Eagledad

>>it just looks to me like another org set up to make a political statement, and IMO using children to further politics is the worst kind of heinous.

I wish you luck Stosh because this is a time of true reflection. I believe that before anything else, a scouting program has to be fun to grow. Your "roll up your sleeves" comment kind of suggest a work first play later program and that just doesn't work with boys. Doesn't really work that well with adults either in the long term. "Leadership performance" has to be a result of practice in program activities. Program activities has to the fun part of scouting. I think most who have put the time in will agree that it takes a minimum of 5 or 6 years for a boy led program to mature into a true boy run program. It might be that you pushed the time line a little hard. As much as we talk about leadership development coming from leadership training and coaching from the adults, I'm convince that 80% of leadership performance comes from the boys watching other boy leaders in action. It just takes a lot longer than 2 years to for that to happen. We adults know how it should work, but we just can't tell the scouts how to do it and expect them to change, they have to experience it to believe in it. They have to feel that it is worth the effort. Adults have to be very patient because change and growth will not happen at an adult pace. While we may set our vision and goals from a theory, we can't force the theory into reality. A vision or goal is usually met by many many very small changes that come from reflection of performance. Boys are pretty honest about how they feel about things, but sometime our Egos don't allow us to listen. Adults have to grow as much as the boys for a boy run program to become successful. It can't happen on persons terms. You can't force a theory. When ever I heard a scout complain that something, anything, that we did in our program wasn't fun, I challenge them to find a more fun way of doing it. If the scouts don't want to come and play, you don't get the chance to develop them. It may require some sacrifice (patience) on your part. Barry

Well Ive been there and my daughter (now 19) does not look back on my SM days as a time where her brothers had an advantage with me. I do agree there has to be a balance with the family and that requires sacrifices on your part. The SM is presumed needed and wanted everywhere everyday. I was asked a lot, but learned quickly to never accept a request to join district and council training staffs. I promised that I would join staffs after I retired as SM and sure nuff the phone was ringing the day after. I always wanted to go to Training at Philmont, but never did because I limited my time away at summer to two weeks max, one week for summer camp and one for high adventure. I even missed a couple high adventure summers when my vacation was limited. Our family to this day still takes a week vacation together every summer, so that was a higher priority. I also delegated ASMs to attend round table so that I wasnt always expected to represent the troop. I didnt stay at all overnight troop activities. There was no requirement for a SM at all night lock-ins, so I traditionally skipped those. If one wanted, a SM could find a reason to be gone every day of the year, and especially every weekend it they choose. So every SM has to find a balance. I had some conflict with my wife and kids at first and they asked (in their own way) to give them a balance of NON-scout time. We eventually had a rule that NO scouting was discussed at the supper table. I guess we worked it out OK because my wife brags she was very proud of my time as a Scoutmaster. Many Scoutmasters have wives who are fully supportive and even get pretty active with the troop. That was not Tamara. Scoutmaster is different than ASM in that the responsibility for the program wears into a person both physically and mentally. It will make you a better spouse and parent because you get a lot of practice working with both youth and adults. Lots of practice. I even have friends who come to me now asking why their kids are acting a certain way and how they should handle that. Im no Dr. Barry, but they like that I play one when they struggle with their kids. I certainly dont always have answers, but I am surprised by how most boys go through the same phases of life. "Its just a phase" is actually a very comforting to many parents. All families are different, but it was important for me that my daughter got as much of her dad as was required. All the scouts knew Annie well because she attended many meetings. I think it is important to know that I was a soccer coach as well and a member of the church committee. So I really really had to make some hard choices with time and family. I only missed three weekend campouts that I can remember and that was for family activities. Strange, but the troop didnt seem to miss me on those campouts. The rewards are great if you dont get into to much trouble. The opportunity to give boys a little something of yourself that will make their future in life just a little better is hard to pass. The stress is great as well and if you dont force yourself to make the right balances, you will end up with a life time of regrets. But my wife and kids dont look back on scouting with any regrets, so I guess we did OK. I love this scouting stuff Barry

>>But I was never a boy scout so Barry, perhaps by your metric, those experiences didn't count for me.

I don't think it is Cub Scouts because the Cubs have been around for a long time. I think it is in the last generation of leaders who were never Scouts as a youth. Its not that they are self-centered or tunnel visioned, they just don't know what scouting is outside of hand books and leader training courses. I once had a call from a new Scoutmaster who asked me how to fill the rest of the weekend on his campouts because his scouts had done all the advancement and were tired of repeating it. When I asked what they scouts did on their free time, he said he had never heard of free time on campouts. We are forgetting how to let scouts stand around the patrol fire talking about anything. Some of us are more concerned about lights out than looking at stars or two scouts sitting by the fire talking about the day. We hike to advance, but how many of us get up early to go fish. How many troops adults cook on Sunday just so they can get out of camp early? Whats the hurry and how about a little capture the flag before we leave camp. Advancement is the Scoutmasters responsibility but I have found the committee takes on more of that responsibility by signing up the scouts for summer camp and the MB Fair. Old cogers like me seem out of step when we stand up and protest. Not sure we can change the trend as long as more than 50% of the scouters today don't know what it is like to be a Boy Scout. Barry

I personally think its a waste of time to send a scout if somebody doesn't go for the adults side. Way back when, our council ask some questions of all the past scout participants and the Scoutmasters to find where the course was lacking. The number one complain from the scoutmasters was they didn't have clue what the scouts learned. The number one complaint from the scouts was the Scoutmasters didn't let them try their new skills. Our Scoutmaster course was a half day after that, and then we had the scouts sit with the Scoutmaster and discuss how they were going to work in the new skills. The problem is if the SM doesn't understand the new skills and the scout doesn't explain them well, nothing really changes. Its not that the SMs are stubborn or only want to do it their way, the Scoutmaster just don't know how to support the scout on the little information that he receives. Personally I have always felt the SMs really need to attend most of the course to really get an understanding of the scouts part of the course. Send a couple of adults that the scoutmaster trust and will take advice. Barry

>>In our area Scout-O-Rama is supposed to be such an expo, but it doesn't seem to get well publicized as such. The Council also charges admission. As a result hardly anyone from the public comes in and it has mostly become another campout with events

>>The problem, as I see it, is that we don't promote our actions. Scouts aren't highly visible in many communities anymore. I think we need to be more visible.

>>John Wayne were often on our TV (and Dave Garroway. Dates me, I guess). Good guys catch and kill bad guys. I "died" my share on the playground. But this is a different time.

>>We have way too much to do with our camping program, service projects, and other Scout activities to even think about adding such a stupid activity. I am with SMT224 on this one. Scouts should outdoors. Period.

>>Being marginalized by an ever increasing decadent society is not a bad thing.

Shesh. My younger son and his 11 buddies have know each other since age five when we started their soccer team. They are all in scouts, the same soccer team and in the same youth group at church. Not to mention all the other local activities like school and so on. This group of boys spent a week canoeing the Bounder Waters for their high school graduation trip. Their church sponsored the trip, but the trailer they used to haul their gear was a troop trailer and the two adult church youth leaders who went with them are also scout leaders. Their assistant soccer coach was also asked to go, but I declined because I was going on another Boundary Water trip a few weeks later. When they go play Lazer tag, are they going as a scout group, church youth group, soccer team or just close friends? Does this subject kind of hint at the helicopter parents culture thing we keep talking about. Im sure that National just doesnt make this stuff up. Someone must be hovering somewhere. Barry

This discussion comes up now and then and I always have the same reaction: Scouting is a great until the adults get involved. Barry

Just make sure the scouts get what the asked for. Barry

>>My point is - there's a BIG difference between surfing for hard core porn on an iPhone, a scout showing up at camp with a Playboy / Maxim magazine,

Yes, those are great approaches national eventually need to take. But before that, we need to understand the source of 17% numbers. When I was involved with the numbers side while volunteering at the council level, I found that nobody really had a grasp of the real numbers because there wasn't an accepted uniform method of acquiring good data. Add to the fact that a lot of Councils and Districts were double counting some of their scouts to inflate their numbers. I dont know how big that problem was, but the clean up of that mess could be part of the 17%. Also, when I got away from that side of the program five years ago, the Tigers program was taking a huge hit. I had also heard that Bears and Webelos I were loosing more scouts than ever before. Now that was third hand information, but it seemed to have folks concerned. My point is: are the problems mainly at the Cub level, or all over the board? Does the 17% include those double dipping problems? Are the numbers total numbers or are the calculated based from an average of losses? Are the problems a result of an image problem or an internal logistic problem? Once we figure that out, then we learn what and where the problems are. Then we can attack the problem with professional polling and surveys for those areas of scouting. Not an easy task. Barry

>>3) In my short time in the cubbie world, it has become apparent that a couple things tend to pull Web-II away from scouting. First, Jr. High is when boys get REALLY serious about sports or other school activities. Second, Webelos is a limbo rank IMHO. They are not old enough to do many of the higher adventure BSA things, but they are old enough to think the games / crafts done by the Tigers and Wolves are completely lame and boring....

>>I know that at least was part of the reason that JCPenney Co. quit selling scout stuff;they got threats from certain groups about boycotts and negative publicity.

I would like to know what the scouts say? How do you know what to fix if you don't know what is broken. Sometimes it has nothing to do with scouting, it's just boys acting badly. Barry

Officially (FAA), sailplanes are their own class. And looking at the intent of the text, Im not sure how it falls. I imagine the restrictions are based from risk. Sailplanes are not considered a risky aircraft to fly, but it has its limits not having an engine. Interesting. Barry

""Back in 2000 I was in Philmont on top of Baldy. A t-storm was rolling in and I (ASM) announced I was seeking cover and all the boys that felt it necessary were to follow me down to the tree line. About half the boys did. The SM and 2 other ASM's blew me off and laughed."" >>>Gotta love these distorted observations by those who don't comprehend the point. First of all the crew members that are not allowed to participate are those that have not acquired the necessary skills to do the job safely. It has nothing to do with "badly trained". On the contrary, the high standard of training is what is keeping the boys from risk.

>>Cancelin' events because of possible snow and ice on da roads? Southerners should really learn how to drive, eh?

>>"A storm front is moving in. We are well equipped for the weather but there is a 70% chance of an ice storm. The roads may become skating rinks and dangerous. We are scheduled to pack up and leave tomorrow morning. Do we leave early to avoid potential (but not certain) dangerous driving conditions tomorrow morning or stick it out?"

>>The purpose of adult leaders is to mentor and assist where needed, not run their own camping trip and let the boys flounder continually, although occasional floundering can be it's own learning experience too

Hi Sandspur I'm not sure of Stoshes point other than giving an example of a worse case scenerio of a badly trained crew. In reality I think these kinds of situations and examples like Stoshes are rare. I can only think of one situation in my many years of scouting where I had to use my SM title to force a direction and that only had to do with transportation to camp. These things are rare because most folks are reasonable. Still, you can leave it to a group, somebody has to take responsibility. Usually the somebody has enough experience and understanding of the folks involved to have a good idea of the troops limitations. I think you want a decision by consensus, and while I think good leaders listen to all the concerns, the person taking responsibility still has to make a decision. I found that consensus decisions typically only delay actions until somebody does finally stands up to take the responsibility. And the more folks included in the discussion, the worse it gets. I learned to keep such discussion limited to three or four of the most trusted. But let me just say, most of us in this position do not take the responsibility lightly. My wife will tell you that the stress of responsibility aged me while I was SM. She use to say that she knew when we were close to leaving for summer camp or a high adventure wilderness trek because I was very cranky. Most of us are just as concerned for your son as we are for our own. Interesting discussion because it raises concerns in situation that I think are very rare. The BSA does a pretty good job in guiding the troop in the risk of different activities. Barry