Eagledad

14 year old is an awkward age. We took two crews one year, one was made of 14 year olds, the other was made of 15 to 18 year olds. The 18 years olds were new ASMs (and they had a blast). Anyway, the 14 year olds stuck to themselves. They didn't like wearing the uniform during travel (required), while the older scouts didn't think twice about it. They just never seemed comfortable. As I said, awkward. But they were fine on the trail. That is where they bonded. I will suggest that you go again with this group in a couple of years. Treks with 16 and 17 year olds is so much fun. They are more relaxed and just know how to have a good time. Barry

Looking back, I can't recall very many scouts reflecting the leadership of their parents. Visa versa, some of our scouts also weren't a reflection of their really good leader parents. But, in most cases, the sons were remarkable reflections of their parents' character. Without getting into natural leadership (a whole different breed of leader), leadership skills have to be acquired one way or another. But what exactly is leadership? We push servant leadership in the scouting program, but what is servant leadership? I look back at two groups of recognized leaders in our troop that we guided to be servant leaders. I learned of the first group by a young proud freshmen scout one night at a troop meeting. We have three large high schools that feed our troop. One of those schools hands ballets to all 2000 of the students and ask them to pick the top 8 leaders of the school. Seven of the chosen leaders were scouts in our troop. The eight was a girl. I'm she would have been in our troop today.😎 So, how do high schoolers define leaders. Well, each of these scouts were active campers and experts with outdoors skills. Each had a reputation of trust and kindness toward all the scouts. Each were fairly quiet scouts, but more in the of a calm confidence, they weren't shy. They weren't braggarts, I never heard a single one of them mention their honor. Only the proud freshmen alerted me. They weren't silly, but more steady in their character. In my youth, these guys were top candidates for OA Arrowmen. Servants. At the same time, neither were they our top leaders. They all were good trusted leaders while on the PLC, but they weren't making a career of taking Positions of responsibility. They were scouts for adventure and the camaraderie of the patrol. I was quite proud, but not surprised. They were solid scouts. I learned of our other group of leaders one night when the district OA representative came to visit. We chatted for a while, but eventually I asked why his visit. He confessed that he wanted to see the program of the districts best youth leaders. His words. He said that scouts from our troop were well trained in running a large program. They we confident and skilled at setting goals and developing agendas to meet those goals. Our scouts were so accomplished with these skills, the scouts from the other troops elected them because they were intimidated. And it wasn't the same scouts, different scouts were elected each of the previous three years. I was to busy for OA, and frankly it wasn't the program of my youth, so I wasn't involved at all. so, I had no idea our scouts were so respected. Three of the 7 scouts scouts elected as leaders by their high school were also arrowmen, but none of them were the scouts the district rep was talking about. The scouts that where being elected leaders OA were had a differnt style than the scouts elected by their school. These had also been SPLs, ASPLS and Troop Quartermasters of our troop. These three positions are in our troop are very challenging and usually only taken on by the scouts who want and enjoy Positions of Responsibility. These guys also typically had the highest grades in school. As I said, we push servant leadership. Are they typical of servant leadership? I could go on and on, and on and on, bragging about our youth leaders, but these are two groups of leaders recognized outside of our troop. We weren't doing the bragging. Complete strangers were going out of their way to call them "Leader". They were recognized for their qualities. And yet, they were two completely different types of qualities. Are these qualities leadership qualities? More important to me, are their qualities the qualities of servants? My definition of servant leader is simply putting everyone else first, before ourselves. You know, the Scout Oath. That is all that we asked of all our scouts, leader or not. A servant leaders is just a by-product of a servant lifestyle. Quite frankly, I believe being a good servant is harder for followers than leaders. Leaders have one task of taking the Patrol to their goals. Followers have to question and trust the leader the whole way. Much much harder. So I find myself in leadership discussions always spread around the subject because I have witness so many good leaders of different styles. And this isn't just my opinion, this is the opinion of strangers out in the community. Their leadership styles are as diverse as the stars. I was the council Youth Leadership director, the head guy for Junior Leadership Training for all the council. I was the expert. And yet, all I can say that the one commonality for developing good leaders is let them make decisions based from character actions of being a servant. Or, follow the scout law. Teach you scouts to serve, and no matter their skills, I learned that they will be respected as "Leaders". This really is an amazing program. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I found that most boys aren't willing to do the kind of backpacking that will get them in shape. The altitude alone will slow them down no matter their shape. But, I've never had a scout dropout because he was out of shape. They can handle most trails. It's their feet that cause most of the physical problems on the trail. I recommend at least one, and two if you can, 5 mile hikes with full gear. That will give everyone enough miles to respect the weight of the pack and learn about foot (feet?) comfort. One of our younger scouts after one such hike decided the large jar of hair jell wasn't a good idea. And if the scouts are going to develop a blister, the 5 mile hike is the place to do it. If you can, find a long downhill slope. The downhill slope will determine if the boots fit properly because the feet will be force into the toe. A comfortable boot on flat ground can become too small on a downhill slope and stress and bruise the toes. Adults will find out quickly is their knees are healthy or require hiking poles. Also, the 5 mile hike is the better place to adjust the packs to each person. The weight needs to be carried on the hip belt with the shoulder straps slightly loose. But, often the vertical adjustments aren't set correctly after purchase (or the scout went through a growing spurt), so the straps need to be readjusted. For the vertical backpack setup, the shoulder strap attachment point should be about level with the top of the shoulder with all the weight sitting on the hip belt. As the scouts settle in and get used to their pack, they may need some readjustment, but it shouldn't be much. Good luck and have a great time. Barry

I agree. Actually I'm a little surprised National even mentioned Mixed age and Same age. There were no such definitions until they started their New Scout, Regular Scout and Venture Scout experiment. I believe they are reverting back because the new scout (same age patrol) experiment failed. And here we are asking what is the guiding reason for having patrols? Sadly, we appear to be starting over. Only it's worse, now the majority of adults having to lead troops of patrols don't even have a scouting experience to base the program goals for their scouts. Maybe it's time to start answering questions with the Kudu style of quoting from Badon Powell. Barry

I added a little section to my SM Specific class back in 2000 called "Signing off Bungee Cord and Velcro skills". My point to the class was that while the 1st class skills seem less applicable today (even back in 2000), they are still valuable for developing the skills of setting goals and developing a plan to accomplish those skills to set new higher goals (rank). Honestly Matt, I'm a little surprised that National in the last 19 years hasn't taken some of your suggestions for first class skills. Barry

During the discussions of bringing gays scouts into the BSA, many suggested that the membership would grow dramatically. Several posters pointed out that no scouting organization ever improved their numbers with the member policy change, and BSA followed the trend. However, the BSA has always received a lot of support from alumni donations, of which I know fell dramatically. But, I'm curious if the many corporate sponsors who stopped donating because of the gay issue ever started giving again. Or, was the no gay adults policy, then the no girl policy, then now family scouts, and now the no atheist policy conveniently holding them back. Anyone know if National has talked to the Canadian Scouts to learn how they recovered after loosing almost 2/3 of their membership and donations. Barry

I teach SMs to guide their scouts to at least use an agenda because it keeps them on track from a starting to an end. Without an agenda, meetings tend to run really long because the leader will jump to what they remember in the moment. I let my SPLs run a couple of meetings without agendas just to prove me wrong, but they have always admitted agendas are the greatest thing since internal backpacks. The participants of our NYLC course planned at least 12 meeting agendas, and lead 3 during our course. I believe the SPL Handbook, or PL Handbook has a simple agenda. Basically: Officer and PL reports Old business New Business Closing if you need one. You could add Roberts Rules and let the Scouts work out what they like to use. Our SPL plans and runs an averages of 50 meetings every six months. They get quite good at them. Barry

Pros are faster bonding and more growth from individual decisions. Con is the challenge for continued growth and maturing as scouts get older and more experienced. Barry

Established Troop cultures are resistant to change because the older scouts just don't like it. And the more experienced adults aren't much easier. Change comes best from the younger scouts. You will have to be creative to keep enough of the older culture so the older scouts feel comfortable, but getting them to bend enough to start melding the younger scouts toward the new culture. You have to get very good explaining why your changes are good for the scouts to get the adults to try you ideas. Remember, their resistance is more of laziness of changing to new ways than not liking your ideas. But, they will find all kinds of reasons why your ideas aren't good. So, learn how to explain your goals and why your changes get you to those goals. It's the dark they resist. If you can paint a clear bright future, they will follow. Another way of getting the culture to change faster is to change the usual agenda. Go in and strive for new adventure: rappelling, canoeing, backpacking, and so forth. Do a couple of meetings outside or at a near by local park to change the environment. Get the older scouts and adults focused (distracted) on the new fun activities so they aren't resistant to the new ideas of patrol method. Even just having the Troop meet for bicycle ride for icecream can make a difference. Be creative. Think like a 13 year old boy. The culture changes will start out slow because humans are slow to see the purpose of where they are going. But, as everyone gets use to it, your program will pick up speed. So, don't get too frustrated with slow pace, just be patient. The momentum will pick up as everyone gets used your program. And, if you do a fun adventurous agenda at first, you will likely see your troop grow. Change is slow, but reputation move like the wind. That is another struggle we can talk about later. You are going on the roller coaster ride of your life. Savor it. Barry

I can see your compassion, or empathizing, or whatever, is driving you to help this one girl feel better about her situation. But like most of these discussions that are getting derailed from reason, there are far more "boys" in the program than girls. Are you suggesting test out program so all new scouts (both boys and girls) can jump strait to Eagle? Barry

If they run their program like yours, they will likely grow because independence is very appealing for youth this age. They just need to know there is something like this out there. Barry

There was no discussion, it was performance. I can't explain your experience, only mine. I will say that my experience was with girls 10 and under. That is when my daughter decided competitive dance was the direction she wanted to go. But you might be right, I attended a lot of dance competitions and there was nothing fun about them (I still think my daughter owes me for sacrificing that part of my life). Competitive male dancers stuck out because there was one boy for every 200 girls. That one boy sure was competitive. I never saw any body check shenanigans at these competitions, probably because there were a lot of bored dads looking for any opportunity to blow the whistle or throw a flag. Barry

You just described the number one reason why units loose their older scouts. If the program were left totally to the scouts, First Class would be way down the list and fishing would come way up. But let's be fair to ourselves, we talk idealistically, however, realistically the adults have to instill some expectations depending on the maturity of scouts. If a scout doesn't know what they don't know, the adults have to at least give a starting point. The problem is that adults don't know how far is too far. Learning the line that can be crossed requires reflecting on experience and courage to step back. Cubs is still an adult driven program, so it's easy for adults to push their ideals on the scouts to far without taking away much from the program. However, Troop level scouts is the real character building level of the program, so adult intrusion has measurable effects on a scout's growth. The problem for us scouters is that we don't see our negative influences instantly, sometimes it takes several months, even years. Reflection and evaluation takes a lot practice. The key is keeping the eye on the prize of developing youth who make ethical and moral decisions based from the scout law. Barry

You might be surprised to learn that I think the desire by the girls is even less than "not that great". Based from my experience of life, I believe most of the Eagle push here is the adults. I don't have the experience of working with girls in advancement, but I have worked with them in competitive sports and their motivation to participate was more about fun than winning. The difference isn't obvious when the girls played girls, but quite obvious when they played the boys. Barry

Maybe, but ambition should be guided into scout actions, not shoehorned by adult actions. Even your own words suggest the question is directly intended for the girls. Is that modeling "Servant Leadership"? It could be me, but after so many years of observing human nature, I'm cautious of the motivation to adorn the unit for adult vanity. I said in another thread that we should consider giving all the girls an Eagle now so the program can move on. Barry

A one legged Scouter at our Council Scout Show had a wooden leg loaded with unit brands, countless signatures, and many clever quotes burned in the wood. Pretty cool really, but I often wondered if that leg led to scouts getting patrol and troop tattoos. Barry Side note: My oldest son once mentioned an interest in a tattoo. I told him it was his decision, but it better say "Mother" if he hoped to ever eat dinner at our house again. Still no tattoo 15 years later.

This isn't new to scouting, Navybone. ""I've been on this forum for 20 something years and the subject of advancement has been discussed a 1000 times. In every discussion, the traditionalist consistently expressed that each scout's advancement journey is the scouts choices and responsibility. Barry""

I enjoy observing human behavior. I'm curious how program dynamics would change if all scouts were given the Eagle now. Barry

I've been on this forum for 20 something years and the subject of advancement has been discussed a 1000 times. In every discussion, the traditionalist consistently expressed that each scout's advancement journey is the scouts choices and responsibility. Barry

Welcome, I'm excited to me you. You have no idea how much influence a person your age has with scouts. From an old guy to the new guy; scouts are inspired by actions, not words. You won't go wrong if you guard your words and be humble with your actions. Barry

OK, that makes sense, but the water is still in the lungs. Wouldn't emptying the lungs first raise the probability of success? I'm sure there is good reasoning, I'm just curious. Barry Edit: Just read elitts's post and that seems to answer my question. Thanks all.

I think what you are saying is that so long as the patrols aren't mix gender, there is hope to make the traditional program work for both genders. And I can see that. However, my other concern is that the pool of volunteers is getting diluted with adults who never experienced the advantages of the traditional scouting program (primarily patrol method). I believe the challenge will just be keeping a desire to present the traditional program. I like your vision of the better future. Thanks. Barry

I have a question: when I was a scout, we were taught to turn the drowned person on their chest and compress the back a couple times to force some of the water out of the lungs. Now we are told to got strait to two breaths then CPR. What about the water in the lungs? Barry

Yep, my complaint about mixing genders is that it takes away the leverage to force boys to do what they don't naturally like to do. I guess it's the same with girls, but I don't have as much experience there. I think your observation is interesting. I appreciate your being candid because many here are afraid that any mention of differences acknowledges those of us who appose the change. Accurate observations are always good for developing and improving programs. Barry

Good post qwazse. I like how you found your numbers. I'm not sure of your reasoning for scouts not feeling welcome if they weren't Eagle motivated because 97% of our new scouts couldn't really care less about any rank. And, with today's adults, scouts actually have to go out of their way to resist working toward Eagle. I'm also not sure about your bold 1st Class opinion. Oh I agree and understand that scouts should be given the freedom to chose their own path, but I need confident campers. The First Class rank used to indentify a level of skills confidence required for surviving in the woods. Even if a scout is insistent they don't earn rank, I would still insist they prove themselves after a certain time frame. It's just a lot easier to look at a rank patch. I think that is where National went wrong, they have turned skills levels into indicators of stature, not skills confidence. Next to advancement, leadership is the most abused requirement because scouts today are expected to lead for the tenure requirement, not growth of skill. As a result, there are a lot of PLs running that couldn't lead their own shadow, much less a patrol. Barry