Eagledad

>>Boys do stupid things and adults should be ever vigilant to any and all situations,

I dont think it really matters whether you use an SPL or PL, the goal at this point of time is to develop a patrol method type program. As Eamonn said, that is a challenge on its own. I suggest that all the scouts and all the adults involved get the Patrol Leaders Handbook. That gives everyone a guideline toward where they should be going, and how to get there. I also suggest that the adults, at least the SM, get the SPL Handbook for himself and the youth leader so they can work together under the same guidelines. These books are a quick read and very clear. They are enough to point the

My dad's Scoutmaster didn't go with them on many campouts. They would tell the SM about their experiences at the next Troop meeting and he would then discuss with them how to do the things they did wrong differently the next time. That was during WWII and their SM couldn't go out of necessity. But I wonder if that should have been the norm. Now of course my dads troop never camped any farther away than they were willing to hike out of Laurel Mississippi. Still, I'm sure it was an adventure. Barry

I stayed away from the troop for six months while the new scoutmaster got his feet under him. It was the hardest six months of my life. As much as that job enhanced my life and gave me the ability to give so much of myself, I could probably never scoutmaster again because of that six months. I love that scouting stuff. Barry

>>I am talking about "bragging rights" which can be lost when bested. The events I described are posted on a big white board for all to see.

I like the idea of a known set of coordinates for troops that have not done geocaching. Our troop likes to do survival geocaching where the scouts need to find the boxes for firestarting, food and other nice to have needs when you are dumped out in the wilderness with nothing accept a sleeping bag. It takes time to set up a geocaching course. Barry

>>Is there program experience that one can comment on where the program went back and re-emphasized scout skills as a means to improving patrol leader success?

What ever you teach them, work to make all the instruction consistent between the teachers so that they are role modeling a style of teaching for the scouts. And, since you eventually plan to hand the responsibility over to the scouts, your instruction to the ASMs should be the same one you plan to give the scouts. For example, our troop does something like this for our adults and scout: 1.Introduce yourself. 2.Tell them what you are going to teach. 3.Hold up the resource of what you are going to teach so they know where to find it. (Scout handbook, MB book, other) 4.Demonstrate the

Wow Twocubdad, that is a great post and you are right on target. I learned back in college that about 4 percent of the population is natural leaders, or in your words the charismatic leader. But scouting is a program that develops the other 96 percent into leaders as well. I also want to support what you said about the scout craft skills. Done correctly, the first class skills program is one of the best tools for teaching leadership skills. . I have always said that what scouting does so well is develop confidence. It really doesnt matter how skilled you are if you have the confide

So what I gather you are saying Stosh is that your cherry picking post didn't apply to this thread and you were really starting a new one. OK. By the way, I knew what cherry picking meant, it just didn't make sense to the discussion. Barry

>>Cherry picking your best boys to get special treatment is viewed by all the outsiders as unfair, and a point of conflict for those sitting close on the fence. Without teamwork of the patrols, this problem will always arise in the troop.

Sounds like your Scoutmaster is a really good man Beav. No surprise, I enjoy reading your braggings about your troop, and your son. I also learned quickly to ignore age and because some boys mature faster, or slower, than others. And we once had an 11 year old bicycle racer in our troop, how could I tell him he wasnt qualified to go on a High Adventure bicycle trip in reality, we need him to train us? One other thing that you kind of hinted to is the SM also has to be of some authority for the adults. Just like with the boys, I learned the hard way that adults need to prove themselves as

Yes, from the scouts perspective, shakedowns are important for training and for finding our physical and mental weaknesses. But there is a bigger issue here and you nailed it, maturity. This is one of those situations where the boys have to learn the lesson. If they dont learn it here, it is going to hurt a lot more later on in life. Who knows if they listened to your wisdom, but that is your job and I know you do it well. Before I became a SM, I was talking to a Scouter whom I respected very much. He was a very successful SM of one of the most boy run troops in our town. He told me

No games or tricks here Dan, thats not my style. Apparently you feel the need to belittle folks whom you dont agree to discredit them. You know you can have discussions without being confrontational. For example, if your data is so good, why would confrontation be necessary? I guess we need a psychologist to explain that. Thats OK Dan, you go ahead and attack away, but send me your data on the small conclusive studies so I can research just how non-biased they are. But get ready, if you really know anything about this kind of research, then you also know that your conclusive conclusion is

>>Then it won't be hard to cite some evidence that shows this for two-parent families where both parents are the same-sex, from credible, non-biased sources, as aquaticeagle has asked, twice now

>>How so? Because the kids will grow up outside of a box and will learn that the world is not Pleasantville? I can pretty much guarantee you that alcoholic or drug-abusing parents and parents who die at an early age from lung cancer have a much greater impact on a childhood than a child being raised by two women or two men.

>>Taking away the rights of people that are out to do no harm to anyone else is discrimination whether it be about race, ethnicity or sexual preference

>>It's sad. Many people still think that being black is not something they want their kids to think is normal or beneficial for a healthy family environment.>Barry, generally only the agrarian monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) view homosexuality as a sin. Most of the other religions in the world are more tolerant of such naturally occurring human diversity

>>Not every religion has a problem with homosexuality, or sees it as an impediment to being morally straight.

It takes away the practice of learning responsibility and the process of follow thru. It is a convenience for the summer camp staff, which I can understand. But as a SM, I'm in it for the growth of my scouts. I would still use the blue cards and request the staff support my wishes. Barry

The problem is the program leader is not directing it to happen. If the SM pushed and and explained the value of the guys going it alone or at least as few adults possible, the adults would follow because their sons would gain from it. I kind feel from your comments that they don't care. It doesn't even sound like they are afraid of letting the scouts go it alone, they just want to use the Patrol to play. Until the adults change, you have found the limitations of your troop program. This is as good as it gets for all the scouts. The good thing is your persistence might have the effect o

>>If you'll read what I've been posting here, you'll see that I've written several times that when a belief involves harming anyone it is not okay.

>>By excluding gays the BSA is telling the youth of America that it is not okay to be yourself and be true to your heart.

>> I'm hoping the SPL will have at least some meals with the adults as that is a great time to have a conversation about what's going on with the Troop, and what's coming up.

>>We envision the SPL camping and eating with the adults, which we hope will provide even more evidence that we are willing to treat the youth leaders as peers in running the Troop, if they will step up to the challenge.