Eagledad

>>Notice how the word patrol can be completely omitted from the discussion? Notice how the leadership responsibilities of a big trip are shifted off the boys and onto the adults? >"Our troop creates a temporary crew or patrol for each special activity like going to Philmont, Canada or snow skiing." This happens when patrols don't organize their own independent activities. This is how troop-method units operate. The patrols are broken up for convenience sake.

>>As long as there are standards and/or requirements, someone must be charged with maintaining them. In Scouting, it's the Scoutmaster.

Stosh, you lost me. Other than that you guys restrict patrol size, the rest of you post doesnt seem to address the subject. Im glad your SPL said no to paintball, but isnt that what he is supposed to do? BrentAllen, I was the Scoutmaster of a troop of 90 scouts. About 40 percent of the troop was 14 and older and we average about three high adventure trips a years. We also take the Troop of 40 to 60 scouts on many campouts that require several smaller groups to function. But that is easy for a troop because its made of patrols. Size just never came up as an issue for outdoor activities. So I dont quite understand your concern. Our troop creates a temporary crew or patrol for each special activity like going to Philmont, Canada or snow skiing. Those patrols meet outside their normal patrol and troop meetings to organize and prepare for their trip. Maybe that is what you mean by special outings. How would that take away from the scouting program? Each patrol still requires a leading, planning and team work. We have been doing temporary special activity patrols for years and they only enhance your program, not take away from it. Im glad you are looking a head and trying to prevent problems, but you are almost creating problems here. As long as you maintain healthy permanent patrols, temporary patrols will only add more quality to your program. Sounds like your program is doing well. Barry

>>A gate keeper implies failure and I suppose it depends on what you mean by failure

>> Our patrols are limited to 8 boys max. There are very few instances where a limit is placed lower than that. Troop-method scouting will always have problems with size limits, patrol-method won't.

Great story, thanks. I found the struggle for me was finding an approach that worked for each individual scout. Each of us is inspired differently, which is why I think scoutmasters have to be creative to do a good job. And its kind of funny, I heard more than once a good Scoutmasters talk about himself as the bad cop in a good-cop bad-cop scenario. I think it is a very humble statement. Good job MattR I love this scouting stuff. Barry

First off, that sounds like a really cool Camporee. I wish we lived closer. I can't remember what they call it, but the rule is to have a least three people. At least two adults or two scouts. I think this will count as an activity and not an outing. A solution is have two adults walk around together to check on the events. Hang around for a couple minutes then walk to the next. That way the scouts are doing the boy run thing without adult supervision and the adults are doing their check, but not staying long enough to take away the boy run expereince. Everyone gets what they want and no rules are broken. Barry

>>Sort of a chicken/egg situation, depending on whose perspective you start from.

>>With the wisdom of hindsight: I would have separated into two hiking groups. My first choice would be one with just youths hiking and one with just adult hiking. Then pick points on the trail for rendezvous (at the ravine, a trail intersection, campsite). If that ratio didn't work (because the parents cried foul) pick one or two of the faster and quieter adults to go with the youths.

>>A Scoutmaster should have known long before that point that the Scout had some areas in which to improve.

>>Scout Spirit requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review are designed to keep a Boy Scout Troop adult-run. They are a flat rejection of Baden-Powell.

While I hold the highest respect for Lisabob in scouting matters, I kind of feel this situation is one step past that point of her advice. I would suggest SeaGull99 read her sons scout handbook on the requirements for the Star rank. Then I suggest she call the CC to set up a meeting over coffee (at her home if you wish) with both the CC and the SM to discuss the situation. Don't wait for a yes or no, but instead give them the choice of two times to choose from. When you meet, in a very kind voice just go strait into it and read the requirements out of the book. Then in a kind voice, ask for the SM's explination of how her son is not yet qualified for the rank. You have to make this meeting as non confrontation as possible, but at some point there needs to be the understanding among everyone there that the SM is adding requirements that are not in the book. You will get a better idea of how to move forward after that meeting. Barry

Thanks for your thoughts Beav, we are ok. The tornado took and interesting path that went 1 mile west of my mother, a half mile north of my sister, 2 miles west or my house and just a couple blocks from my mother in-law. In fact the picture on the front page of the Daily Oklahoman news paper this morning, showing all the downed power lines as far as you can see, is by my mother in-laws neighborhood. I drove through the storm last night to bring my mother in law to our home until she got power back. By the looks of the damage, I thought she would be staying with us at least a couple days, but as she was packing her clothes, low and behold the power came back on. The linesmen in Oklahoma are amazing. Between our Spring storms and our winter ice storms, I guess they get a lot of practice. For you golfers, the tornado cut a large swath through the Oak Tree Golf county club golf course, which you see from time to time on the PGA tour. A few houses there were leveled and I think Bob Tways (golf pro) house is one of them. Amazingly, nobody was killed. Our town is now cut in half with from the damage and down power lines, so it make take some time to clean up. But for the size tornado that went through, we have been very blessed with no deaths and just minor enjuries. The folks in southern Oklahoma werent so lucky. Several deaths and it was near our Council camp, Slippery Falls. We may have lots of work this spring getting ready for summer camp. Have a great day all. Barry

Yes, we went from 12 first year scouts to 40 total in one year as well. I agree that it is very challenging. Barry

I had 16 Webelos and divided them up into two groups. Made the meetings better because we would have to activities going on at each meeting and have the groups switch after 20 or 30 minutes. Keeps the boys busy. I would suggest two 1.5 hour meetings a month because it is really challenging to plan a meeting with 2 groups without feeling hurried. You can easily fill the hour and half. The one day off a month lets you recharge your batteries and do more planning. I had it easy selecting the two groups because my scouts came from two Bear Dens. But I would suggest that you first have them pick the friends they want to stay with, then go from there. But in truth, it doesnt matter because even though they are in two groups, the den was always doing activities together. So they never really felt detached. Its different from patrols, but kind gets them into the idea of patrols. Hope that helps. Barry

>>If the boys start out together (NSP) and stay together, then when they become 14 (presumably at roughly the same time), their patrol can become a venture patrol, and they maintain thier unity.

>>It would seem that after three years they really weren't interested in the program/advancement and were in it just to hang out.

Well looking at it in this context, I think I served the parents. I know I could care less about the CO. I use to tell parents that my job was to help better equipe their son for the day when he gets up in the morning to find his wife too sick to get out of bed, their babies crying to be fed, and his boss calling to find out why he wasn't at work. Barry

>>I think when the PLC gets ready for our next annual planning conference, I will suggest each PL ask each patrol member to think about what would be their best trip ever to go on, and suggest that. I don't think we've ever phrased the question in that manner. I look forward to seeing what they come up with.

>>Senior scouts that have to go to the same summer camp they have for 5 times earlier just because their numbers are unable to out-vote the troop will simply drop out of the program..

>>We all survived the evening without any DT's.

There are some minor risk involved that are being presented here, but if you know of some churches that want a troop and possibly expanding the scouting program, I would go for it. I been involved in few of these things and if the DE thinks it is a good idea, it is very likely the right thing to do. In my experiences, threatening to leave was a wake up call to the CO and they changed their attitude toward the scout units. BArry

Maybe I had some control about adult behavior, but I have personally only asked three adults to get out. Each case was a different circumstance, but I acted in each case because I felt the boys were in danger. For alcohol problems, I have asked two parents, one cub and one boy scout, to not volunteer for any unit activities. Both parents got professional help after. I did not suggest it. I know of one SM ask by council to leave scouting after he was caught offering a beer to a scout. That comes under stupid people tricks to me. But, as the District Membership Chairman, I suggested the Troop committee get rid of him for other types of behavior with other adults in his troop. It was silly to me that it took the beer thing to get rid of him. I would never ever even consider the idea that obesity be an issue to scouting. I'm still in shock that we even suggest it on this forum. As for cussing, I just plan did not allow it by anyone. I personally just find it offensive by anyone and I never really had any problems with it. Barry

I just had and interesting conversation with a couple of friends who are in business for themselves. They are not millionaires by any means, but do well when the oil business is doing well. They are also diversified in other things to ride through the slow oil times. I just saw them walking by at a local coffee shop and said hello. We talked about kids for a few minutes and then I asked a question really just in passing, when are you expecting the oil prices to change?. Boy, that got them going and I didnt get another word or opinion in the conversation because they just started talking and couldnt stop until they got a call that pulled them out. In short, they see the present political environment hostel toward the oil industry and they are looking to get out. They have shut down their operations because oil is cheap right now, but they dont see waiting until the price gets up again because they feel the government will go after them in taxes and restrictions. They have other businesses as well but are downsizing because they think the present stimulus plan only helps unions and isnt being applied in the areas where they could be of the most benefit. They are diversifying their assets in businesses where they dont have to hire a lot of people and can get out quickly if thing dont do well, real estate being one. These guys are very interesting to me because they have been in oil since 1970s surviving through the ups and downs. Now they are jumping out. I also talked to my dad this morning who called to ask me some questions about starting a new business. He is a very liberal democrate and only wears Obama T-shirts, but is frustrated with the current stimulus bill because it is scaring away anyone who might want to consider helping him start another business. He said there is some aid out there, but it is in the area of medicine and unions. He doesnt want to start up anything that large. We dont talk politics because we are so different in our opinions, but if the democrats are scaring their most liberal supporters, we might be in for some interesting times. What I am gathering is there is a real fear of socialism running over the county and small business folks are scared. My dad has always been in favor of socialism, but I dont think he saw it in the business industry, but more in health care and retirement. The one business group that seems to think it will work in their favor are the accountants. But even they are starting to be more regulated. I think what surprising me most is how fast Im seeing all this happen. Barry

>>There's nothing in the requirement that states that the POR has to be at troop level with scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, etc. It does specifically state for some POR's but not all.