Eagledad

>>Train: we train Provide opportunities: We provide opportunities Give them room to lead: OK we do that Still, the patrol method is just not biting into the road.

We've had patrols of 6 to 12 scouts depending on their stage of recruiting and loosing scouts for many years. We've had just two or three scouts Patrols on a campout many times and they do fine with food. I don't remember the causes, but we've had a patrol of one a couple times and those scout not only did fine, they did great. Your parents just dont understand how important team building is for a patrol. Team building takes time (months) to build a pride of brotherhood and trust. Even if it is just two scouts, they are holding the patrol pride together everytime the troop is assembled. They still give the same patrol yell and hold up the same patrol flag. What ever it is that makes their patrol different from the others, they represent that difference and maintain it for all the other scouts. That pride is required for scouts to start respecting leadership. The excuses you are hearing are parents concerned with the comfort of sons based on the comfort of themselves. But boys can handle a lot and they like handing a lot with pride. I was a little worried about the patrol of one, but he not only did OK, he was excited to prove that he could do it. Life is an adventure and the troop is a great place to have that adventure because it is a safe place. If the scout was truly in danger, every scout and adult in the troop would jump in to help. Of course you know me, if a patrol forgot to bring its food, they have to figure out what to do. The adults don't give any advice, we just stand by to hear what they are going to do. AND WE HAVE NEVER HAD A SCOUT GO HOME HUNGRY. They work it out. The other patrols help them out. And they learn well from the experience. My older sons patrol brought food but forgot cooking utensils. So they cooked on the fire. They enjoyed that experience so much that the continued cooking on fires for most campouts after that. My son even taught all his New Scouts how to cook on a fire when he was the Troop Guide. The boys can handle it because it is fun, its the parents who are weak and need some encouragement. They are taking away a lot of fun and adventure of your troop. If is important for them to experience their independence of letting their son having independence. Just when are they going to start to learn their son handle adversity, out when they get in the real world? The troop is the best place for a scout to experience adversity because it is safe and controlled. And, they have mentors who can guide them as they learn from their experiences. Now is the best and safest time to let these guys experience struggles of life. A patrol of two in nothing for the boys. The adults need to develop the confidence to allow the scouts to learn from it. We all have to do it because we are all parents. But we have to do it. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>> Having a Star Ranked PL of the NSP take the boys to Philmont is kinda dumb.>the Star-ranked PL of the NSP could turn the PL reins over to another scout and he would continue on as TG for the NSP, training the new PL and be eligible for the Philmont contingent> Maybe when the Star-ranked TG returns from Philmont he'll be able to return to the patrol and work at getting all his NSP buddies up to first class so that in a year or two they too can go.

>>Notice how the word patrol can be completely omitted from the discussion? Notice how the leadership responsibilities of a big trip are shifted off the boys and onto the adults? >"Our troop creates a temporary crew or patrol for each special activity like going to Philmont, Canada or snow skiing." This happens when patrols don't organize their own independent activities. This is how troop-method units operate. The patrols are broken up for convenience sake.

>>As long as there are standards and/or requirements, someone must be charged with maintaining them. In Scouting, it's the Scoutmaster.

Stosh, you lost me. Other than that you guys restrict patrol size, the rest of you post doesnt seem to address the subject. Im glad your SPL said no to paintball, but isnt that what he is supposed to do? BrentAllen, I was the Scoutmaster of a troop of 90 scouts. About 40 percent of the troop was 14 and older and we average about three high adventure trips a years. We also take the Troop of 40 to 60 scouts on many campouts that require several smaller groups to function. But that is easy for a troop because its made of patrols. Size just never came up as an issue for outdoor activities. So I dont quite understand your concern. Our troop creates a temporary crew or patrol for each special activity like going to Philmont, Canada or snow skiing. Those patrols meet outside their normal patrol and troop meetings to organize and prepare for their trip. Maybe that is what you mean by special outings. How would that take away from the scouting program? Each patrol still requires a leading, planning and team work. We have been doing temporary special activity patrols for years and they only enhance your program, not take away from it. Im glad you are looking a head and trying to prevent problems, but you are almost creating problems here. As long as you maintain healthy permanent patrols, temporary patrols will only add more quality to your program. Sounds like your program is doing well. Barry

>>A gate keeper implies failure and I suppose it depends on what you mean by failure

>> Our patrols are limited to 8 boys max. There are very few instances where a limit is placed lower than that. Troop-method scouting will always have problems with size limits, patrol-method won't.

Great story, thanks. I found the struggle for me was finding an approach that worked for each individual scout. Each of us is inspired differently, which is why I think scoutmasters have to be creative to do a good job. And its kind of funny, I heard more than once a good Scoutmasters talk about himself as the bad cop in a good-cop bad-cop scenario. I think it is a very humble statement. Good job MattR I love this scouting stuff. Barry

First off, that sounds like a really cool Camporee. I wish we lived closer. I can't remember what they call it, but the rule is to have a least three people. At least two adults or two scouts. I think this will count as an activity and not an outing. A solution is have two adults walk around together to check on the events. Hang around for a couple minutes then walk to the next. That way the scouts are doing the boy run thing without adult supervision and the adults are doing their check, but not staying long enough to take away the boy run expereince. Everyone gets what they want and no rules are broken. Barry

>>Sort of a chicken/egg situation, depending on whose perspective you start from.

>>With the wisdom of hindsight: I would have separated into two hiking groups. My first choice would be one with just youths hiking and one with just adult hiking. Then pick points on the trail for rendezvous (at the ravine, a trail intersection, campsite). If that ratio didn't work (because the parents cried foul) pick one or two of the faster and quieter adults to go with the youths.

>>A Scoutmaster should have known long before that point that the Scout had some areas in which to improve.

>>Scout Spirit requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review are designed to keep a Boy Scout Troop adult-run. They are a flat rejection of Baden-Powell.

While I hold the highest respect for Lisabob in scouting matters, I kind of feel this situation is one step past that point of her advice. I would suggest SeaGull99 read her sons scout handbook on the requirements for the Star rank. Then I suggest she call the CC to set up a meeting over coffee (at her home if you wish) with both the CC and the SM to discuss the situation. Don't wait for a yes or no, but instead give them the choice of two times to choose from. When you meet, in a very kind voice just go strait into it and read the requirements out of the book. Then in a kind voice, ask for the SM's explination of how her son is not yet qualified for the rank. You have to make this meeting as non confrontation as possible, but at some point there needs to be the understanding among everyone there that the SM is adding requirements that are not in the book. You will get a better idea of how to move forward after that meeting. Barry

Thanks for your thoughts Beav, we are ok. The tornado took and interesting path that went 1 mile west of my mother, a half mile north of my sister, 2 miles west or my house and just a couple blocks from my mother in-law. In fact the picture on the front page of the Daily Oklahoman news paper this morning, showing all the downed power lines as far as you can see, is by my mother in-laws neighborhood. I drove through the storm last night to bring my mother in law to our home until she got power back. By the looks of the damage, I thought she would be staying with us at least a couple days, but as she was packing her clothes, low and behold the power came back on. The linesmen in Oklahoma are amazing. Between our Spring storms and our winter ice storms, I guess they get a lot of practice. For you golfers, the tornado cut a large swath through the Oak Tree Golf county club golf course, which you see from time to time on the PGA tour. A few houses there were leveled and I think Bob Tways (golf pro) house is one of them. Amazingly, nobody was killed. Our town is now cut in half with from the damage and down power lines, so it make take some time to clean up. But for the size tornado that went through, we have been very blessed with no deaths and just minor enjuries. The folks in southern Oklahoma werent so lucky. Several deaths and it was near our Council camp, Slippery Falls. We may have lots of work this spring getting ready for summer camp. Have a great day all. Barry

Yes, we went from 12 first year scouts to 40 total in one year as well. I agree that it is very challenging. Barry

I had 16 Webelos and divided them up into two groups. Made the meetings better because we would have to activities going on at each meeting and have the groups switch after 20 or 30 minutes. Keeps the boys busy. I would suggest two 1.5 hour meetings a month because it is really challenging to plan a meeting with 2 groups without feeling hurried. You can easily fill the hour and half. The one day off a month lets you recharge your batteries and do more planning. I had it easy selecting the two groups because my scouts came from two Bear Dens. But I would suggest that you first have them pick the friends they want to stay with, then go from there. But in truth, it doesnt matter because even though they are in two groups, the den was always doing activities together. So they never really felt detached. Its different from patrols, but kind gets them into the idea of patrols. Hope that helps. Barry

>>If the boys start out together (NSP) and stay together, then when they become 14 (presumably at roughly the same time), their patrol can become a venture patrol, and they maintain thier unity.

>>It would seem that after three years they really weren't interested in the program/advancement and were in it just to hang out.

Well looking at it in this context, I think I served the parents. I know I could care less about the CO. I use to tell parents that my job was to help better equipe their son for the day when he gets up in the morning to find his wife too sick to get out of bed, their babies crying to be fed, and his boss calling to find out why he wasn't at work. Barry

>>I think when the PLC gets ready for our next annual planning conference, I will suggest each PL ask each patrol member to think about what would be their best trip ever to go on, and suggest that. I don't think we've ever phrased the question in that manner. I look forward to seeing what they come up with.

>>Senior scouts that have to go to the same summer camp they have for 5 times earlier just because their numbers are unable to out-vote the troop will simply drop out of the program..

>>We all survived the evening without any DT's.

There are some minor risk involved that are being presented here, but if you know of some churches that want a troop and possibly expanding the scouting program, I would go for it. I been involved in few of these things and if the DE thinks it is a good idea, it is very likely the right thing to do. In my experiences, threatening to leave was a wake up call to the CO and they changed their attitude toward the scout units. BArry