Eagledad

I tried to do them as soon as possible. I did them before, after and during meetings. I once did one at a soccer practice for a scout who was leaving town for a couple weeks. I did a couple while hiking in Philmont and did an Eagle SM Conference while walking during a 12 hour overnight Walk To Man Kind Cancer fund raiser. Ive done them in the Scouts house and in mine. Done a few in cars and once did one over the phone for a scout who wasnt even in my Troop. For me however, just having the opportunity to just sit and talk with a scout could sometimes be a SM Conference. A long drive to a camp can lead to many interesting discussions. The CC once told me that the scout for which they had just completed a BOR couldnt really point out the specific SM Conference for his rank because we always talked. I guess you can set specific times and locations, but you may risk missing out on some great conferences. Great memories. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

Hi Brent Well, here is how we did it and it worked fine. We told the existing patrols that we were starting a NSP and they would be merged into the existing patrols after summer camp or about 6 months. Since we got so many new scouts, we needed a new patrol. This is a great opportunity for a scout of any age to start a new patrol. The only request we put on them is that they build a balanced patrol, meaning spread the ages. That wont be a huge problem for you since your guys are about the same age. Our Troop grew from 12 to 90 in about six years, so we use that method several times and I don't recall any real problems. It doesnt disrupt the existing patrols much and it gives a scout looking for change an opportunity. But let me say my concern here is that want to do this as soon as the new scouts join. I written before that patrol dynamics can be disrupted significantly when more than two new scouts are added to a patrol. The reason is because the new scouts are so undisciplined and have so little experience in a troop program, they require a lot of attention. If you go with your plan, you will be creating three brand new patrols instead of just the one NSP that will need a lot of attention. That makes it very hard to be boy run. By keeping them in a new Scout patrol for a few months getting them up to speed, you reduce the risk of a few months of frustration for the majority of the scouts. I think you would be better off electing the SPL and recruiting two Troop Guides to work with the new scouts for the next few months. Then merge the new scouts into the patrols in about six months before the next elections. That way the two existing patrols don't feel like they are starting all over as new patrols. They feel like they still have control over the situation. What ever you do, it is a good problem getting that many new scouts. Good Job. Barry

>>A Scout handbook is the Scout's record and is by no means official! The BOR signs off on the advancement form. That is official.

I'm trying to fugure out how a Scout could get a BOR without his book in our troop since the board uses the book to as some of the question about his experience. If he doesn't bring the book, how does the BOR sign off in the book? Also, if the idea of the BOR is to verify that the scout has completed everything, how do they do they do that without a book? Oh I guess some adult could have keep track on the side, but how do we know that imformation is correct. Required or not, seems like you got to have a book to do the BOR correctly. Barry

We had a 17 year old Scout, whose family transferred from Colorado, join our troop. He was a great kid and a fine scout and he was only one MB away from Eagle. When he finished the MB, he brought all his stuff and handed to me and asked me to tell him when to be at the EBOR. I told him that was his responsibility and he was actually supposed to tell me the date and time of his EBOR. I then gave him the number to the District EBOR Chairman. I could tell he was frustrated and a week later he showed up with his dad. His dad very politely expressed that they didnt know what to do. The troop in Colorado did everything from keeping all the MB Cards, the scouts books, found and assigned Eagle Projects, filled out the Eagle packet and set up the EBOR. I explained to dad that our scouts keep all their paperwork and book records and they have to complete the Eagle packet and set up the EBORs. We also keep records on the computers, but that is not how the scouts present their records. That was one of the ways we encourage responsibility and self reliance. We will advise of course if we are asked, but the scouts do the foot work. His dad thanked me and they got it done. He later admitted that it was kind of hard finishing up the Eagle Packet, but there was a lot of satisfaction in it. At some point we have to start treating boys like men, I think requiring the scout to keep his records and book up to date is a good start. I was lost at why the Colorado troop took away the Scouts books. Besides keeping records, those books are more importantly their skills hand books for survival. We encouraged our scouts to always have their books nearby just for that reason. If they forget a skill, they only need to grab their book to refresh their memory. They learned quickly not to ask any question without first checking their book. Thats why even the uniform policy should be fairly clear. Again its also more practice in self reliance. Scouts do loose books, I know because I had a dozen at my house when I retired as a SM. But they always figure out their records. Typically they only loose the book once. I think being asked to recite the Scout Law and Oath now and then just reminds the scout how much he reflects on them. I also think if the scouts typically struggle with reciting them, then the adults arent encouraging enough reflection of the law and oath. The Law and Oath should be standards the scouts are trying meet. What are the adults standards if they arent using the law and oath? Oh, that Eagle I talked about, he was given a medal from our city for resuscitating the life of baby who drowned in a swimming pool. I'm honored to have been his SM just for a few short months. Good Discussion. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

We are also thinking of getting out of the 401K. We cancelled our 30th anniversary trip to Hawaii. We are not going to buy a new car as planned. I know of several small businessfolks who are not going to do any hiring. Barry

Only liberals use the word utopia. Conservative use the words like personal freedom. Barry

The way the time problem worked its way out for us was making sure the meeting program is full. If they start late, the end late. Parents don't like waiting very long and they let their sons know. They in turn complain to the PL who brings up the subject at PLC. Just like in real life outside the troop, folks want to be on time. Make sure you ask the SPL why they started late and what he could do to change that. He should be asking the very same questions at the Post PLC meeting. Oh, and when the Post meeting gets late, that has even more affect. My SPL starting taking pride in starting on time. As for uniforms, that is more difficult because boys don't buy into adult excusses like wearing a uniform gives you more pride or makes you a better boy scout. A boy needs to feel in his heart the uniform has value. At your next PLC meeting, read the uniform requirements from the Scout Handbook. Then ask the questions like, if a scout doesn't wear his uniform, is he doing right or doing wrong. Is it OK to do some things wrong and other things right? Who gets to pick what guidelines we get to break? What happens when everyone wants to do things their own way? You know, stuff like that. The important thing here is the scouts have to want to wear the uniform, not feel forced. By the way, I alway use the uniform as a flag that something is wrong when a scout changes a habit. Strangely, I found that 9 out of 10 times when I asked a scout if something was wrong or if they had a bad day, they did. You will always struggle with the uniform in a troop where the boys aren't forced by the adults because they have different attitudes about it at different stages. New scouts and older scouts don't have much problem. 13 to 15 year old boys are trying to find themselves. A good PLC can maintain a more consistant policy Barry

>>In the previous generation of Wood Badge, one of the things that we learned was that whenever there is any change in the membership of a group -- gain one or lose one -- it's a new group.

>>But that's where the debate begins.

>>What is the researcher spending the money on? Is he just shredding the money and burning it in a beaker?

>>Whether the spending is on a bridge or a trail, or research, its meant to stimulate the economy.

Well Done Barry

Get everyone ready Onehour, that is an overwhelming number. I learned to pull in all the parents as well as scouts and prepare them for the challenge. It is a good challenge but you need to ask for their patience as you guys are going to have to do a lot of changes to make it work, at least for a few months. As you get your feet under you again, then you can get back to normal. But if you, the adults and especially the scouts aren't ready the first meeting, everyone will wonder if it is all worth it. We got 33 new scouts our first year and lost half of them by summer camp because we we learning as we went. We got 35 new scouts the next year and kept 75 percent of them and we kept 95 percent jsut about every year after that. We made a lot of mistakes, but learned quickly and changed. Have the appearence of a plan for the new guys so that when they walk in, you and the SPL can Knowingly guide them to their spot where they are met with open arms from the other scouts. Don't let new guys mingle by themselves very long. That is when your PLC will start to loose control. Its going to be loud and kind of crazy. The old scouts need to show patience and kindness. It will feel better after the third meeting. When the parents have questions, be attentive, and understanding. Also be up front, "this is new for us too, but we will get there". Its a good problem, you just need to get ready. At least you have 50 scouts to help. We only had 12 our first time. Shesh. Good luck and we are here if you have any questions. Barry

I was talking to a dad who had four sons in our troop. His first son actually started with a different troop and he quit after the first campout. The dad told me that the troop separated the new scouts from the rest of the troop. They were put on a first class first year program and had to camp in a different area and do a different program. The troop was also sending the new scouts to a different summer camp than the rest of the scouts. His son had had enough of feeling like a Webelos, so he quit after the first campout and joined our troop. I think that was an extreme case, but I do find that most troops kind of separate the new scouts from the rest of the group for a while at least, and that is not what those guys saw when the visited as Webelos. Our troop is mixed age and if we can, we throw them in the existing patrols from the beginning. That makes it a little harder to become very cliquie. Oh it takes a little time for everyone to get use to the new guys and visa versa, but in general they are accepted as equals in the patrols. It is a struggle at the begining because any experienced leader (boy or adult) will tell you the most undisciplined scouts in the troop are the new guys. But patience and consistent positive attitudes are virtues you want the boys to develop, and adults too for that matter. Remember, the new guys are going through a major shock. This for most of them is the first time they are ask to trust boys for guidance and reliance on themselves. They are being pushed to put their lives in the hands of boys. For most of the new guys, it was likely that the parent carried their gear to the trailer on the first campout. They need just a little bit of hand holding the first couple of months just so they dont feel too lost. A good group of older scouts makes a world of difference. And let me just say, the older the scout, the better. This will come off wrong to some here, but looking back on our troop as it matured from 12 Webelos starting the troop to 90 scouts with 40 percent of them 14 and older, I never saw a good Troop Guide that was 14 or younger, and I NEVER saw a Bad Troop Guide that was 15 or older. Puberty makes a huge difference in the motivation to serve others. For those of you who aren't there yet, you have a lot to look forward to. The other thing you can just about count on is if you still have your new scouts after six months, you will likely have them for at least three years. Summer camp is the last chance for helping the new guys not feel like the new guys anymore. First class program is OK I guess, but boys join scouts for adventure. Give them adventure with the rest of the troop. Don't let them feel like outsiders looking in. In our troop, the members of the band of brothers (patrols) are of different ages and experiences. They are use to the oldest guys running the troop and eventually moving on and the newest guys joining up and needing to learn skills. It happens every year where as the same age patrols rarely see it. They become a clique by default. Good luck and help your son fix the problem. Help him to see those new scouts in his place three years from now and ask him how the troop can get them there. Then support his ideas. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>While I disagree with some of his gender-based assumptions,

We have use Seagull Outfitters several times for the last ten years. They are located at the end of the Gun Flint trail. We like them because they have good equipment and a nice bunkhouse on their site. http://www.seagulloutfitters.com/ Barry

>>I think having a permanent WebII DL would solve a lot of problems.

>>If the kids are burnt out by the time they get to boy scouts, then the Webelos need to rethink thier programs.

>>I must say though, every year I try to get more from my Pack involved, and every year it is my Tigers who are out there working on their own.

>>Obviously the adults are convincing themselves that they are having the kids lead when in fact they are setting the agenda and eventually the boys figure it out. This is following, not leading.

I agree with Lisa that we should be more focused on doing a good turn daily. Our troop did spend some time on the subject now and then. I have several SM Minutes to that subject, but honestly, we were pretty good at helping the community. I'm sure we could have done better, but the got a lot of practice. I taught our PLC that the scout goals are the Eight Methods and the adult goals are the Three Aims. I asked the PLC to make sure that all the scouts have opportunities to practiced citizenship, character and fitness on every campout. That usually included summer camp and high adventure as well. At first that scared them a little until they realize that most of what they do on campouts is practicing fitness and character, it was just the citizenship that required a little planning. But even that turned out to be pretty easy because the areas we camped usually needed some kind of maintenance that required the muscle of all the scouts. I was always trying to find fun ways to get the scouts to think in the ideals of scouting. I always had a pocket full of Fireballs candy to reward any good turn I saw from the scouts. At first it was kind of a joke that the scouts would purposely act out some good turn to get candy. But once the joke part wore off, they started taking them as badges of honor, I think because they found that selfless acts made them feel good about themselves. I also always put out a whole box of Tootsie Pop suckers in the camps for anyone to take. They could have as many as they wanted provided I or the SPL never found a wrapper and they never took more than one at a time. If we saw the rules were broken, the box was taken away for the rest of the day. That only happened a few times before they caught on. I remember one scout on the PLC commenting how those suckers reinforced the idea of character when nobody was looking. Our council quit doing the Scouting For Food Drive because a private group took it over for all of Oklahoma City, which included all the businesses and any other organization who wanted to participate in the food drive. It turned political, so the Council bailed out and we were all grateful because it was a mess. When we did do it, I had a hard time with it because the Council kept trying to make it more efficient. They wanted more food for less work because the adults keep complaining how much time it took because it required two weekends. The first weekend to deliver food bags, the second to pick them up. So to help reduce the complaints, they ask the units to deliver the sacks at the door without knocking. The sack had instructions for the house owner to leave the sack on the porch the next Saturday. I didnt like that because I wanted our scouts to meet the community and visa-versa. And I couldnt see how it really helped the adults anyway. I used to joke with the District Committee that the Troops had it down to a Mafeking type of activity of hiding in the bushes until the owners went inside the house and then they jumped up, dropped off the sack and ran to the next house. I solve the two weekend problem by skipping the first weekend, than have the scouts carry the food bag with them to each house, knock on the door, introduce themselves and why they were there and ask for the food. We found out the scouts really enjoyed meeting the folks, especially the Cubs. They seem to have a great adventure story for every house and you would be surprised how many adults wanted to tell their experiences as a scout. IT turned out to be great public relations for the scouts and it was something the scouts look forward to every year. Well we had been doing it that way for about five years when I joined the District committee and I proposed the same idea to the District. I also explained that our community needed to meet our scouts and this was the best opportunity for doing that. They werent sure how the units would like it, but they tried it. It turned out to be a huge success because the units liked it and it tripled the collection of food. So our District commissioner and DE asked me to propose the idea to Council. They also decided to try it the next year, but that was the year they had the falling out with the city and it was never tried. As for keeping a log, I know our scouts did that because we taught them to do all their own paperwork, but our troop did so many community projects, it just was never a big topic of discussion. If the scout was active at all in the troop, they had the hours. Good subject, Lisabob. Barry

>>Train: we train Provide opportunities: We provide opportunities Give them room to lead: OK we do that Still, the patrol method is just not biting into the road.

We've had patrols of 6 to 12 scouts depending on their stage of recruiting and loosing scouts for many years. We've had just two or three scouts Patrols on a campout many times and they do fine with food. I don't remember the causes, but we've had a patrol of one a couple times and those scout not only did fine, they did great. Your parents just dont understand how important team building is for a patrol. Team building takes time (months) to build a pride of brotherhood and trust. Even if it is just two scouts, they are holding the patrol pride together everytime the troop is assembled. They still give the same patrol yell and hold up the same patrol flag. What ever it is that makes their patrol different from the others, they represent that difference and maintain it for all the other scouts. That pride is required for scouts to start respecting leadership. The excuses you are hearing are parents concerned with the comfort of sons based on the comfort of themselves. But boys can handle a lot and they like handing a lot with pride. I was a little worried about the patrol of one, but he not only did OK, he was excited to prove that he could do it. Life is an adventure and the troop is a great place to have that adventure because it is a safe place. If the scout was truly in danger, every scout and adult in the troop would jump in to help. Of course you know me, if a patrol forgot to bring its food, they have to figure out what to do. The adults don't give any advice, we just stand by to hear what they are going to do. AND WE HAVE NEVER HAD A SCOUT GO HOME HUNGRY. They work it out. The other patrols help them out. And they learn well from the experience. My older sons patrol brought food but forgot cooking utensils. So they cooked on the fire. They enjoyed that experience so much that the continued cooking on fires for most campouts after that. My son even taught all his New Scouts how to cook on a fire when he was the Troop Guide. The boys can handle it because it is fun, its the parents who are weak and need some encouragement. They are taking away a lot of fun and adventure of your troop. If is important for them to experience their independence of letting their son having independence. Just when are they going to start to learn their son handle adversity, out when they get in the real world? The troop is the best place for a scout to experience adversity because it is safe and controlled. And, they have mentors who can guide them as they learn from their experiences. Now is the best and safest time to let these guys experience struggles of life. A patrol of two in nothing for the boys. The adults need to develop the confidence to allow the scouts to learn from it. We all have to do it because we are all parents. But we have to do it. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>> Having a Star Ranked PL of the NSP take the boys to Philmont is kinda dumb.>the Star-ranked PL of the NSP could turn the PL reins over to another scout and he would continue on as TG for the NSP, training the new PL and be eligible for the Philmont contingent> Maybe when the Star-ranked TG returns from Philmont he'll be able to return to the patrol and work at getting all his NSP buddies up to first class so that in a year or two they too can go.