Eagledad

LOL, I guess not. Barry

So, you are trying to look smarter by scrapling with words, shesh, some of us just want to get scouting back on the tracks. Here, maybe we can get the real important subject going again, Mrjeff you are the smartest person on the forum. Can we move on now? Barry

We had it when I was a scout and after my involvement of working with the maturities of youth, I believe there should be and age limit of 14. There is even and biological reason for it; 14 is the the average age when puberty changes the maturity of at least the male brain from the instinct of learning to survive to the instinct to protect and provide. Based from my experience, I believe strongly that scouts aren't ready for the real responsibilities of leadership or role modeling adult maturity until 14 years old, give or take. In fact, we didn't allow scouts to participate in NYLT until 14 because of that reasoning. There are exceptions of course for exceptional scouts, but they had to apply and prove their maturity. If we really want OA to get back it's Noble reputation back, we have to start by only accepting qualified scouts of maturity. Barry

I believe with all my heart the Law and Oath encapsulate everything to be the best kind of person the world needs. I also believe that self righteousness blocks the path to that idealistic mark. My experience is that people spend too much time trying to be the smartest person in the room instead of modeling the virtuous tone of humble patience. Seems the culture doesn't have the humility for scouting anymore. Barry

I gotta say this is one of the more bigoted and ignorant post I've read here in a while. Too much misunderstanding to even start bring balance, but in context of morality and character, just because the culture accepts bad behavior doesn't mean it isn't bad for the culture. Barry

I used to tell Webelos leaders that if games was half their meeting, they will have no problem with scout attendance. While I was SM, I would visit my younger sons Bear meetings just to watch. The leader was like me in that he wasn't good at details. Details like advancement. So, the first half of his meeting was doing some scout stuff, then the rest was basket ball, baseball, or whatever he could think of for that meeting. The games usually involved the boys getting sweaty, Those scout couldn't wait to got to his next meetings. I took over his scouts as their webelos leader and I kept basically the same pattern. Fun scouting stuff followed by games. If the fun scouting stuff turned out boring (not me), the game always save the day. Dkurtenbach is right, at least for the Cub Scouts. I've been preaching for years that Cub Scouts is way way to complicated and actually driving families away from scouting before they even get to the Troops. Troops are different problem of adults interfering with the intended program. Barry

That is interesting. Our troop in the 70s had the 14 year old restriction and limited to two scouts per year. I remember that these guys were typically friendly to all scouts and were well skilled in outdoor skills. The Ordeal back then required the scout to sleep by himself in the wood overnight in total silence. That alone requires a maturity of someone of great confidence. And I will say, someone special. I would agree that that kind of person would be an older scout. But, I had one scout in my troop who was a natural leader and a skilled woodsmen at the age of 12. He was just a neat guy who naturally made everyone like themselves and loved scouting. Ironically, the one part of scouting he hated was advancement. The only reason he earned first class (at the encouragement of his patrol) was so he could be eligible to run for SPL. He was the scout who taught me to take out restrictions and let skills and character direct a scout's path. Barry

Before NYLT was JLTC (Junior Leadership Training Conference). Our troop started doing our own version for the PLC and the council liked it so much that they asked us to do trial versions at the counsel level. We used the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbook for skills guides. You can do one yourself, just identify what skills you want the scouts to learn, then find fun ways to teach them. Do the course over a weekend of camping, backpacking, canoeing, or biking. Or all four. It should be something different from a typical camp out and some special. Movies and pizza would not be out of order. The key is don’t waist time teaching what a senior scouts already know, teach what they need to lead others so that they grow in their leadership experience themselves. Barry

We typically would do outdoor meetings when the weather allowed. While the adults usually stayed in another room, outdoors gave us more room to give the scouts space from the adults. This is a nice unforeseen benefit. Still, the adults need to use some initiative to give the scouts as much separation as possible for the positive results of using Patrol Method. I think both the adults and scout will find using the outdoors is a lot easier for using space without pushing the limits of policies. The PLC can add verity to their program by meeting other places like a nearby park or school football field, depending on the meeting agenda and theme. Not only our troop met at other places, so did my Webelos. If the weather was nice, we tried to meet outside and often at another location. Barry

More likely Philmont was just stuck waiting for the state to make decisions on public openings and has ran out of time to have the camp ready. Barry

The next few weeks will be interesting. Our area (probably state) is almost back to normal. Little League Baseball at the nearby park is in full swing and businesses are almost back to normal. I don't know what Council is doing yet, but I can't see why meetings would be discouraged. Barry

Sorry. Wife also calls me on my expectation of reading my mind.

No need to delete. The references could be useful in the future. Barry

You are missing the point. There is no silver bullet for the BSA. Barry

I saw another anti-tobacco commercial last night. The anti tobacco lobby in the 70's and 80's made a lot of lawyers very rich by getting huge awards from the tobacco companies. As a result of that effort, smoking today in the USA is deemed so unacceptable (evil?), smokers are viewed as a lower class or damaged in character. So, why is there still so much anti-tobacco marketing? Barry

Yes, but it always was in the context of a SM, or role model. Boys were getting together and having fun long before Badon Powell started the program. The problem was the kind of fun they were having was not developing a better person. In fact, their fun was developing the wrong kind of character. BP started a program where the activities developed growth. The difference between the UK and the BSA was the BSA got more specific on the vision. But, not out of context with Badon Powell. BDs comments to Scoutmasters were always directed to giving scouts responsibility for making personal decisions that would develop growth in character and actions towards others. The reason, the only reason that Scouting exist today is because of the oath and law corner stone principles that hold the vision together. Without the Oath and Law, scouting would have fallen apart years ago because all games must have purpose if they are to survive the judge of time. Vision is an anchor that maintains success. The Oath and Law are the principles of the vision. If you want to discuss how scouting today has lost the soul of outdoors program, you will get lots of thumbs up. But to suggest the program isn't more than kids going camping, well I disagree. Barry

Sorry, I disagree. Scouting started as an adult program to develop growth in youth through the method of outdoors. The Vision and Mission support the goal. You may not like it because you want to be just for kids, but that is the reality. Barry

Units don't necessarily recharter at the same time. Because units use to recharter when they were created, that was their recharter date. Very very confusing. I've seen the districts organize the same month for rechartering, but I don't think National has. Of course, I've been out if that part of scouting for a while. . Barry

Looking back, our troop was successful on this part and I will give credit to "(Eagle is not supposed to be 'got', it is supposed to be earned)". Our program focused on the scout journey because we learned that each scout's individual vision is each scouts individual vision. And as a result, our program developed a reputation for boy run, fun, and adventure. Our troop averaged a new Eagle every 2.5 month at the average age of 16. That was the result of a fun program of adventure with a focus on Patrol Method, Not a focus on Eagle. The Eagle was just a by product of having fun. Usually 90% of our older scouts attended summer camp until they aged out. I used summer camp as point because older scouts don't in general like to repeat summer camp over and over. And, I know that "aged out" could suggest not continuing into to adult leadership, but it was a term of bragging for us because 95% of our Eagles were active youth in our troop until age 18. I think the BSA can try and make a go of it as some kind of outdoors program. But what made scouting a noble program was it's values (character). I don't feel the present management doesn't has the will to include values as even an equal benefit to outdoors, much less as the main objective. I heard the BSA Mission and Vision were recently changed. I will have to check that out. Still, I think there is some debate of what drove the long success of the program, values or adventure. For our program Values drove us to build a program of adventure that all the scouts would not only enjoy participating, but but growing as well. Barry

In 1993, I was introduced by a friend to her friend, the regional gay activist. In a brief discussion about the BSA, he said they were taking down the organization because of it's moral ideals that are contrary to the modern culture. I thought the guy was nuts at the time. Now, I understand. I feel sorry for the future families who will miss out on the scouting program that my dad, my sons and I got to experience. While is was a values program, it didn't have any foothold in the political nature. Activism has changed that. I'm feeling especially sorry for the more liberal families that would enjoy even today's program because I can see that Scouting is becoming more projected as a conservative program. In this political climate, I'm am not sure that scouting can ever appeal as a non political program ever again. Barry

So true. The mother of a 14 year old scout told me that her 17 year old son went on a high school field outing and the forecast was lots of rain. The 17 year old went and asked the 14 year old how to dress for the outing. The 14 year old couldn't figure out the big deal. National may now be forced to do that very thing. I might be interested in getting my grandkids into that program. Barry

That may be more profound that we realize. Our troop started out with heavy patrol boxes that required four scouts to carry from the trailer to the campsite. When we decided to become a dedicated backpacking troop (meaning carry all gear into camp with personal packs), we decided to make the switch over 6 month period. We thought the scouts would have a hard time getting away from the patrol boxes. Boy were we wrong. None of the six patrols took a patrol box ever again after the decision was made. We became an instant back packing troop, well except for the adults. Patrol Boxes were "work" in just about every aspect of the word. Camping out of the back pack was fun because it was basic. Patrols liked backpacking so long as they were moving to new camps. But, the dreaded hiking without gear (5 mile hike) or coming back to the same camp with gear as we often did for shake downs was not considered fun. Camping is fun if it isn't work. But only the scouts could define what is and isn't work. Barry

I agree. I polled our older scouts (14 and older) at the height of our troop program as to why they liked our troop, less than 25% said it was for the activities side of the program. First on their list was hanging out with their friends. I believe there was more to that because what would make our program more attractive than other Troops if it were really only about hanging out with friends. At the time, we had more age 14 and older scouts than any other troop or Venturing program unit in the council. But that is still a pretty awakening statistic. Barry

Sadly, this is basically the model of the majority troops. I call them 1st Class troops because they do is 1st Class requirements type of program. The older scouts get bored because after surviving 3 years of following a 1st class type program, they are expected to repeat their experience as the leaders of the same program designed for the younger scouts. It's is what many adults call a babysitting program. Ironically, it's the program they made and support, but don't understand how limits scout maturity. A troop that focuses on activities that challenges all levels of maturity and experiences are the programs where older scouts enjoy mentoring younger scouts while still enjoying challenging mature activities. Barry

This used to be the expectation of Explorers before it was pushed as Troop older scout program. I know my scuba Explorers was very much a higher maturity experience. I grew up a lot in that program. I think what has to change is first get rid of the Troop Venture Patrol program and then bring back Explorers in the context of specific sponsors who associate to the specific theme like Law Enforcement, Rescue, Emergency care, Aviation and so forth. Leave the general outdoor adventure activities like backpacking and canoeing to the Venturing program for troop programs. Barry