emb021

Actually the OA was moved from the National Camping Committee to the Boy Scout Committee in the early 70s, LONG before the change from 'Camping Honor Society' to 'Scouting's Honor Society'. That change occured at the 1998 NOAC. Which is also when they went from the 'MGM Indian Head' to the arrowhead. It was NOT very popular when announced. (I was there) Since this time I have not seen a shift away from camping/camp promotion. Stuff like TOAP (The Outdoor Adventure Place) at NOACs and Jambo is still big. What I have seen is a widening of the OA to include more general service. What I do have a problem with proclaiming the OA as 'Scouting's Honor Society' is they leave out a big part of scouting: Venturing in all this. But that's another topic...

"I did include a few where da BSA itself has institutionalized adult-run elements, eh? Like adults sitting BOR's instead of kids, or adults setting conditions or requirements to be eligible for election as SPL or PL." AFAIK, adults have pretty much been the only ones on BOR. The era of kids being on BOR was brief, and only for T-2-1. I'm not saying they shouldn't be on the board, just that AFAIK, its not BSA policy. As to eligibility requirements, I don't recall what the literature says, but I've always felt this to be something determined by the PLC, not the adults. Many organizations do set some eligibility requirements for officers, usually stuff like a minimum amount of time as member, being in good standing, so having something similiar without being too excess is ok. "The one I hate the most is the adult-run, school-like MB and T-2-1 classes." You'll get no arguement from me about this. To add to what CNYScout said about uniforming. I've found that in units with a strong 'uniforming culture' (everyone understands activity & full uniform- or 'class a' and 'class b' if you want to use those terms), and understands that there are times when one is more appropriate then another, the SPL should be able to set when to do this. I have found that when scouts who come from a unit with poor uniforming cultures and get involved in something that is strong on this (Jamboree, OA, etc), that this can instill this attitude. To a degree it did with me when I was a scout.

To add to scoutldr's comments. Be sure that all the youth clearly understand what the jobs are, what they entail, etc. Too often I think some youth don't want to step up because they have a poor (or incorrect) idea of what the jobs are. Don't assume that you've already done this. You may think you've done this, but in reality they still may not have paid attention, etc.

"Do you mean the Insignia Guide has wrong information, or that it doesn't have the answer to all your questions, or ?" I don't know about wrong info, but I have found that in some cases the information is...incomplete. For instance, the IG is NOT the source for correct Sea Scout uniforming info. You kind of have to learn its 'language' to fully understand it. Some people get a bit confused by what it 'says'. A big mistake people make is taking the attitude of 'where does it say I can't wear X'. The Insignia Guide is more geared to who can wear what where, but often times this isn't as clear as it should be. I've run into a few bad uniforming that is due to misreading the IG. I, too, would love to be involved in a proof reading of the next edition... Probably never happen.

From your list: "Adults select or limit the pool of candidates for troop or patrol positions (including things like rotating New Scout Patrol Leader)." Agree that this is wrong. Except maybe in the case of the New Scout patrol. I think the idea is that the NSPL should change about every month, to give each member a chance to do so (kinda like PL in Wood Badge patrols). Rotating may just make things move along smoother. "Adults require uniforming for various events. " I don't really see a problem with the SM determining the uniform (full or activity, etc), especially in a troop that is poor on proper uniforming. If you have a troop that has a good uniforming culture, then the SPL can do this. "Adults offer MB or T-2-1 classes for advancement. Adults determine the gear patrols can purchase or take on campouts. Adults set expectations for or limitations on outings (1 per month, none in summer, must do summer camp yearly, etc.). Adults require weekly collection of dues. No argument on these items. "Adults set dues amounts." Adults usually have a better idea of what funds are needed for the troop and hopefully set reasonable (not too high) dues amounts, so I don't have too much of an issue with this. "Adults determine participation rules/fund distribution for fundraisers. Adults determine fundraisers. Adults work fundraisers." Again, no issue. I do expect adults to help out at fundraisers. "Adults sign off on T-2-1 advancement. " Unless there is a policy forbidding this, what the issue UNLESS its 'only adults sign off on T-2-1 advancement', which is different and which is incorrect. "Adults sit on Boards of Review. " AFAIK, those are the only one who can be on Boards of Review. Unless something has changed, the day of boy-run BoR is gone. "Adults plan parts (or all) of outings. Adults plan parts (or all) of meetings. Adults determine safety plans/respond to first aid needs/" Only a caveat there that with a new/weak troop, the adults may need to be more involved in this, but should be working toward having the youth do this.

what patch are you refering to? The NCS patch? Not ever attending NCS, this is something I would think they (those who run NCS) would be able to answer. Does the NCS patch signify that you hold a (current) NCS certificate, or that you had (at some time) attending NCS? To me, depending on if its one or the other would answer your question. I will take a look at what it says in the Insignia Guide (which doesn't always have the right answer) to see if it notes any restriction on wearing the NCS patch. Uh, what's wrong with someone wearing 15 knots? If it earned them, it doesn't matter when they were earned. Nothing says you are restricted to only wearing a certain number or only those earned recently. Me, I have 4 knots, which has taken me about 25 years to earn.

Beavah touched on most of the things I would have said. If the SM couldn't have been at the meeting, it was the SM's job to make sure it was covered by his ASM(s). If the SPL was doing his job, he should have known what was going on. If the SPL could not be at the meeting, then it was the SPL's job to make sure his ASPL was prepared to cover him. Finally, (unless I misread your message), its not the job of the Troop Committee to be planning out the month's program/activities. That is the job of the troop's PLC. This is what he mean's by a youth-run program. Now, I don't see a problem with a troop's CC coming in and doing a compass course, so long as it was done in the same spirit of the troop bringing in any kind of 'outside expert'. You're not there to run the meeting, you're just there to do a specific program. But I think ideally, as this is a very 'scouty' thing, its a program I would have prefered the older boys be the ones who planned and run (prehaps prepared before hand with the assistance of said expert).

As noted, "University of Scouting" is very different from council to council. In some councils, its just an annual venue to provide a variety of BSA supplemental training. In some councils, they try to go beyond that, and put together other, additional training. In a very few councils, they try to follow a model similiar to 'College of Commissioner Science' with developed course curriculm, degrees, and the like. Nothing says you have to go to the UoS in your council. I've been going to the UoS program in my old home council for some years, and have worked on the degrees they offer there.

First off (I wasn't going to do this), please get the terms correct. It's Venturing Crew, not Venture Crew. There is no such thing as a 'Venture Scout' in the BSA. They are Venturers. Please look in the Venturer Handbook. It shows the Venturer hand salute. I believe (check the book, am doing this off the top of my head), that as the Venturer Handside has the thumb extended away from the rest of the hand, the salute should be the same way. Frankly, it would be hard to tell. As Venturing Crews define their own uniform, if YOUR Crew's uniform is polo shirts and jeans, then using the Venturing Hand Salure rather then over the heart would be ok. HOWEVER, be advised that some in and out of scouting may not understand this, so be prepared for some to make an issue of it.

Adding to what some of the others have said (background- have been an advisor the OA, Venturing, and my Fraternity). Ideally, advisors advise, they do not lead. Advisors should not do what the youth can/should do. Sadly, some take this to an extreme where advisors should sit in the back and be quite (what I call the 'silent advisor'), which can too often lead to disaster because the advisor(s) do not step in with advise before something gets out of hand. (an even more extreme version of this is when some youth want ALL the adults to leave because they 'fear' being 'intimidated' by the adults. This is just wrong and not what we teach in the BSA or most other groups I've been involved in. Now. Can advisors help the youth? Sure. If they are uncertain of how to run a meeting, having the advisor work with the chair & secretary on putting together an agenda and going over the things to be cover is a good idea. This should not be "tells them they can do that and this is what you will do". That sounds incorrect. I am also concerned about "they are told what they will or will not do". Its one thing to point out what activites aren't allowed per BSA policy, but this sounds like adult control. Direction, to me, is not the same thing.

>Hmmm. OK, I had seen photos of Explorers in the spruce >shirt and trousers. Flipping through Peterson's The Boy >Scouts: An American Adventure there is a photo of an >Explorer in spruce shirt and olive shorts right in the >front. They made spruce green pants, but not shorts. >We never wore uniforms when I was an Explorer in 1976. Your post may have decided not to have 'uniforms', but they existed. Posts could decide their uniform, if any. (sound familiar). The forest green shirt was still an option (it would be dropped for 2 periods). There was also the navy blazer. When the forest green shirt was dropped, the tan shirt was made available as an option.

"A spruce green shirt with olive green shorts. What a fashion faux pas! " Well, today it is. Under Explorers/Exploring they never made spruce green shorts, so you had to wear the boy scout shorts of the time.

(note- am not an eagle scout) To add to what scoutldr said, AFAIK, NESA chapters are part of the local scout community. There are no (have never been) community-based NESA chapters. ALSO (and I may be wrong on this) is that they no longer form NESA Chapters. Those that exist today were created back when they WERE creating them (a hold over from the days of Knights of Dunamis, the NESA forerunner). My understanding is that they (National) no longer allow new ones to be formed. Personally, I think that's wrong. In one council I work with, the NESA chapter has monthly luncheons, and is involved with the annual Eagle Banquet and Eagle Scholarship.

"The A version is what we used in April-May of 2006. If you can find it, you can copy it as it is a bin item. Our CC is on staff this fall- I will ask him what version he is using." I'd prefer getting printed copies vs photocopies. But National seems to only send a limited number of Admin & Staff guides to CD, and you can't seem to be able to order more, so most of the staff gets only photocopies from those sent. When I was at my council's WB breakfast earlier this year, which was also the same weekend as this year's staff development, I checked some of the staff course binders to check the bin numbers to see if there were new version out. Thus I know they were using the C revision of the Admin guide.

FWIW- Lastest version of the Wood Badge Administrative Guide is #18-591C (2006). Good luck trying to get a copy. Have been tried to get a copy of the latest version to 'keep up' with the changes with little luck.

As Lisabob has pointed out, there have been small changes in the 21CWB course of the last few years. When I staffed it in 04, the staff had to have 'striped' uniforms. This has been since dropped. We also did the changing of the loops during the course for troop guides (the rest of the staff used whatever loops they would normally wear). I know that as part of the recent revamp that staff indicate their positions with their nametags, not with patches on their striped uniforms, so I don't know if they have also dropped the loop changing as well for TGs. Someone with more recent staff experience (and access to the latest Admin Guide) should be able to answer this.

"Can a Venturer who is dual registered in a Boy Scout troop wear red shoulder loops on green? " No. Red is specifically proscribed on the green uniform. Only green, silver and gold loops are worn on it. "Can a Venturer who is dual registered in a Troop wear his SPL position patch on his green Venturing shirt?" No. A better reason is that his Venturing uniform shows is position in the Crew, not also his position in the Troop. Now, this wasn't so in the past when Explorer Crews were allowed in Troop, but as Troops and Crews are separate units, no longer. "Do kids wear a baseball team cap with their soccer uniform?" "What's the difference for OA? It's still wearin' one program's uniform item (Boy Scouting) on another program's uniform (Venturing)." Wrong view. Its incorrect to speak of the OA as being only the Boy Scout program. What about adults who are in Cub Scouting who are Arrowmen? By your logic they aren't allowed to wear the OA flap on their Cub Scouter uniform. What about adults above the unit level who are Arrowmen? Many of them are no involved specifically in the Boy Scout program. Are they too barred from wearing the OA flap? "As for adults, I'm a firm believer that those of us who work multiple programs should set the example of good uniformin', by havin' an appropriate uniform for each of the programs we serve, with patches and knots specific to that program and no "excess insignia." " I would only agree with that in concerns with position/program specific items. For instance, if you are involved at the district or council level as well as will a unit, don't mix unit numbers with district/council patches. I do not view patches like Jamboree, knots, or even the OA as being 'program specific' in this sense, or that they should be restricted to wearing on a particular uniform for a particular program. Now, if YOU wish to not wear something on a particular uniform, that's your choice. But there is nothing wrong with wearing the OA flap (or any knots) on any BSA uniform.

"Other than the Red Cross ers and the High Adventure ers, what other focuses are there for Crews? This is interesting. " The options are big. The only area we don't get into is 'career stuff'. that's what Exploring is for. Venturing Crews fall into one of the following groups: * Outdoor * Arts & Hobbies * Sports * Religious Life * Sea Scouting (you may notice we have 5 Bronze awards, each matching them, and that we have 'expert awards' built around 4 of them). While Outdoor crews are the biggest group, within each area are a lot of options. This is a list of specialty codes that Crews used to be registered under. It gives you can idea of the kind of specialty that most crews build themselves around. http://usscouts.org/venturing/specialcode.html Adding to John-in-KC's comments. Don't allow this crew to be an exclusive club for this initial kids. Make sure they are bringing new people on board, otherwise the crew will die after they all age out.

I hope you've gotten your hands on the Venturing literature and educated yourself on what Venturing is (and isn't). At a minimum get the Venturing Leader Guide and Venturer Handbook. Be sure you have the minimum number of youth to have a crew. CRITICAL is to have a 'focus' to your crew. What is it that defines your crew. A theme. Better defined your purpose it, the better it is the explain to others what your crew is/does and entice others to join. Having a theme in no way prevents you from doing other things. Being a high adventure crew, for instance, does not prevent your crew from going out for bowling one night. I'm an advisor in Venturing, OA, and my Fraternity. I spent some time writting up some stuff on advising for what I hope will be a new revision of the Venturing adult training. I always say that advisors advise, they do not lead (or run) things. When I work with the youth I do, I always try to make it clear that what I am giving them is advise, and they are free to use or not use the advise I give. The only exception to this is when I am not giving advise, but informing them of the policy/rules we must follow. I have found that too often the youth are not aware of the rules, and sometimes we as adults need to bring this to their attention. Always be able to back up what you tell them, in case they wonder if you are not just trying to get your way and claiming its the rules. Just as leaders will moderate their involvement with their followers as the situational (and their level of development) determines it (this is known as 'situtational leadership'), so too must advisors moderate their involvement with their 'advisees'. There are extremes of being too involved (at worse you have ceased to be an advisor and are now running things) to being too uninvolved (at worse you aren't there to catch them when they fall and fall badly). Its not an exact 'science'. One person's 'too involved' is another person's 'just right' and another's 'not enought'. You MUST be willing to step back. Some advisors loose sight of this in being 'one of the gang'. There are times when we should be part of the gang, and times when we should let them do their thing with out us around. At the begining, you may need to be more hands on, as you help the youth learn what they need to do. Then you need to start stepping back. During down times you can bring people aside to give advise, but try to stay in the back. While its great to get to a point in which you can just sit in the back and give advise only when asked, you NEED to build a repour with the youth BEFORE they will be willing to ask for that advise. If you are NOT involved with the youth, they will not get to know you (or trust you) and they will not seek out your advise. This is only possible when you work alongside with them. I think some advisors loose sight of this. hope this helps.

"This unit needs a visit from its UC in a most serious fashion forgive me but what is UC. My guess Unit committee / Unit Commissioner " UC is Unit Commissioner. One seldom speaks of a 'unit committee'. Usually we speak of a Pack Committee, Troop Committee, Crew Committee, etc. In Scouting, the Commissioner Service is the 'third leg' of the scouting support structure (along with the volunteer scouters that make up the various district/council committees and the professional scouters). Commissioner Service is all about service to the unit and ensuring 'quality control'. It's the Unit Commissioner who comes by the units and sees how things are doing, helps the unit leaders 'deliver the promise' and works to fix problems. Whether that's making sure the unit leader(s) get needed training or making sure they are doing things the right way. The advise is that since things aren't being done right, your UC needs to help get them on the right track. "Next week, I also need to ask the CC/Treasurer, what the patch on her shoulder mean District Committee guessing that may be another position that she holds? " If your Troop Committee Chair/Treasurer is ALSO a District Committee member (either of the District Committee itself or of a committee within the District), I would hope this was also clear by the fact they wear silver loops and no unit number with their District Committee patch. Sounds like not only is this person filling 2 positions in your troop, but is holding another 'hat' in the District. If the person has the time to do so, that's fine. But I always try to wear the uniform that's appropriate for the duty I am fulfilling. If I am a unit scouter, and doing my job as a unit scouter, I wear my uniform to show this. If I ALSO am a scouter at other levels, I would only wear my uniform that shows this when I am doing those jobs. In short, your CC/Treasurer when they show up at your meetings, they should be doing their role of CC/Treasurer, and wear a uniform that shows that (red loops, unit number, Troop Committee Chair patch on, etc)

Skill Awards. I earned them as a scout. I remember going to the 1981 jamboree and having several foreign scouts check out my skill awards on my web belt. Skill Awards were rolled out as part of the 'relavent' scouting program of the early 70s. They finally got rid of them around 1989/90 or so. They were sort of replaced with the 'instant recognition kit'. Hillcourt wanted to get rid of them when he came back and revamped the book in the late 80s, but wasn't able to. He is quoted as saying he wanted to fill a boxcar with all of them and dumb the lot...

Roundtables should always be separate. Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and Venturing Roundtables should be held at the same time and place, but each should met in separate rooms. Its one thing for everyone to come together for 15-20 for common info, but after that should be in there separate rooms. The goal should be to have a Venturing Roundtable in every district. Reality is this is not possible in many districts or councils, SO the idea is to have a council-wide Venturing Roundtable (maybe quartetly or bi-monthly), with the aim that as the numbers increase in districts to encourage the formation of district Venturing roundtable (or have 2-3 districts 'team up' for this). Getting a Roundtable together is a good way to get a VOA going. As you bring together the Venturing youth, give them the idea of getting a VOA/Cabinet to start planning the program of the Roundtable and getting council events going. Recruit additional adults to help with this. This is NOT a one-man operation.

MarkS's question gets off the topic of this thread, but by and large the CC and Committee Members really have no involvement in the program of the troop. They are there to support the SM and ASMs in delivering the program. Most scouts should be pretty much oblivious to the existance of the TC, except when it comes time to have board of reviews. They would typically see these people as additional adults that might help out with things like COH, fundraisers or service projects and the like, but again, for the boys, more in the background (as opposed to the SM & ASM). As a kid, I had little knowledge of the troop committee or its members. When I was an adult, I was more aware of them, but their work was to support me as an ASM. They helped out, but not to take over from the SM.

I have never been at a Pack or Troop meeting that did not have both an American and Unit Flag. Most Sea Scout Ships have a Unit Flag. Not so much Venturing Crews, only because most don't follow a standard meeting. At a recent Council Scout Show, they had all the unit flags arranged in a big circle around the 'central stage' area. I had never seen so many Ship flags together in one place (we had about a half dozen ships in attendence). I have never heard of troop that didn't have a troop flag. Regardless of the cost, its just one of those things that every troop works to get. If the CO can't buy one for the troop, usually they fundraise to get one. Same goes for an American flag.

They are different things for different (but releated) purposes. Roundtable is an event. Its on-going training. A youth cabinet (or VOA), is a group of Venturers who come together to plan and carry out the Venturing program at the council & district. A Venturing Roundtable (there is a book covering this) is a venue in which Venturing youth and adults (yes, unlike Cub Scout & Boy Scout Roundtables, Venturing RT include the youth) come together to get program information (gives them a reason to come), share ideas and the like. You can have youth & adult break outs (giving them separate but related program), or keep them together. Your Youth Cabinet (VOA, or whatever you want to call it) should be made up of atleast 1 youth representative from each crew, under the leadership of elected youth officers and guidence from adult advisors. The Youth Cabinet should be planning and carrying out district/council Venturing events, which can include your Roundtables, but also weekend Venturing events (Venturing Camporees if you will), Venturing training events (VLSC, etc), organize council Venturing contingents to high adventure bases, organize participation by Venturers in council events like Scout Shows, etc. The 'Here's Venturing' booklet has a chapter on Teen Leader Councils, which is the term National used for such groups (depite the fact that the National one is called a Cabinet and most council seem to prefer Venturing Officer Associations. There are some sample bylaws, so understand that each council is free to organize a Cabinet/VOA/TLC as they wish.