Eagledad

>>Why don't we stop debating if NSPs work or not and just deliver the program we promised to deliver?

Well I just read this subject and I think I'm the guilty party. Hard to tell since that discussion was a few days ago. Still, my apologies to skpetic and all for the tone of my post. I will try and do better. I do think tones and attitudes have changed on how folks carry discussions on forums. Part of it is I kind of feel like we are bit of family, so forgetting many folks may be reading on the forum for the first time, we develop bad habits. I also find that I'm trying to write 10 minutes worth of a response in two minutes because I in the middle of something else and I don't take the time to reread what I've written. So I will try an slow down and consider the impact of the tone as well as the intent. Have a great day all. Barry

>>Even with that, however, we would still be realigning the patrols by about 40% after 6 months, so in a way, it is only delaying the inevitable. It suggests a now or later scenario.

This is a tough spot. You know I am a big proponent of mixed age patrols and not fond of NSPs. But experience has proven that existing patrols more than two to three new scouts tend to loose the cohesion that has been developed in the patrol. So this is a situation where I would consider a NSP. But you already mention that is not a very good option this year. Here is the thing, the BSA looses more boys in their first six month of a troop experience than any other time and any other age group. The reason is the scouts loose the trust that the boys near their age can safely lead them in scouting activities. Or, their experience is so regimented by adults that they arent having any fun. You will know within a few weeks after summer camp whether you will keep those scouts. Also keep in mind that when a troop gains sudden surge of new boys that is about 40% or above the troop size, the troop program is basically starting over, especially if you dont prepare everyone for the changes that a coming. It is very very important that the troop adults convey they understand the challenge to the new parents and are working hard with the PLC to ease the transition for ALL the scouts. Even the most experienced scouts will struggle because the new scouts are undisciplined and out of control. Its as hard for them if not harder than for the adults. The dilemma for troops is keeping the adults close enough so the new scouts still feel some security of safety while at the same time keeping them far enough away that the scouts can develop their own independence and freedom to enjoy scouting. I found that if a scout wants to stay even after the first six months, you have a lot better chance of making changes without loosing them. This is why we move the new scouts out of a NSP into existing patrol around six months if we used a NSP that year. I dont have the perfect answer for your situation yet, but I think you need to preplan how your adults and your scouts that they have to will work together to make sure the new scouts are comfortable with the program. I found that the new scouts boy leaders should always be the point of contact for the new scouts. If for what ever reason the observing adults feel something needs to be conveyed to a new scout, the adult goes through the boy leader so that the new scouts observe that adults trust the boy leader. The adults need to keep their distance. Close enough so the new scouts can find an adult if they have to, but far enough away that their experience is pretty much boy run. As the new scouts get more comfortable, the adults should get farther away to even just disappearing for awhile. It wont take that long if everyone is working together. What you are doing here is weaning the new scouts away from their idea that the adults are responsible for their experience even though they call it boy run. They need time to develop confidence in their boy leaders and even the program itself. Our Troop kind of works the same way as Stoshs, but Im different in that I would not add new patrols least six months after receiving new scouts unless your new scouts only make up about 10 to 15% max of the troop total. Im not in favor of killing patrols at all. Since you have a relatively small troop, I think it is fair to prepare all the scout and adults to working as a team to welcome the new scouts and work to get them up to speed in the troop program. I know that isnt a simple answer, but it is a complicated challenge. A good challenge however. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>To be honest, most kids will somewhat instintually know EDGE, even if they never heard of it. Why? Because the same concept, usually labeled "scaffolding", has been standard in the education field for forty bazillion years.

>>Not to hijack the thread......but mentioning longer school day.....who would be willing to work four 10 hour days in return for a three day weekend? I would.

>>The best change that I like is that rank advancement sign offs are just in one place

>>The pack is still functional, but the bars have a tendancy to start to pop out.

>>Until a uniform is required to be a member, requiring a uniform for any BOR is adding to the requirements.

>>(I turn 55 tomorrow and find myself thinking a LOT about mortality and how best to spend whatever remaining days I have left).

>>When I think of the Troop I serve, I don't look at 40 odd heterosexuals with a possible 4 homosexuals. They are all scouts. If any of them were to be "caught" in sexual activity either homo or hetero on a camp out, the result would be the same

These things do go in cycles because of changes in staff and learning from experience. Our EBOR is really good and doesn't have the problems discussed here, but I've seen scouts leave our Eagle Project Review Board crying. It only takes a few comments from Scoutmasters for the district to make changes, but I know of one District in our council that takes comments from Scoutmasters as a sign they are doing it right. But, one thing I've noticed across the districts is that most adults in these positions don't have a full understanding of the rules and proceedures as they should. Many got there because that spot needed to be filled with a warm body. This is one area that Council training could help in solving problems. Barry

I also had that Come to Momma meeting and knew if I didnt change a few things, our family scouting expereince wasnt going to be pleasant. Even my kids didnt want to hear scouting come out of my mouth 24 hours day. They set up rules that I wasnt allowed to talk ANY scouting at the dinner table. I was only allowed one hour on the phone per night. I turned down all training staff positions with a promise that I would get involved after I gave up the SM gig as well as being OA representative for our district. I only skipped one campout a year, but I had to pick either Summer Camp or High Adventure every summer. I had to make sure I left a week every summer for our family vacation. That was harder than it sounds for a SM with an active outdoor program. Once I set these rules for myself, Tamara was supportive and we are still married. Watch out with the promises, the week I handed my SM hat over to the other guy, I had a dozen calls to volunteer for staffs and chairmanships. I think I was more busy then than when I was as a SM, but I spent less time on the phone. Barry

>>Yeah, I've been wondering what all the Glen Beck fans think of Beck's statement that McCain would have been a worse President than Obama.

>>We really tried to work with him but his mental health issues were beyond what we could handle. I am upset for him but you have to think about the safety of the rest of the troop.

>>I would ask him to explain to me his understanding of the term Nazi / Fascist / Communist / Socialist. If I found out he is just an idiot who is disrupting Troop meetings with his idiocy, he would no longer be welcome in my Troop.

Camp chairs, the kind with no legs. Because the typical ground in camp is dirt, mud or rocks, that item was missed the most by those who didnt take one. I agree with using waterproof cameras cases or waterproof disposable cameras. You only have about 3 seconds for the really good moose, bear, eagle and other critter shots. Did someone mention bicycle gloves to prevent blisters? The one thing I really liked about Northern Tier over a backpacking trek is taking baths in the lake. I generally took a bath and washed my clothes every other day. Very refreshing in many ways. Barry

Good advice from the others. Good advice from the others. We send a lot of crews to Philmont and found it is inevitable that you will loose scouts and adults because things happen in that length of time, so we recruit alternates as well or a full crew of 14 knowing that not all 14 will get there. We try to get at least 20% of boys and adults alternates and just about every case they got to go. We require they give a deposit like everyone else to show good faith and attend all the training and shake-down outings. If you have to go to other troops to make the numbers, thats OK. Ask the boys to do the recruiting so they get their friends. Do it early enough and everyone bonds before the trip. As for the adults side, 18 year olds count as adults. I like to recruit a couple 18 year olds if I can to go along with a couple of adults 21 and older. The 18 year olds get along well with the youth and still have a lot of fun with adult privileges. The best crew I ever sent the Philmont was our experienced 16 year old crew with two dads who had never backpacked before. The two dads were in the 50s and were the only two adults, but the boys took very good care of them and everyone came back bragging about that wonderful experience. So search out dads who might not likely volunteer and put them with an experienced group of scouts. You have to recruit them early enough to get them trained and comfortable with backpacking. Barry

>>1) The Chair and the Scoutmaster are not cross-talking well-enough about left and right limits. IMO, the Chair does not have the Scoutmaster's back! 2) The Chair, representing the support side, then needs to go to the SPL and PLC and explain the NO answer so the youth can learn. Trust me, the youth will have some tough questions. The Chair needs to be prepared to defend the decision

>>Now, if the SM and CC don't have each others back, there are bigger fish to fry than youth scheduling, and those bigger fish aren't very tasty

>>I know we have discussed it before, but I still want to find ways to empower these scouts to make their own decisions and give them a real sense of ownership in the troop.

>>As for the Scouts in SMT224's Troop, I don't know. They didn't learn that when you make a mistake, you should admit it and try to make things right. They didn't learn that when someone is gracious to you, you should find some way to thank them. I'm afraid they learned that a hard-nosed, stiff-necked attitude will get you what you want, even if it isn't rightfully yours.

Character isn't how one contends with the expected; character is how one contends with the unexpected. I would say your scouts just witnessed great character from the troop's adults. They will take that lesson with them forever. Barry

I would do some research on the subject first. Bullying is a power thing typically at "weaker" victims who can't fight back. I'm told by those who know that it is more common with kids who are bullied in their own life, usually parents of family. That certainly was the case in the few instances I witnessed. How do you change someone who lives in that environment everyday. I've also seen a different kind of bully in a troop program who were not known bullies at school. Those bullies where influenced by adult leaders (parents) in the troop who didn't like certain boys and were very expressive about it at home. We eventually asked one such leader to leave are troop. I can go on and on about how Scouting is an ideal program in the long term for anti-bullying because it is a servant program, but it is not the quick solution you are looking for. In fact I've read where school's approaches to fixing the problem is failing mainly because they are trying to use quick solutions like lectures and words. Again, you can research it to find out. I agree with Lisabob about the schools, at least from my experience with schools in our area, good luck. Barry

I have a lot of good stories of the advantages of wearing a uniform while traveling, but it is also the only adult forced rule while I was the SM. Not that it had to be, most of the boys agreed. We created the rule when I once stopped at a rest stop. They were my scouts, but I saw a very nervous store clerk watch 25 church kids running around in out of the store grabbing snacks and so on. I jokenly said something about it to the clerk and he said the hardest part is not knowing which adults belong to those kids. I realized that store clerks are a lot less nervous when they can identify the adults responsible because they are dressed the same as the kids. And they can identify if the kids belong in the same group. It just being courteous. Barry