Eagledad

In the old days, the response was first class scouts are trained for survival in the woods. There is very little the adults can add that the trained first class scout doesn’t already know. Many adults today don’t understand the trained skills of a true first class scout. Ive told this story before: our senior scouts set up a simulated car wreck for the rest of the troop hiking to the campsite. As the scouts realized they were walking into a very serious accident, they hesitated at first, then walked quickly to the scene. Once they realize the scene was set up, you could feel the relief. The senior scouts spent another 45 minutes reviewing the fake injuries and then we hiked another mile to camp. But the troop was the first to arrive on a roll over accident on our way to summer camp Two months later. We had a couple of doctors who attended the victims while the rest of us kept the scouts back to prevent them from getting hit by another car. I will never forget a scout who looked at me and said, “you train us for this and then won’t let us help.” The scouts were trained and ready. Make your parents proud of their sons by training them for the unexpected. barry

I have often bragged that my dad was a 16 year old SM. It was the middle of WWII and there weren’t any male adults around to lead. My dad worked a deal with my grandpa that if he would sign all the paperwork, my dad would do the rest. And he wasn’t the only one, I met another adult who was a 16 year old SM of a troop that couldn’t find a volunteer in their small town. He was one of the best trainers I’ve ever worked with. Maybe we adults are making this Scouting stuff too hard. Barry

Hmm, so who dictates which laws are ok to break. Parents, SM, CC? Do the authority’s really care? Barry

The SM Confrence is symbolic. It doesn’t prevent the scout from the Eagle. But symbology is everything on this situation. The SM is the gatekeeper for integrity of the honor. In my experience, the reputation of the scout likely preceded this bad choice. The troop probably already knows their choice. Barry

Vision at your age might sound trivial, but we humans find noble idealism hard to argue against. Adults on one hand want the fun of scouting, and on the other hand they like purpose with their fun. Even the best scoutmasters has to learn how to justify the fun for the noble cause. Barry

Two ways to drive positive team building is working under the strict conditions of time and competition. In other words, strict agendas and patrol competitions. I learned recently these are the same conditions used in training Special Forces teams. Nothing motivates change like a sense of failure. So build a rigid agenda that forces patrol to work as a team to succeed. Not so rigid the fun is taken out of the activity, but enough to force actions to accomplish success. First, every activity should have an agenda set by time. Especially troop meetings, PLC meetings and camp outs. Our SPL calls the SM the night before the meetings to give his agenda. And he gives the SM a camp out agenda at the Troop meeting before the camp out. Giving to SM the agenda ahead of time is just good policy to give adults a heads up. But, more importantly, it also holds the SPL accountable. 😉 Our patrols were taking two hours to break camp because they hated the task and nothing was driving them to be more efficient. Also, some of that Patrols were stopping for a junk food break on the way home. Parents were complaining of waiting longer than been scheduled, so I gave them the SPLs phone number. He found a sudden motivation to ban junk food stops until patrols broke camp fast enough to get home at the posted time. The patrols manage to reduce breaking camp to 40 minutes. Time is my favorite motivator. As for competition, there are many ways for patrols to complete, but a great one that requires team work and time are patrol inspections. If a patrol has one hour from getting up to assembly, they have to work as a team to cook, kp, clean camp, and prepare tents for inspection. I also used time and patrol peer pressure on our NYLT (JLTC for us) courses. Works very well to push a bunch of scouts who don’t know each other to come together as a team. These are just a couple of examples, but time and peer pressure motivates patrol teamwork a lot better than whining adult leaders. I learned over time to motivate patrol success without being the bad guy. Barry

The Troop QM is important in our troop because he practices the skills of teaching, organization and responsibility of the troop storage unit and trailer. He works with the patrol guide teaching them how to take care of their equipment, and organizes them for maintaining the gear, which includes loading and unloading. Our adults have learned to not get anywhere near the trailer when the QM is around because they only get in the way. I challenge any troop to beat the timeliness and organization of loading and unloading our trailer and storage unit. He manages the organization of the storage unit and keeping it clean and organized. But, just as important, the Troop QM is the only person who can allow access to the storage unit and trailer. Unless the world is coming to and end, his keys are the only keys used. The Troop QM is also responsible for hitching up the trailer to the cars. He verifies the driver is qualified, and then instructs the driver on the process for hitching the trailer up to the car. If the scout cannot go on the campout, he makes sure a qualified trained scout will be attend. This is typical when a crew uses the trailer. Because of the level of responsibility, I personally consider the Troop QM a required prerequisite for SPL, unless the SPL candidate can convince me otherwise, which has happened. Barry

When our troop grew to 100 scouts, the PLC was overwhelmed with the responsibility using the old standard troop assignments, so they added two more ASPLs. And that fixed their problem for about 18 months. Then I was approached by the SPL who told me I would be mad because he removed the two ASPL positions. Hey, I'm always impressed with scouts making executive decisions. I wasn't mad, I was proud. The SPL was pretty sharp and knew how to run a more efficient program. But, we really did need those added responsibilities at the time the PLC created them. What I'm saying is the needs and requirements of the patrols change over time, so we shouldn't be surprised when job structure changes to fit the immediate needs. My scouts will tell you that I want is for each scout to grow from their experience. If they are bored, something needs to change. And if the leadership is overwhelmed, something also needs to change. Fixed job structures aren't a bad thing for starters, but scouts should learn to adapt and not be afraid of change. Truth is, scouts by nature will adapt and change, because by nature, they like to take the path of least resistance. It's the adults that tend to be rigid and obstructing change. They don't see the patrols day to day struggles, and it is easier keeping track of a familiar structure. They also like the path of least resistance. Barry

Exactly, which is why I posted Parkmans quote. In fact, how a scout responds to imperfection is the foundation of the program. The more bad decisions a scout makes during his scouting career, the more likely he will develop habits to resist bad choices in his future. But, nobody is perfect all the time. We have to be able to justify our decisions to the community as well as ourselves. We have to be gatekeepers to the prestige, honor and idealism of the Eagle, but that doesn't mean fight to the death with our personal convictions, biases and experiences. There is a lot that has to be considered when conflicts upset obvious choices. Barry

I wish real life were that simple. What if a mother interrupted the board to explain how this scout bullied their child recently? What if a someone walked through the door to announce the scout had once threatened them with a knife. What if the board discovered the scout was a member of the KKK? You still want to hang your reputation on the SM sign off, or prevent an embarrassing injustice? It's the community we have to justify our decisions, not just the scout's family, troop, or even district. I've personally been in the middle of this very situation as a SM, but if you read my initial response on it, I'm saying it really depends on a lot of factors. And some of the responses on this forum to me are kind of scary. I think Parkman provides some quidance: From 8.0.1.2 What Should Be Discussed A Scout may be asked where he learned his skills and who taught him, and what he gained from fulfilling selected requirements. The answers will reveal what he did for his rank. It can be determined, then, if this was what he was supposed to do. Discussion of how he has lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in his home, unit, school, and community should be included. We must remember, however, that though we have high expectations for our members, as for ourselves, we do not insist on perfection. A positive attitude is most important, and that a young man accepts Scouting’s ideals and sets and meets good standards in his life. Barry

Well, I think the discussion has gotten silly. You are justifying bad behavior because you didn't get caught. That's integrity! Handing in your badge, is that an adult temper tantrum? If you really believe your bad behavior is justification for qualification Eagle, I think you should hand your metal back? So let's hash this out, is there any action you feel that a scout might have done to disqualify him from the honor of Eagle like selling drugs, bullying, or threatening physical harm with a weapon? Anything? The Eagle represents integrity, and as far as I can find, the BSA doesn't list actions of integrity beyond the broad definitions of the Law and Oath. Are you suggesting that should mean anything goes? If not, just say so so we don't have to ridicule those who might disagree with your personal list of immoral exceptions. I have had to deal with Eagle candidates who were caught doing what many in the community consider immoral and the discussion is a lot more complicated than, "It's OK by me, that should make it ok for you". To the community, the Eagle is an ideal of above average character and integrity. It represents a higher (almost unreachable) idealism that most parents want for their kids. It's not an idealsim of the average person, but of someone who stands above the crowd and models the idealist actions of good citizens and leaders of the community. Once we start denigrating that community expectation with shallow exceptions, then eventually the prestige of the idealism fades into insignificance. The Eagle will have no more honor to the community than the 2nd Class rank. It will just mean time spent with one of those after school outdoor youth clubs. Maybe I'm being unfair, but I've had to deal with some of these challenges as a Scoutmaster and I find denigrating others to justify my personal opinion immature, if not hostile. These are serious conflicts for many families. To trivialize behaviors that tear families and communities apart is just as unworthy of the Eagle, if not more. I had to struggle with most of these challenges, not only with the Troop leadership, but the troop parents and district leaders. It's very sobering measuring right, wrong, immorality, and questionable behavior with the community watching. Who am I to decide right and wrong? Barry

It's really not a camporee as we think of camporees, it's closer to wilderness reenactment. It's watching reenactors, selling and trading trinkets. Our troop goes often and the scouts just have fun. It's usually below freezing and often snowing. I have not been in a while, so others can fill in, but our scouts have always enjoyed it. Barry

So, you have no judgement of behavior that would deny an Eagle, pushing drugs, bullying, threatening physical harm with a weapon, or just lying about passing requirements to get the Eagle. Ah, it keeps coming back to religion as if religion is a disqualification for judging behavior. Do you really believe there isn't a single non-religious who believes premarital sex is very wrong? You've set yourself up for hypocrisy because everyone's conscious comes from somewhere, one day you will have to justify your yours. They will ask, "what makes you so high and mighty judging the behavior of someone else's son?" Discounting ones judgment on the single bases of religion borders on bigotry. If you can't express an opinion without denigrating others for their opinion, then you're no better than your derogatory words. The religious person judges behavior equally among all people. Your opinion comes off personal and prejudice. Next time, just simply say you disagree with how they handled the situation. Barry

The reason treks expose leadership so profoundly is because the crew is experiencing a relationship in one week that takes almost six months to develop in normal patrol activities. Adults really struggle with the shift of behavior. Scouts will figure things out, but it's more emotional than adults like. Barry

Since I'm just used to how our district performs EBORs, explain to me the difference between council members and volunteers? All our EBOR members are volunteers, but they are trained and that is their responsibility. Is that the same? Barry

Yes, but as you pointed out, that is not the same as the proficiency of first class skills. Merit badges were introduced for a very different purpose than first class skills. First class skills are required for safe camping in the wilderness. You want the scouts to be proficient because their lives may depend on it. By the way, when did the BSA quit being a proficiency program? I have not heard that. Barry

Leadership style used to be instructed as proper application to the situation. However, I've observed in the last 30 or so years certain leadership styles being pushed for most, if not all, situations. The change was certainly noticeable in the 21st Century Wood Badge. But, it's not just scouts, I've seen the trend in business as well. It can be a problem in a patrol method program because humans and events require different styles of leadership to maintain positive momentum of a team. A dictatorship style isn't required very often to motivate a team, but if you want to have a laugh, observe the adults of troops breaking camp at your next camporee or summer camp to notice the sudden shift into a dictator style leadership. We often talk about a Servant Style Leadership on this forum, and I think most of us know what we are talking about. But in truth, "Taking care of your scouts" requires creativity and adjusting styles of leadership because people's demeanor changes from one day to the next. Motivating multiple personalities toward a common goal requires multiple styles of leadership. Qwazse mentioned high adventure in his post; I'm not sure there is a better arena in the scouting program to watch leadership performance than high adventures treks because the physical requirements for the environment are so exhausting that it pulls most of the crews emotions to their extremes. Nothing like getting up in hard rain to eat a cold eat breakfast and break camp for an 18 mile hike with a 3000 foot grade. I learned to pick my tent by the ease and ability to set it up and break it down in hard rain. Knowing the stress of back county crew treks, I spent a lot of time preparing adults for the emotional roller coaster they were getting submerged in with a crew of teenagers who were supposed to be the crew leaders. We asked one scouter to leave the program after he lost his temper and acted aggressive toward a scout during a Philmont trek. I can assure you that 95% of the members of that crew dearly wanted the leader to use the dictator style leadership in that moment. I don't think there is a better place than the patrol for teaching young adults of when and how to apply different styles of leadership. But, I also feel the BSA is getting away from encouraging that growth and moving toward to what qwazse calls the interpersonal leadership. And, I think the adults are compensating for the trend by not letting youth leaders get into situations where they practice a lot leadership decisions. So, I'm not sure it matters much anymore. Barry

Yes, I understand. However, your comments are just as judgmental and intolerable. Review the Oath and Law. God is very much part of the values of the program. Religious principles are core of how many people live their day and judge the behavior of others in their community. People just have different standards of judgment. The BSA has a broad spectrum of how adults apply judgement on their scouts. Your opinion of religious people's judgments is obviously not, well not like many of ours. But remember, adults IN ALL TROOPS are the sources of the values they use to judge their scouts in living the Oath and Law. I am quite sure there are behaviors you don't tolerate from your scouts that aren't a problem for me. Barry

Well, I've been there, so I understand the conflict of integrity. Saying that, I can't help but feel your comment is just as judgmental. Barry

We humans tend to turn off our when we scolded. Pushback to Patrol Method is generally the result of not understanding the inherent value of giving responsibility to to the Patrol Leader. Spend the time on the inherent value (positive), then you won’t have to spend much time on the pushback (negative). Barry

Very interesting. I will have to look at the draft, but it sounds pretty good. Our council found the main problem with junior leadership training was the disconnect of what the Scouts learn and pushing the Scoutmasters encouraging them to use they learned. The main problem is the adults simply don’t know or understand what the Scouts are learning, or why. We had some success by requiring our participants’ SMs at end a 3 hour talk on Patrol Method, then they spent another hour discussing the the ticket items their Scouts created, and how they would support their scout in implementing the Scouts ideas. I believe your GB Experience could do something like that. It’s an opportunity to discuss the process of Patrol method or boy run, the objective goals of the process, and the roles of each party in the process. Giving them a common vision turns them into a team with each member understanding their roles. The teams will need some kind of handbooks for guidance when they run into conflicts after they attend your course. You could make your own handbooks or Guides of course, but consider including the SPL and PL Handbooks because they are easy to access long after LaCaster has moved on. If you are near Oklahoma, I would love to drive over an observe. I won’t say a word, I promise.😬 Barry

I’ve missed something somewhere, were the board members unit leaders or district leaders? And what is a district rep? Sounds like someone with the clout to take names and kick.....knee caps. Barry

National, and generally Council, have Zero, nada, none, desire to fail a scout on the EBOR. Unless there is clear convincing argument to show the scout hasn't completed all the requirements, they won't mess with it. That two out of three members don't agree proves there is not a clear convincing argument. I also agree that the SM should ask the EBOR member be removed until they are trained to the proper interpretations of their responsibilities. It might help carry some weight for the committee chairs looking for reason. I have done this myself. Barry

I have never heard of a scout loosing an appeal. Barry

So you are doing some backpacking. Cool! Call some packs and ask to visit their Webelos dens to show off pictures of their adventures and bring their gear to show off. Boys (not sure about girls) like gadgets. Best way to get boys excited about adventure is to listen to boys talking about adventure. We have in the past taken dutch oven and made cobbler. Cobbler is fun because it so easy to make in front over everyone. But if time is an issue, you can start cooking before the Web's show up. Or ask a den or two to meet your scouts at the park where they will talk about their troop (adventures) and roast marshmellos. Set up a tent with the packs sitting against a tree. Make a schedule for the next six months that any boy this age would want to do, fishing, mountain biking, hiking, shooting sports, canoeing, and repelling. That sounds like something I would want to try. Find fun ways to get the Webelos to visit your troop. Barry