Eagledad

I was asked to take three months off to give new SM some room. It was hard, but I believe it was as much a benefit for me as it was him. Barry

OK, you win the splitting hairs competition. But I believe my original point stands, living the oath and law is 99 percent more subjective than the rest of the requirements because it judges personal behavior. Barry

How does one experience repercussions of behavior without accountability. You lost me, the community (National) reputation of the Boy Scout Eagle is leadership, character and integrity. The BSA program mission is developing moral and ethical character. And you believe that the reputation of behavior outside of Scouting activities should be off limits! By the way, have you seen this? Its part of the Number 2 Eagle requirement: As a Life Scout, demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God, how you have lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life, and how your understanding of the Scout Oath and Scout Law will guide your life in the future. I guess this all comes down to personal opinion of how each of us rank the honor of Eagle against the dishonor of bad behavior. OK, I get that. But I don't feel you have much respect for those who have a different opinion. My Eagle son is a high school teacher and has had several students arrested for various actions from drugs to attacks of other students on school property. I will ask his opinion of how their actions rank with the reputation of the Eagle. Barry

I'm curious, are you saying experiencing the repercussions from bad behavior are not compassionate? Do you really believe that the skill of making moral and ethical decisions doesn't come at some cost of humility? Wow, you say that as is if we adults have a less than honorable intention with the Scout Spirit requirement. Could it not be that we judges of behavior just require a little observation before offering an opinion? Shesh. Who signs off that requirement first? Barry

Well, I was speaking specifically to the Eagle requirements. But if you want to push this to the lowest level, then as a BOR member, how do you feel about about asking the young scout to assist at preparing the meal, again, to prove his experience. I'm sure you are right that even tying a knot could have some subjectivity, but I feel you would get 99% agreement on an objective expectation. Barry

I agree that adults should be feel comfortable in expressing how they feel about habits and behaviors of scouts and adults in the program. Some discussion may be required for their education, but everyone should feel comfortable in opening the discussion. Not only did our adults understand my intolerance for colorful language, our scouts knew as well. But I disagree that adults shouldn't consider themselves as students of character change. Who is to say when everyone can't learn something new. I have many many stories of adults having to correct their behavior for the sake of living the oath and law (myself included), but I will only mention the one of the lawyer visiting a meeting to express their client's concern of one of our leaders bad judgement of how they role model to our scouts. Leaving the parents choice of getting our attention aside, we found the adult changing his behavior the easier route to the solution. I believe, and taught this in my adult leadership classes, any adult who is not open to suggestions for change does not belong in the scouting program because as the scouts change and mature, so must the adults change and mature just to keep up. Add to that, if we are to assume scouts to grow into adult character, we must accept them, and ourselves as equals to develop that respect. Barry

WBers are an easy target when the subject brings some focus on them. But, I've watched just about everyone from leaders with religious opinions to brand new Tiger leaders taking a hit because they use incorrect pronounciations of common Boy Scout terms in their questions. We have had several posters on this forum (some kicked off) who showed no respect for anyone but themselves, that includes scouts. So, I agree, it's the Scout Law and Oath that are taking the biggest beating. Part of the problem with the Woodbadgers in our District was the District Committee's automatic acceptance of using ticket items to fill district and even council activities coordinators. WHO APPROVED THAT? We manage to nip that in the bud several years back. But, that doesn't mean some Woodbadgers don't let the beads go to their head. Still, the same can be said of adults who are given the responsibility of Leadership in their unit, district, and council. I have watch and cleaned up more messes by incompetent district/council volunteers than any Woodbadger I can think of. However, the fact is we belong to a volunteer organization which accepts just about anyone's knowledge, skills, or egos in running this complicated machine. I admit to being very humbled when I stepped over to the district and council operations. You can't imagine how much incompetence keeps the cogs of this program moving forward. I have more respect for the professionals patience when I was outside looking in. I will admit to finding myself looking in a mirror more than once when it comes to commenting about other scouters. Setting the example of the Oath and Law in actions is a lot hard than most scouters realize. Barry

The Scout Spirit is the one subjective part of the requirements. The rest of the checklist is pretty much just objective actions. Granted, rarely does National refuse the Eagle for lacking Scout Spirit because it is so subjective, but then I've never heard National having to consider an objective arrest as part of Scout Spirit. I agree with qwazse, this comes under the heading of tough love. We must consider what is best for the young man's best future. While the Eagle represents the highest moral values, the title is just status. Character and integrity is measure by actions, not status. Barry

Is there a “Shaking my head” emoji? Barry

In the old days, the response was first class scouts are trained for survival in the woods. There is very little the adults can add that the trained first class scout doesn’t already know. Many adults today don’t understand the trained skills of a true first class scout. Ive told this story before: our senior scouts set up a simulated car wreck for the rest of the troop hiking to the campsite. As the scouts realized they were walking into a very serious accident, they hesitated at first, then walked quickly to the scene. Once they realize the scene was set up, you could feel the relief. The senior scouts spent another 45 minutes reviewing the fake injuries and then we hiked another mile to camp. But the troop was the first to arrive on a roll over accident on our way to summer camp Two months later. We had a couple of doctors who attended the victims while the rest of us kept the scouts back to prevent them from getting hit by another car. I will never forget a scout who looked at me and said, “you train us for this and then won’t let us help.” The scouts were trained and ready. Make your parents proud of their sons by training them for the unexpected. barry

I have often bragged that my dad was a 16 year old SM. It was the middle of WWII and there weren’t any male adults around to lead. My dad worked a deal with my grandpa that if he would sign all the paperwork, my dad would do the rest. And he wasn’t the only one, I met another adult who was a 16 year old SM of a troop that couldn’t find a volunteer in their small town. He was one of the best trainers I’ve ever worked with. Maybe we adults are making this Scouting stuff too hard. Barry

Hmm, so who dictates which laws are ok to break. Parents, SM, CC? Do the authority’s really care? Barry

The SM Confrence is symbolic. It doesn’t prevent the scout from the Eagle. But symbology is everything on this situation. The SM is the gatekeeper for integrity of the honor. In my experience, the reputation of the scout likely preceded this bad choice. The troop probably already knows their choice. Barry

Vision at your age might sound trivial, but we humans find noble idealism hard to argue against. Adults on one hand want the fun of scouting, and on the other hand they like purpose with their fun. Even the best scoutmasters has to learn how to justify the fun for the noble cause. Barry

Two ways to drive positive team building is working under the strict conditions of time and competition. In other words, strict agendas and patrol competitions. I learned recently these are the same conditions used in training Special Forces teams. Nothing motivates change like a sense of failure. So build a rigid agenda that forces patrol to work as a team to succeed. Not so rigid the fun is taken out of the activity, but enough to force actions to accomplish success. First, every activity should have an agenda set by time. Especially troop meetings, PLC meetings and camp outs. Our SPL calls the SM the night before the meetings to give his agenda. And he gives the SM a camp out agenda at the Troop meeting before the camp out. Giving to SM the agenda ahead of time is just good policy to give adults a heads up. But, more importantly, it also holds the SPL accountable. 😉 Our patrols were taking two hours to break camp because they hated the task and nothing was driving them to be more efficient. Also, some of that Patrols were stopping for a junk food break on the way home. Parents were complaining of waiting longer than been scheduled, so I gave them the SPLs phone number. He found a sudden motivation to ban junk food stops until patrols broke camp fast enough to get home at the posted time. The patrols manage to reduce breaking camp to 40 minutes. Time is my favorite motivator. As for competition, there are many ways for patrols to complete, but a great one that requires team work and time are patrol inspections. If a patrol has one hour from getting up to assembly, they have to work as a team to cook, kp, clean camp, and prepare tents for inspection. I also used time and patrol peer pressure on our NYLT (JLTC for us) courses. Works very well to push a bunch of scouts who don’t know each other to come together as a team. These are just a couple of examples, but time and peer pressure motivates patrol teamwork a lot better than whining adult leaders. I learned over time to motivate patrol success without being the bad guy. Barry

The Troop QM is important in our troop because he practices the skills of teaching, organization and responsibility of the troop storage unit and trailer. He works with the patrol guide teaching them how to take care of their equipment, and organizes them for maintaining the gear, which includes loading and unloading. Our adults have learned to not get anywhere near the trailer when the QM is around because they only get in the way. I challenge any troop to beat the timeliness and organization of loading and unloading our trailer and storage unit. He manages the organization of the storage unit and keeping it clean and organized. But, just as important, the Troop QM is the only person who can allow access to the storage unit and trailer. Unless the world is coming to and end, his keys are the only keys used. The Troop QM is also responsible for hitching up the trailer to the cars. He verifies the driver is qualified, and then instructs the driver on the process for hitching the trailer up to the car. If the scout cannot go on the campout, he makes sure a qualified trained scout will be attend. This is typical when a crew uses the trailer. Because of the level of responsibility, I personally consider the Troop QM a required prerequisite for SPL, unless the SPL candidate can convince me otherwise, which has happened. Barry

When our troop grew to 100 scouts, the PLC was overwhelmed with the responsibility using the old standard troop assignments, so they added two more ASPLs. And that fixed their problem for about 18 months. Then I was approached by the SPL who told me I would be mad because he removed the two ASPL positions. Hey, I'm always impressed with scouts making executive decisions. I wasn't mad, I was proud. The SPL was pretty sharp and knew how to run a more efficient program. But, we really did need those added responsibilities at the time the PLC created them. What I'm saying is the needs and requirements of the patrols change over time, so we shouldn't be surprised when job structure changes to fit the immediate needs. My scouts will tell you that I want is for each scout to grow from their experience. If they are bored, something needs to change. And if the leadership is overwhelmed, something also needs to change. Fixed job structures aren't a bad thing for starters, but scouts should learn to adapt and not be afraid of change. Truth is, scouts by nature will adapt and change, because by nature, they like to take the path of least resistance. It's the adults that tend to be rigid and obstructing change. They don't see the patrols day to day struggles, and it is easier keeping track of a familiar structure. They also like the path of least resistance. Barry

Exactly, which is why I posted Parkmans quote. In fact, how a scout responds to imperfection is the foundation of the program. The more bad decisions a scout makes during his scouting career, the more likely he will develop habits to resist bad choices in his future. But, nobody is perfect all the time. We have to be able to justify our decisions to the community as well as ourselves. We have to be gatekeepers to the prestige, honor and idealism of the Eagle, but that doesn't mean fight to the death with our personal convictions, biases and experiences. There is a lot that has to be considered when conflicts upset obvious choices. Barry

I wish real life were that simple. What if a mother interrupted the board to explain how this scout bullied their child recently? What if a someone walked through the door to announce the scout had once threatened them with a knife. What if the board discovered the scout was a member of the KKK? You still want to hang your reputation on the SM sign off, or prevent an embarrassing injustice? It's the community we have to justify our decisions, not just the scout's family, troop, or even district. I've personally been in the middle of this very situation as a SM, but if you read my initial response on it, I'm saying it really depends on a lot of factors. And some of the responses on this forum to me are kind of scary. I think Parkman provides some quidance: From 8.0.1.2 What Should Be Discussed A Scout may be asked where he learned his skills and who taught him, and what he gained from fulfilling selected requirements. The answers will reveal what he did for his rank. It can be determined, then, if this was what he was supposed to do. Discussion of how he has lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in his home, unit, school, and community should be included. We must remember, however, that though we have high expectations for our members, as for ourselves, we do not insist on perfection. A positive attitude is most important, and that a young man accepts Scouting’s ideals and sets and meets good standards in his life. Barry

Well, I think the discussion has gotten silly. You are justifying bad behavior because you didn't get caught. That's integrity! Handing in your badge, is that an adult temper tantrum? If you really believe your bad behavior is justification for qualification Eagle, I think you should hand your metal back? So let's hash this out, is there any action you feel that a scout might have done to disqualify him from the honor of Eagle like selling drugs, bullying, or threatening physical harm with a weapon? Anything? The Eagle represents integrity, and as far as I can find, the BSA doesn't list actions of integrity beyond the broad definitions of the Law and Oath. Are you suggesting that should mean anything goes? If not, just say so so we don't have to ridicule those who might disagree with your personal list of immoral exceptions. I have had to deal with Eagle candidates who were caught doing what many in the community consider immoral and the discussion is a lot more complicated than, "It's OK by me, that should make it ok for you". To the community, the Eagle is an ideal of above average character and integrity. It represents a higher (almost unreachable) idealism that most parents want for their kids. It's not an idealsim of the average person, but of someone who stands above the crowd and models the idealist actions of good citizens and leaders of the community. Once we start denigrating that community expectation with shallow exceptions, then eventually the prestige of the idealism fades into insignificance. The Eagle will have no more honor to the community than the 2nd Class rank. It will just mean time spent with one of those after school outdoor youth clubs. Maybe I'm being unfair, but I've had to deal with some of these challenges as a Scoutmaster and I find denigrating others to justify my personal opinion immature, if not hostile. These are serious conflicts for many families. To trivialize behaviors that tear families and communities apart is just as unworthy of the Eagle, if not more. I had to struggle with most of these challenges, not only with the Troop leadership, but the troop parents and district leaders. It's very sobering measuring right, wrong, immorality, and questionable behavior with the community watching. Who am I to decide right and wrong? Barry

It's really not a camporee as we think of camporees, it's closer to wilderness reenactment. It's watching reenactors, selling and trading trinkets. Our troop goes often and the scouts just have fun. It's usually below freezing and often snowing. I have not been in a while, so others can fill in, but our scouts have always enjoyed it. Barry

So, you have no judgement of behavior that would deny an Eagle, pushing drugs, bullying, threatening physical harm with a weapon, or just lying about passing requirements to get the Eagle. Ah, it keeps coming back to religion as if religion is a disqualification for judging behavior. Do you really believe there isn't a single non-religious who believes premarital sex is very wrong? You've set yourself up for hypocrisy because everyone's conscious comes from somewhere, one day you will have to justify your yours. They will ask, "what makes you so high and mighty judging the behavior of someone else's son?" Discounting ones judgment on the single bases of religion borders on bigotry. If you can't express an opinion without denigrating others for their opinion, then you're no better than your derogatory words. The religious person judges behavior equally among all people. Your opinion comes off personal and prejudice. Next time, just simply say you disagree with how they handled the situation. Barry

The reason treks expose leadership so profoundly is because the crew is experiencing a relationship in one week that takes almost six months to develop in normal patrol activities. Adults really struggle with the shift of behavior. Scouts will figure things out, but it's more emotional than adults like. Barry

Since I'm just used to how our district performs EBORs, explain to me the difference between council members and volunteers? All our EBOR members are volunteers, but they are trained and that is their responsibility. Is that the same? Barry

Yes, but as you pointed out, that is not the same as the proficiency of first class skills. Merit badges were introduced for a very different purpose than first class skills. First class skills are required for safe camping in the wilderness. You want the scouts to be proficient because their lives may depend on it. By the way, when did the BSA quit being a proficiency program? I have not heard that. Barry