Eagledad

I attempted to start something like this once. It's a lot of work, and I was burned out at the time, so it didn't happen. But, in the little effort I gave, I must warn that patrols of SMs teeter on the edge of becoming the dreaded ego-rich fraternity that so many folks dislike about Wood Badge. I apologize that I must harp, again, but such a program requires great humble leadership. A leader strong enough to coach large egos, and humble enough to mentor growth. The program requires a Scoutmaster's Scoutmaster. I know of a few and they don't volunteer for such honors because they believe these kinds of positions deserve someone better. The position requires seeking out and recruiting the right person. Otherwise you have nothing more than another adult feel-good meeting that sucks away another hour. Barry

I don't think there is any back and forth here, your post is very logical. I think we must consider the level where you want success is dependent on the level where the vision given. When I look at the most successful districts, a visionary leader first sets the direction for success for all the units. Of course a unit can be successful in a rudderless district with a visionary leader of its own, but the success of those units tend to come and go as they change leaders. My observation is that to have a quality program, there must be a quality vision. A united quality vision. Folks often disregard vision as all that important for success, but vision is the definition for measuring performance. Where do you want the vision set? Sadly, I think District and Council leadership is more important today than 30 years ago because the average volunteer 30 years ago had generally the same scouting experiences. Experience is a form of vision. Visionless unit leaders of today are more reliant on other leadership to set their course. I honestly don't know how that will work because that is not the program I was in. Barry

Yes, which is why scouting as we know it can't survive. I have been saying for 25 years now that the number one cause of volunteer drop outs is national adding complexity to the program. I know that is not what you mean, but if the average adult can't look at the program and understand the expectation of them, then they will back away. The difference between successful new units and struggling new unit is usually the past experience of the adults. Before 1990, 75 percent of troop leaders were were scouts as a youth. There are several reasons for why, but the majority of new volunteers today do not bring any scouting or outdoor experience with them. That completely changes the dynamics of the program. If the BSA survives, eventually experience volunteers will catch up to needed membership, but the experience of those volunteers will be different from the volunteers 25 years ago. The program is changing as a result of the experience, or lack of, from today's volunteers. I know, I harped on this over and over as the discussions of bringing girls into the program. But it's not just the membership change of adding girls, patrol method in it's intended form only works when scouts are given the freedom to screw up. The adults coming into the program now and in the future are afraid of giving youth that freedom. Screwing up is sign of failure to the new adults, so they aren't going to just sit back and let that happen. Ask anyone who teaches woods tools today, adults today are afraid of using those tools. If they can't imagine themselves using them, they certainly aren't going to encourage their children to risk using them. That is just one example. Well, I don't see a volunteer led program for quite some time because the program is in a huge dynamic shift. Maybe eventually, but after working with volunteers at a district and council level, the kind of program that is volunteer led by the average parent has to be scaled way way down. That is a trial and error period of getting to that kind of program will take some time and National will be dragging their heals the whole way. Barry

We had several learning disabled or artistic scouts earn Eagles. I have lots of great stories, but I would say their success in our troop was the support of the patrol mates. Barry

I think this is a reaction to the present political drama with president because I’ve seen a couple of anti rural stories this week using the same language. The bigoted tone is the result of rural communities unchanging support for the president. Barry

Agreed, but I heard the lose of donations from alumni was worse after the gay policy change. I’m sure it’s more complex than that, but I personally know of long time donors stopping after that.

It was not a 50/50 of opinions for or against. When the gay issue started coming up, Dozens of posters attributed the membership loses to the gay issue. I was a district membership chair at the time and all tracking of membership losses were attributed 100% the program. Zero was attributed to social and political correctness. I do agree that the BSA carries a stigma, but it’s not about agreeing or disagreeing with policy, folks just do not want to hassle with taking some kind of side. Obviously the agenda is to take down any Christian related organization. The BSA is not specifically Christian, but it is labeled as one by the PC activists, so it’s a target. Is there hope for traditional values in any organization today? Barry

Free speech is defined by who holds the biggest stick. Barry

Until recently with the changes of the program, the BSA was rich with Alumni support. That doesn't include other resources. Once a boy scout, always a boy scout at heart was the general reasoning. But even my 33 and 36 year old sons don't see today's boys scouts as the same program they came from. The structure is basically the same, but traditionalism seems to be fading. The discussions of OA's changes are a reflection of how many alumni feel about the whole program. If culture is to blame, then maybe scouting is an outdated idea. At least in the traditional outdoor adventure sense. But to your point, we will see how the resources hold up. Certainly camps are taking a huge hit. Barry

I'm with TMSM, just do a group trip and don't call it scouting. Or call it unofficial scouting so that families understand liability is on them. I guess I was a bit of a Pirate as well. We took our Webelos to a state park for five nights each summer. I did inform Council and the only suggestion they had for us was do a swimming test so we would know each scouts skills, even though the park we attended had a Lifeguard. We acted like scouts with uniformed flag ceremonies each morning and evening, but the parents knew it was unofficial. We had a blast. If the parents are going, then just do it. It's really more for the adults experiencing a group of youth on camping trips. Everyone will have fun because a 1 mile hike will not take much time at all. May I suggest good-ol campfire cooking instead of the typical backpacking meals like oatmeal in the pouch. Bacon, eggs, potatoes and coffee. Something about cooking on a campfire that really brings out the romance of adventure in nature. Save the minimal stuff for the 5 mile backpacking trip next year. You can carry a skillet for a mile. Barry

I don't know the particulars because this was 20 years ago, but a camp director told me that bicycles alone doubled total camp liability insurance. Maybe all that's changed. Barry

Ah the memories. The troop of my youth wanted the scouts to experience killing, cleaning and cooking animals. First we killed a one hog as a troop and cooked it on a spit for 24 hours. Each patrol also killed and eat chickens and turkeys. The turkey is the most member-able because chopping the head off of a turkey isn't as easy as the adults assumed. They are heavy when holding them by one arm, and they can fight. After the first couple of failed attempts by the patrols, the adults took over and it went easier. Next we drop the turkeys in boiling water to make feather removal easier. Then we wrap the turkey in foil, wet cardboard, then more foil, drop then in a bit and moved fire over them. The problem with cooking in a boy scout fire pits is that scouts tend to poke their fires with sticks. I don't remember why we were so lucky, but our turkey was the only one that survived out of the eight. So, we fed the whole troop. Because of that experience, I kind of suggested of finding a different method of cooking turkey above ground, and that is how we learn of the chicken fence towers wrapped in foil. Turkeys above the ground are easier to gauge when the turkey is done, and the fire can be controlled by adding or removing charcoal. It is so easy that the patrols cook turkeys a lot. Barry

We use the tripods with the chicken fence towers as well. This patrol isn't using a bag, but the adults use the bags on their turkeys.

This is new for me. I would have to think about my response, but it would be along the the lines that developing character requires accountability of choices without the parents in the room. However, and I have asked this of parents, if they insist being present with theirs sons accountability, then they have to attend 100% of their sons activities. We had a few families leave. Barry

I have often heard good things about the Northern Star Council. Several years ago a couple of districts in that council set the gold standard for Unit Commissioners Corps. I've been told over the years to look at Northern Star Council for good examples of several projects I was on. I will be interested in hearing what they do with this re-engineering. Barry

I don't know, mine is the best one and nobody voted for it. Maybe everyone misunderstood the instructions.

I used to tell new Scoutmasters that dealing with the expectations of parents is one of the more challenging parts of the job. They scoutmaster is firm in protecting the program, but also a good sales person of how it works. You will generally find the best scoutmasters have read and studied some of the writings of Baden Powell, William Boyce Bill Hillcourt and other founding scouters to develop simple word explanations for the virtues of scouting. Do a search on Baden Powell quotes to understand what I mean. At it's simplest, scouting build confidence by doing. The new scouts are simply new at doing and just starting to build that confidence. Barry ""We must change boys from a 'what can I get' to a 'what can I give' attitude." Baden Powell

A Webelos den leader approached me to ask that we plan and run a scouts skills day for her Webelos. I asked the PLC and one scout stood up and said he would be glad to do it. Two weeks later he approached me with a smile and said, "don't worry, I can't be there, something came up. But, I am making sure it will go well." The Den leader called me two weeks later and said they had a fantastic day with our scouts. If your two best guys are any good, they can take care of it. And hopefully you have a great story to inspire young scouters in the future. Barry Whoops, I didn't see you last post. But, I'm confident a great story is coming.

You are dealing with motivation and maturity. Also, young scouts aren't always confident with talking to adults. When the scouts find a need for for advancing, they will find the will. Still, there are some things you can do to build confidence. When we test and finish the new scout on the Scout requirements, we walk him to a list on the table where the scout request a BOR. He just puts down his name and rank for the BOR, then the BOR leader will find him to set a time and day. After he completes the BOR, the BOR leader will then show the scout how to personally ask for a SM Conference, where I, with a big smile, gladly set a time and date. That usually helps a lot. Starting by putting a name on the BOR list seems to be an easy start. And watch out, when they do decide to ask, it seems to came all at once. Barry

I like how you are giving them the time they need. But do they need three saturdays? You can't know what each MB requirement requires from different scouts. And every counselor has their own style of working with the scouts. So, instead of setting limitations and expectations on the counselors, give a MB Couselor class to the counselors for teaching the BSA counselor expectations using the BSA materials. Let them determine what they need, then you can help provide the resources to them. Our troop developed a course for our MB counselors that we gave every year to insure the counselors understand their responsibilities. Other units heard about it and asked to attend. Eventually someone on district found out about it and low and behold our troop created and taught a district level once a year course. It's really not hard course to do, just use the materials that pertain to the MB counselors and explain in some detail to add clarity. About 30 minutes. Barry

Parkman, I have given my reasoning in several posts for why I believe these events are bad for troops along with suggestions for how they should be planned and managed. I can't add anymore. I'm not going to keep defending my opinion by repeating myself. My posts aren't based on emotion or from a idealistic nostalgic reaction, it is simply from what I have experienced. District sets expectations on unit performance with their programs. If they set bad expectations, they instill bad unit performance. Barry

Again, my observation is that they are generally popular for the adults, not the scouts. Now I admit that all the events I've observed are not well run and certainly not run for the convenience of the scouts. If they were an opportunity for one or two badges, well then maybe. Well, this would be a good start, but this discussion was started with National discouraging such events, not trying to improve quality. They must have some kind of data to make that suggestion. And, while I respect your suggestion here, as a district trainer, I would rather put that effort in teaching units how to do their own advancement program under the BSA guidelines. If I were involved at the district level again, I would change the MB college to District Training weekend so that adults and scouts attend their respected classes at the same time . I would include first-aid and specialized safety skills. I would not force anyone to stay any longer than the one or two classes they need. I would also ask OA and Venturing Crews to set up stands to show off or demonstrate their specialty. Scuba, Law Enforcement, Aviation and other cool themes. I would, and our district does this, have MB counselor training before this event to get them trained and prepared for large groups of scouts. In fact, that training is how we develop an annual district counselor list. As I said, district needs to set the example it wants for its units. It matters a lot. Barry

Do you think our rush to critique is just old-timer emotional whimsy? Hmm, maybe so. But our scouts are free to do what ever they want, and I would guess that our Eagles probably average 1 MB from a MB college at best. So, while the opportunities for scouts may be popular, the popularity is from the adult perspective. Scouts do not want to spend a full Saturday sitting in class like they have done all week at their school. If district would just run it like a university under the BSA advancement guidelines, I wouldn't mind. But, they run it like an middle school treating scouts like children instead of adults attending a class at a university. Plus they don't follow the BSA guidelines. District sets the vision of a quality boy run troop program for all their troops and their vision based from MB college is terrible. Great for the adults, terrible for the scouts. Barry

Ah! I understand now. When I order balaclava for dessert at Greek restaurants, they never have any because it's the wrong time of year. Barry

It used to be that unless the scouts are selling popcorn, the units needed to get permission from council. And unless the fund raiser was in some kind of conflict of interest or involved with something of an adult nature (like selling beer at the fair), council approval was almost automatic. I think your fund raising chairman just hasn't asked using the application in Jameson's post. Like you, our scouts wear the uniform no matter what council said because the chartering organization wants it. Barry