Eagledad

When I was SM, our troop averaged around 10 adults at every camp out. We are a very boy run program, so those adults knew they weren't hanging around interfering with the scouts. Oh, if the program allowed them to participate (like shooting sports or bicycling or something fun) without intruding on the patrol's patrol method, they could be seen in the mix. But in general, the adults weren't in sight of the boys. So where were they? 40% of our scouts were 14 and older. I once polled them to learn exactly what kept them hanging around. Only 25% said it was the outdoors adventure part of the program. So why did the rest of them hang around? Are the 14 and older scouts much different from the adults that came on our camp outs? I was very active in the Scuba Diving Explorers for a couple of years. I had so much fun with that Post, but because of the cost of travel for diving, I attended very few scuba outings. I just enjoyed hanging out with adults who liked the water. I was the president of your collegiate flying club. We were very active, to the point of presenting airshows that included the Thunderbirds and Confederate Air Force. Over 60% of our officers and most active members were not pilots. There are a lot of theories on older scouts and keeping them around, but I learned the hard way that all of us are adults. Some of us just have more of life's experiences than others. But, we are all adults. So, why do we struggle to treat the 14 year old scouts equal to parent age adults in the troop, or even Crews? The adults in our troop just wanted to hang out with like minded people in the out doors. No real agenda, just hang out. The other 3/4 of our older scouts just wanted to hang out with like minded people in the out doors. Is there no room in the Troop/Venturing program for scouts to just hang out with scouts? Does there always have to be some agenda to sway, coax, or bribe scouts to come? 3 out of 5 Venturing crews fail after three years. Most troops loose 90% of their 15 and older scouts. Ironically, the most adults of failed Venturing Crews came from Troops of failed older scout programs. The challenge for the parent age adults is building a troop/venturing program where young adult scouts can sometimes just hang out with their like mind friends without any agenda intended to bribe them there. Barry

OK, then 99.99 percent of women don't have a youth boy scout experience. All women have a lot to offer. I have raised and trained many good female leaders. Many. And many of them have more to offer than men (Well yes, because I trained them). But, we have found that a Troop without experienced adults take twice as long to get up to speed as units with even just one experienced scouter. Youth experience can make that much difference. I used to teach teachable moments in our council. I didn't call the course that, but the material was exactly what qwazse described. Learn how to not let your fears stop the boys experience. Little by little everyday. Some men needed the course as much as women. But in general, all moms needed the course. I believe you are being overly sensitive, would it feel better to talk about scouters as "X"s and "O"s? Well I guess now "Z"s too. As you are learning, running a quality program is hard. It requires adults questioning and evaluating all the time how the program is moving. An adult run troop is a lot easier than a patrol method troop because controlling a herd in one corral is easier than working with each individual scout in the open field at their maturity and pace. Do you really want you make it harder by believing in the good-ol-boys are out to get you? I assure you good-ol-boys clubs are few and very far between. As you gain experience in this scouting stuff, a light bulb is going to open your eyes. You will see that boys really are different than girls, even as adults. And, working with those differences is a lot easier than working against them. I know you think you understand the differences now, but if you did, you wouldn't let the little truths bother you. You would use them to make the rough road of the bigger picture smoother. Barry

Ok, I’m sure you’re right. But when I meet a new mom in the troop, I’m 100 % sure she doesn’t have any Boy Scout youth experience. With dads, I start by asking if. You may feel that’s a bad rap, but how does a unit deal the situation if they aren’t willing to admit reality. That being said, I’m guessing the discussions here of problematic adult leaders are 4 men to every woman. Barry

I’m a little surprised you took issue with teachable. You have been on this forum long enough to see that we harp on this very thing a lot. The adults have to learn more and learn faster than the scouts just to stay out of their way. And scouters without a youth scouting experience are double the risk because they don’t know what to look for from the youths perspective. Adults simply have different ambitions than youth at this age and if an adult can’t calm their pride with humility, they will take the fun out of the scouts program. Qwazse colors “teachable” very well: I used to teach in scoutmasters fundamentals that fear is the main cause of adult directed boy run programs. The adults have push gradually push past their fears. Many here, including moderaters and forum owner, don’t care for my opinions on the subject of girls, but am skeptical because the program has struggled with the last influx of inexperienced adults. Pride and ignorance are hard hurdles to overcome. Barry

100% agree. I have several stories of extremely shy, introverted or learning disabled scouts who turned into inspiring leaders simply because they displayed great confidence. Another way to identify confident scouts is to observe who the new scouts like to hang around. Instinctive nature drives those with no confidence to seek safe shelter of strength. Confidence is an instinctive show strength. When I was a young scout, Arrowmen where very confident outdoorsmen. The OA requirements of that time sorted out super scouts from the scouts. They were special and always had the natural following of young scouts. Barry

I had a rough drive to work this morning, thanks for bringing me calm. I believe Kimberlee's article is profound for scouting. Independence is the path to confidence. Confidence leads to initiating actions and making decisions toward set goals. I am amazed with the number of boys who join our troop that lack the confidence to step forward with any decisions. Scouting develops self-confidence through the path of independence. We watch it everyday. Adults today understand how independence leads to self-confidence, but they don't trust it. They put independence off until they feel their scouts are more mature. Ironic because that is putting the cart before the horse. The McCafferty story is intriguing because Kimberlee sees how the tiny independent actions in the 8 Methods are actually the big steps toward confidence of stepping forward in life's challenges. Give the naive shy new scout a quick guide for cold calling adult strangers in the MB process, and he learns the big skill of communicating with strangers. Oh, the parents may need to practice the guide before the call, but the true independent actions change the scout forever, if only just a little. In our minds, learning the skill and building the confidence of communicating with strangers is far more valuable for an 11 year old than the MB skills he is taking. We found that 3 MBs was all most scouts needed for the confidence of calling strangers. That same scout will be calling strangers for scouting events the rest of his scouting career. And even learning the basic scout skills develops the habits toward independence and confidence. We don't sit new scouts down and teach them knots, we get them to set a goal for initiating the process for learning the knots and completing that goal. The goal for the first knot is very simple like learning the square knot in the next hour. Most important however, is the big step of independence by initiating that goal by simply asking to learn the knot. Of course as the skills get harder and more complicated, setting a goal of learning the skill and developing a plan becomes more complicated. So, we guide scouts to write down the goals in their books. That way they can review and remind themselves of their goals. The SM can review their goals at a SM Conference. But, the simple skill of learning to initiate a process to a goal leads to a proficient 14 year old Scout planning a weekend camp out for his Patrol. I've watch that process repeat itself hundreds of times. Older Scouts who joined our troop without those developed skills are often intimidated with the expectations and responsibilities of our scouts the same age. Developing the confidence to step out of a comfort zone starts simply by giving the scouts the independence to practice initiating the tiny decisions. Maturity is the result of the confidence gained by the little decisions, not the mastery of the skills. Developing maturity is the result of a program the adults develop for practicing independence. It's not easy for the adults, but the efforts are rewarding. Good article. Barry

The only badge I encourage the first year is swimming because it’s required for most water activities. And, summer camps have pretty good teachers. I had several scouts start camp as a beginner and leave passing the swim test. Barry

True, but who goes where and when can be confusing for unit level volunteers. One example is the Webelos requirement to fill out a Troop application and talk to a SM. Not a big deal on the surface, but some Scoutmasters might submit those applications, not realizing (or don't care), that the Webelos is no longer a member of the pack. And officially the scout can no longer earn anymore badges, like AOL. Luckily, council goes in a fixes the problem. But, the numbers are shifted. That's not too bad, but where the numbers really get messed around are the new Scouts joining the troops. In reality, the scout submitted the troop application without ever showing up. That scout will be counted as a successful crossover and stay on the books for possibly up to a year. Same goes with Troop to Venturing. That can change the troop membership numbers as much as 5% in a district, and more in a unit. Add it up for a council, or even the nation, and it influences decisions. I know the Council Pros get acussed of fudging the numbers for their own benefit, but I always had compassion for them having to run around looking for the holes in their numbers. Barry

Good or Bad? The discussion isn't about making good or bad decisions. It's about the accuracy of information being provided for making decisions. Barry

We fully understand your pain the last few years. The difference between explaining the situation logically, or emotional, is the same difference as being scout-like, or not. Email might be a good segway into the discussion because it provides you the time to be pragmatic with your thoughts. Barry

Many here have expressed how the successful recruiting is motivational for progressing forward. Several have commented how they plan to implement the girls and the leaders into units, and types of units. Barry

And this is why I don't trust published membership numbers. I will even give the pros the benefit of the doubt and say there are no shenanigans going on, but the shuffling of memberships in different units at different times of the years blurs out reality. It drives the district member committees nuts, especially if when using the numbers to plan program gains and looses like Tigers, Webelos Crossovers, and first year Scout dropouts. I don't trust the new girls published numbers as a result of my experience. Just look at the discussions on this forum to see how those numbers are being used both tactically and motivationally for future planning. National got away with inaccuracies in the past because the deep pockets funding and large membership compensated for bad program planning. But the BSA may have lost their safety nets. Good luck. Barry

So very sad. I will say that I have felt hostility toward white and religious people from members on this forum. If it's here on this forum, it is certainly out in the community. Our troop once experienced this sort of tension when visiting a popular zoo in another state. In general, wearing the BSA uniform brings out the best of people we meet in our travels, but not during this visit. That was about 15 years ago. I can't imagine such a visit today. Yes, in the light of the scout law, we should probably prepare the scouts in how to respond to this sort of open hostility and confrontation. Barry

It was the brainchild of a couple of scoutmasters with a good reputation for building successful patrol method programs. The way it worked is after all the participants (14 or over) arrived at camp, the course SM asked all the scouts to create PLCs of 6 members. No scouts from the same troop could be in the same PLC. Then each PLC had to elect the SPL and assign a PLC position to each member. Once all the participants had a PLC and position (only took about 15 minutes), the SM gave a 15 minute lesson of how to run the PLC meeting that was also described in their SPL handbook. then they were tasked to create the course agenda for the next day that included everything from getting up to lights out. The only requirement was scheduling 4 one hour class sessions, 2 more PLC meetings and a campfire or troop meeting. Each of the PLCs agendas were thrown in a hat, then the one drawn out was the agenda that is used with that PLCs Spl running the agenda. It made for an interesting week, and the SMs gave the results rave reviews. However, National required we replace it with their brand new course, NYLT. And the experiment was over. Most of the staff were graduates from the National JLT course at Philmont. They had a blast playing the adult leader parts. Barry

Like all committees and organizations, the quality of performance is only as good as its leaders. An example of what the committee can do is how we approached teaching the new SM Specific course in 2000. Council presented the course when it was introduced to see how well it was written. It was terrible. Roughly a 9 hr course divided in three parts that had no flow and often contradicted each other. (I had learned later that the three parts were written by three different “volunteers “ authors who never met each other. They sent their parts to National who wrote the final syllabus.) Anyway, our council training committee discussed ideas of how to better present the material. We came up with several ideas for presenting the course better, which several districts (including ours) experimented with. And several good versions were discovered. Now, I know a couple of districts would have tried something on their own (including ours), but because council took the lead, all the districts were presented with the results of several different versions. I was also lead on experimenting with a new idea of a Council JLT course. The new idea was a boy run style where the participants developed the course syllabus and schedule each day. The course was replaced by NYLC, but I have not ever seen anything like it before or since. A lot of folks seem to be trying to fix a lot of problems on this forum lately. If you have the will and personality, council is one of many paths to effectively make change. Barry

You have the most leverage to make changes at the council level. But you have to have the respect of the committee.

Funny, I just finished posting on a different subject about this very thing. It's hard for the average unit volunteer to grasp the idea of incompetent adults being put in positions of responsibility. But, in volunteer organizations, it's closer to normal than you want to know. Just ask any church leader. Once you see it from the District and council levels, you start to have empathy for the paid scouters who spend much of their time cleaning up after these volunteers. Many DEs burnout because they would rather do the work for the volunteer instead of worrying if the work was getting done. Barry

Yes, there are all kinds of adults in volunteer positions. For that particular post, I was referring to adults who jump into a volunteer position purely for the stature of the title. It makes them feel good about themselves. You can find them in all positions in volunteer organizations. We talk about them a lot here on the forum in the CM, SM and CC positions because the level of responsibility is so high and important. But there are plenty of volunteers like this under the ASM and committee member titles. They likely don't have the skills for the responsibility, but don't really care because what they wanted was the title. They will try to perform to the best of their ability, but their skills fall well short. If left alone, they often do more harm than good. These are the volunteers that district committees seem to attract, I don't know why. I found they can do a lot of good when they are given step-by-step instructions. I was close to a situation where a district committee chairman was awarded the the Silver Beaver for bringing a complicated district program online. We all knew she was just a puppet for someone who'd rather stay in the shadows of recognition, but she did work very hard none-the-less. The Silver Beaver is the highlight of her life. Barry

Thanks, that fills in the picture pretty good. Some adults aren't cut out for the responsibilities of a Scoutmaster. And some of them just don't see it. I have worked with several Scoutmasters who believe, with all their heart, that the independence of making decisions in a patrol environment is the best kind of experience a boy can have for his future as a man. But, they don't have a picture of what that independence looks like for scouts this age. In many cases, narcissism drives them to some degree. While they nobly take the responsibility to better the lives of these young men, their egos drive them to force the scouts to perform to their vision of the ideal boy scout. Since narcissists generally believe they are always right, they aren't usually open to suggestions. They truly believe their way is the best way and will drive the scouts to think and do it that way. I personally believe it is mild form of mental illness. On the positive side, many of these leaders are good at marketing their vision and tend to build large units. Typically adult run Eagle mills, which makes sense. But successful none the less. Barry

Everyone here is ready to take this guy out to the woodshed, but I'm wondering about the rest of his Scoutmastering style. Do the scouts like him? Is he as controlling with the patrols as he is with service projects? Do the adults like him? Does he get along with the committee or does he run it? I'm just being nosy, I know. But we have been pulled into this drama to the point of testing our scout-like patience. What does the bigger picture look like? Barry

I have concluded that 50 percent of leaders volunteer for this reason. This is why I have so much sympathy for the DEs. Barry

Hmm, is anyone surprised that litigation is killing youth programs? Barry

Your troop is in a rut and needs a little outside shaking up. It's normal because the male human mammal is by nature...lazy. It's ok, that is our nature, I hear male lions are even worse. Lucky beast. But, the good news is we males are also attracted to adventure. Adventure can mean anything really; a troop doesn't have to hike the Grand Canyon for adventure. I have no problem with adults adding a little boost to the program when they do it passively. First off, change the troop meetings around for a couple of weeks. Meet somewhere else. In better weather, I like to push the scouts to plan something at a local park. Orienteering is really good because it makes the scouts hike off on their own looking using the compass to find the end goal. Which could be a treat. But this time of year, I might suggest a bowling ally or skating rink. Sure, why not. OK, you said the camp outs are boring. It's not that the adults don't have creative ideas, it's that you aren't sure how to push the PLC to try a few ideas. Call the SPL and ask him to allow you 15 minutes of their time. Don't tell him you brought a guest who is an expert in fly fishing, shot gun sports, rappelling, competitive archery, or even building hot rods. Then, go out and find that expert and come up with some kind of weekend activity that the troop can do two or three troop meetings to prepare for. We did this with Rappelling. We found a couple of rappelling experts who helped us train the scout for two troop meetings, then worked with us for a full Saturday at a state park where we camped. But you could do it with shooting experts or fishing experts, or whatever you come up with. Have your expert give a 15 minute presentation for the PLC and then suggest they kick around ideas for using your expert for a FUN campout. You can do this with anything really, but the objective is to shake up things to get the PLC out of their rut. Barry

Call a local troop and ask if they can help you. This is easy for most PLCs because they plan whole weekends of activities for the same skills. The Webs will enjoy older Scouts running the activities and the troop will look forward to new recruits. We pretty much let our scouts do it all without any adults. Barry

When our scouts earn their 1st class, they are eligible to sign off advancement if they take a couple of simple 5 minute training courses. One was writing a legible signature and date. Yes, that 5 minute course was a reaction. The other was a process for teaching. Basically it was: 1. Give your name, 2. Give the name of the skill you are teaching 3. Explain why and when to use the specific skill, and list the resource references. 4. Teach the skill until the student teaches it back to the teacher. I learned those 4 simple teaching guidelines at the old pre 21st Century Woodbadge course. When the Scouts were preparing for their EBOR, I usually suggested reviewing the "whys" of the skills since they couldn't be retested on demonstrating them. Barry