Eagledad

Yep, don't start climbing that tree. Call your UC, then the District Commissioner, then the DE. And try to stop there with the solution. Curious, why didn't the two troops have separate elections? Barry

I believe friendship is part of balance. Barry

Just explain the value of balance, and they will usually get where you want to go. Barry

Yes, but we don't know what the youth want on this basically adult forum. And since we don't know what they want, we don't know who the grumpy adults are. Fashionista's or traditionalists. Barry

Do you have the resources for the canoe trip? I'm sure you do, but the misjudge the logistics required for such a trip. Food, patrol gear, personal gear and water gear add up to A LOT. Start planning NOW because this isn't a typical weekend trip for Patrols. A good place to start is to consider an outfitter and quiz them about your trip. Barry

It seems many of the ladies like the style. OK, I'm shaking my head in wonder. I miss Boy Scouts. Barry

This situation is why I'm not a big fan of NSPs, or really the process of crossing everyone over about the same time. Before NSPs (in my youth), scouts crossed over when they reached a certain age. So, troops didn't receive herds of new scouts all at once. They typically received two, maybe thee new scouts a month. Maybe even a couple more, I don't remember, but patrols typically receive one or two new scout every few months. So, patrols weren't overwhelmed with the responsibility of new scouts and advancement was done by the patrol as a whole. This week some first-aid, next week some knots. It wasn't hard or overwhelming like todays herds of scouts needing the same rank at the same time. I find the NSP process frustrating because when the patrols controlled advancement, there was not an annual troop activities agenda every year designed to get new scouts up to rank. The patrols controlled advancement, not the troop. But most troops today have a typical annual agenda they repeat every year intended to get all the new scouts up to rank. They aren't purposely wanting to make everyone the same rank at the same time, but the annual agenda forces scouts to make decisions they wouldn't normal make. This month's troop theme is First-aid, next months is Pioneering for Knots. NSPs take away some of the independence and creativity for planning activities. National wasn't trying to take away a little bit of patrol method from the scouts, but they did. They found that the BSA looses more scouts in their first year troop experience than any other age. Their thinking was that if they moved the scouts together with their friends in one big swoop, they would improve troop membership numbers. But, to counter the problem of growth (advancement and getting scouts assimilated into the troop environment), they created the Troop Guide and a program called NSPs. Again, the NSP seems to fit the Patrol Method design. It looks good from a concept, so the scouts aren't really loosing anything. Supposedly. But, one thing leads to another and the Patrol Method Boy Run process becomes more diluted into adult run and the troop program as a whole looses it's power for developing leaders of integrity and citizens of character. First, all growth has to come from the outside of the patrol. I know, TGs aren't considered outside, but yes they are. In a year, the TG is gone and the patrol is on it's own. See, in a natural ideal patrol, the young scouts don't learn by constant lectures from the older patrol mates. The young scouts learn simply by watching. 90% of everything a scout learns by 14 years of age was likely learned by watching, especially leadership. But, a NSP doesn't have the older experienced role models, so growth has to come from outside the patrol. And typically, initiated by adults. Second, National change the expectation of the patrol design from the traditional mixed age patrols to same age patrols so that NSPs would naturally continue together until they aged out. Again, from the initial design perspective, leaving the scout together seems reasonable. But, if maturity is gained from the experience of observing older scouts in action ( let's say leadership), then where do scouts with no experienced leaders learn how to lead. Well, here comes Junior Leadership Training (JLT). And who implements JLT? Adults. The problem with JLT is that training at best only highlights what a leader needs to be effective. JLT works great to help experienced leaders learn new tricks to be a better leader. JLT is terrible for teaching experienced leaders how to lead. So, who fills in the gaps of leadership when the leader runs into a situation that they don't know how to control? Adults. And it gets worse. As adults take over more of the scouts growth, the feed on it and take on more and more. I once listened to a SM explaining why he didn't let scouts young than 14 lead PLCs. They were just plain to immature. 95% of troops for 100 years let their scouts lead PLCs, but he just couldn't see it in his scouts. Is it right to blame the trend of less youth responsibility for their grwoth experience? Maybe not, but NSPs are a huge reason for it. It's been a few years, but I did look at the National numbers for new scouts and found that the NSP had not improved the first year troop numbers. It turns out that the reason scouts quit in their first year is more complicated. But we are stuck the NSPs. Barry

Quite true. When I left for college, my mother was going through a tough time after her divorce. In her depression, she sold anything that she didn't see important in her life at a garage sale, much of which was my scouting gear. 30 years later while moving her to another retirement house, I stumble across a small brittle card board box with my scout shirt, neckerchief and a few of those cards. As qwazse points out, the signatures on those cards were valuable part of the treasure. Also, for some reason I can't explain, our scouts lost their books more often than they lost their cards. And those cards save more than one scout in proving their advancement for Eagle. Of course, records are more accurate with computers today (am I really that old), but as someone who uses computers everyday in my work, I know computers only do what we tell them to do, not what we want them to do. Barry

It will be interesting to watch. Both my sons in their 30s have made some comments lately without any input from me that scouting as they knew is gone. They don't really know what it is now, but admitting girls was the final straw. I wouldn't call them conservative, political or even cultural. They see the change as radical and if they are going that far, what else have they changed. I can't disagree, not because of just the girls, but also because changes intended to protect the scouts. The differences between my dads program in WWII and mine in the early 70s was hardly noticeable. In fact, I wore much of my dads uniform. The only real noticeable difference in program from the early 70's and my sons experience in the 90s was the addition of women leaders, and the short shorts men wore (glad that's over). But the difference my grand kids will see in 10 years compared to their dads experience is already significant. And if many here have their way, the uniforms will look something similar to only tie dye neckerchiefs. Self-reliance and Independence? Well, I guess that's subjective. Self-reliance is a direct response to independence, and I believe independence is being whittled away in different forms. Instead, scouting will have to become the FUN program of group adventures with a tinge of independence, so long as two adults are near by. I'm not being skeptical, I'm being realistic. I've been doing this long enough that I have seen how small program changes start a chain of culture ideals. I don't see Self-reliance and independence as the realistic objectives because the basis for those goals is independent decision making. And I don't believe adults today trust youth enough to give that kind of independence. I'm not even sure the changing rules and policies will give the scouts enough room for that independence. I think Fun Group Adventure is the scouting motto of the future. Barry

Exactly. I created a course called "Patrol Method and Boy Run" intended to give adult leaders a better understanding of growth that comes from independent decision making. One of the lessons I gave was how to reduce adult fears that hold back scouts. Basically it is what mrkstven said, teach the scouts how to deal with the situation the adults fear. What would adults do different than properly "Prepared" scouts with a snake bite incident? In fact, my typical example in the course was Scout hikes without adults. But, it can be anything, right. I was even asked to help the adults of a new troop let their scouts run the flag ceremony during their Troop Meetings. Adult fears can be as simple as that. Barry

This is what I meant about the struggle with bringing in girls. It's the not girls that dilute the experience Boy Scouting, its the inexperienced adult leaders who drive the fun out of the program by pushing a naive agenda. No disrespect Mom2scouts, it's not your fault. I've been watching the BSA loose experience scouters to non experienced scouters for 30 years. I think it's the reality of the times. How can we teach inexperienced adults to use fun as the primary source for acheaving all the other goals? It's a game with a purpose. Adults need to learn the game. Barry

Maybe, but there is a reason wheel-chair athletes start first in local running races. Since I only run in those races, I don't have experience to compare advantages of Nikes vs Wheels. But as an engineer, I know gravity is a powerful force. As for the OPs question; if the scouts intentions are honorable, we tend to respond to their advantage. Barry

Once in a while the scouts met at my house and I barbecued burgers and dogs while they had their meeting. Sometimes the scout ran their PLC or Patrol Corners outside if the weather was good. As Valleyboy said, provide the 2 deep leadership and you can have a meeting just about anywhere. In fact, do a Troop Meeting somewhere different like a park just to break the monotony. Barry

When is the unit membership renewal? Barry

This has to be watched in todays BSA of course, but I can recall only one situation where two scouts with more than two years difference in mixed age patrols tented together. The one situation was parents asking an older scout (16 years old) to watch their mentally retarded son. Barry

Sounds like you have a good feel for how a patrol should work. I have never understood the idea behind ad hoc patrols, in fact if only one scout in a patrol showed up to a campout, he was treated as a patrol. I am not a fan of NSPs, but agree that when the number of crossovers overwhelm a troop. it's one of the better approaches to getting new scouts up to speed. I am not a fan of new scouts taking on patrol leader duties because they don't have the maturity to learn and grow from the experience. We had better luck with assigning two TGs to a patrol and role modeling how the patrol leaders should work in a patrol. Also, two scouts don't burn out as fast. New scouts are high energy even for older scouts. I do agree with dividing and never found that to be a problem, we just simply asked the scouts which friends they would like to patrol with. Most have just one or two they really want to be around. If they understand a split is coming and you ask for their help, they usually figure it out. It's important to note that the BSA looses more scouts during the first 6 months in a troop than any other period of a youth career in scouting. The reason is the sudden culture change from an adult led lifestyle to an independent decision making lifestyle. While the appearance of independence is appealing at first, the sudden realization that their life is not only determined by their personal choices, but also the choices of leaders nearly their age. That means where they sleep, what they eat, and their personal safety in the deep dark scary woods is dependent on that 14 year old SPL, not the adults. We learned through the humility of loosing large numbers of new scouts that these young folks need an adult working close with the TGs. The adult is the safety valve for the both the parents and their new scout son. The parents and the new scout are advised to contact the adult (ASM) only when they feel overwhelmed. The ASM will however in most cases guide both the parents and the scout to the TGs. The main purpose of the ASM is to show trust in the scout leaders (TGs) and their decisions so that the parents and the new scout learn to trust the scouts. The ASM checks in on the new scout now and then and sometimes the parents to show they are somewhere in the background. They are always calm, work a smile, and never over reacts. They always seek out the counsel with the youth leaders. The youth leaders are truly the leaders, so just give them a chance. We found, and national data also shows, that if a scout makes it past summer camp without quitting, they will likely stay in the program several years. So, the first six months are critical. We found that the scouts were ready to merge into existing patrols after six months. The sooner, the better. NSPs don't have the experience or maturity to push growth in their patrol. Either the adults have to get more involved to push growth (which is counter to the patrol method), or the scouts get bored. They need to be fed with the experience of older scouts. I think you have a good vision of how to run your troop, but my experience is that you biggest challenge is selling the adults on it. Get tough and firm. Have a good reason for your ideas and then sell them on giving them a try. Fifty percent of Scoutmastering is working with the adults. And 50 percent of working with adults is being a good salesman, especially in patrol method troops. You're a big picture person, most adults are not. So, learn how to color your vision so they can see a picture of great scouts coming from your troop. I look forward to watching you grow. Barry

Something I turned around when I was on District was what I called "stealth Scouting for Food". District (council) started streamlining the process by dropping off donation bags at the home mail box or door on Saturday and picking them up at the door the next week. First off, that requires TWO weekends of a unit agenda, not one. Second; the public never met any of the scouts during either days. We found that folks really enjoyed meeting our scouts when they went door to door asking for donations. The community got to actually meet and talk with the scouts. Our scouts introduced themselves with their name and unit number before asking for the donations. And we got a ton of donations. Units that went door to door increased donations 30 to 40 percent. Service projects should be planned so that the public personally gets to meet and observe scouts in action. I'm not sure why, but the Cub Scouts enjoyed the door to door Scouting for Food more than the Troop scouts. Maybe it has something to do with the cute shy 7 year old in a uniform too big for him holding a scouting for food sack half his height. But , packs that went door to door always came back with more donations than the cars could hold. Barry

I guess interim, but this was typical during my scouting years. I used a backpack and duffel bag on weekend troop camp outs and only the backpack on crew trips. I used the duffel bag for the pillow, non-mummy sleeping bag, camp chair, and a couple other items of comfort that I didn't take on crew trips. As you said, easy to transport and handle. I only used two duffel bags (no backpack) for summer camp. I also took a tote box for the Scoutmaster management stuff. But still easy to transport and handle. My ground pad for back country crew trips was a 3/4 length closed cell pad that was just long enough to cover from head to thigh. I use my coat or clothing for my lower legs. It wasn't so much weight that I was saving, but pack space. Inflatable pads are OK, but my 3/4 closed cell was half the weight and space. Of course that was 20 years ago. There is probably some new fangled something or other that is even lighter now. Ahhh technology. Barry

I found that mothers are the hard sell. You will have to explain the reasoning to me, but moms are very skeptical that patrol method does anything toward character growth. So, I learned to develop my sells pitch to mothers. Still, in most cases, they weren't sold on Patrol Method until they saw the results in person. They were Type A converts that were so passionate of what Patrol Method could do for scouts that they went out and marketed the program to their packs. We never had to go look for Webelos visitors because they called us to get our moms off their back. I have several experiences like this. Two of those skeptical mothers became the two best CCs I ever knew. So, since you are a mother who has proven yourself on this forum a passionate believer of this program, you are probably the best marketer for your troop as well. Barry

I like to tell this story to show the perspective of what Webelos are looking for; at our Blue and Gold of my first year as Cub Master, I asked our Webelos why they chose the troop they were about to join in a few minute at our crossover cerimony. They all said because that troop had the best game during their Troop Meeting. The Webelos leader told me six months later that only one of all those Webelos was still in scouting. Make no mistake about it, parents drive what the sons (and daughters) are looking for. I gave the example of scouts who bucked their parents opinion and joined our troop, but those stories are rare compared to the ones who obeyed their parents. Our troop grew from 17 scouts to 100 scouts in six years. That isn't as amazing as the fact that we average 28 new Webelos crossover scouts every year in a district with 22 troops. We could have been a lot bigger, but because we grew so fast, we had to relearn how to run a patrol method program every year for the first few years and as a result, we lost A Lot of scouts. That is why I know A LOT about working with new first year scouts. ANYWAY, we had huge crossover groups because we sold the Webelos Leader our program. If you sell the Webelos Leader, you sell the whole den because the leader will tell the parents where they are going. And one thing else we learned, if you sell one Webelos leader your program and they like it, they will sell the next year Webelos leaders. Once you get that going, you won't want have to market your program, they will do it for you. And I agree about putting it on paper, we develop a visitors guide that was all about the fun we were going have for the next 12 months. I would say that out of all the information that we gave visitors (Parents) to sway them toward our troop, a fun agenda was the top motivator. So, while you are developing patrol method program where the girls do all the planning, the adults need to push a fun fun program agenda. There are ways to influence scouts decisions without being intrusive to the patrol method program. Marketing is very important. Barry

I think your problem is the Webelos parents, not their daughters. We had several parents that didn’t care for our more chaotic appearance, but their son Insisted our troop was the one they wanted. Are these girls at least visiting your troop? Barry

I wonder if this could turn into an international virus (youthorgvirus). I'm sure the BSA is not the only youth organization with victims. Where there is a will, there is a lawyer. Barry

A good UC/unit relationship requires openness on both sides. I wasn’t a UC, but I helped a few with my more specific expertises. Every SM has a different personality as well as an idealistic perspective of working towards their vision. I remember when our UC advised me not to go from 1 month PLC meetings to weekly PLC meetings. He didn’t have a good reason other than he had never seen it before. I didn’t take his advise. I was asked to help a new SM work toward a more patrol method program. One of my suggestions was let the scouts run the PLC meetings. He couldn’t believe scouts under 14 had the maturity plan meetings and campouts, so he didn’t accept my advice. Both troops in those examples were the fastest growing troops in the district topping out around 100 scouts. Just how hard do You think district is going to push the SMs when their unit is one of the five largest troops in the district? Our troop had the best and most experienced UC in the district and our families became good friends. He was a very successful SM with a Silver Beaver, but we didn’t agree on everything. Just like with patrols, sometimes you have to let the unit live with bad decisions long enough to find the humility to listen and change. From my experience of working with Scoutmasters, humility is hard to come-by. Barry

Sorry, busy morning. I believe the DC is the most powerful and misunderstood volunteer position in scouting. Not only are they responsible for UCs (leadership), but they are also one of the Key 3 (vision).

I believe the DC is the most powerful and I misunderstood volunteer position in scouting. Not only are they responsible for UCs leadership, but they are also one of the Key 3 (vision). Barry