Eagledad

Character isn't how one contends with the expected; character is how one contends with the unexpected. I would say your scouts just witnessed great character from the troop's adults. They will take that lesson with them forever. Barry

I would do some research on the subject first. Bullying is a power thing typically at "weaker" victims who can't fight back. I'm told by those who know that it is more common with kids who are bullied in their own life, usually parents of family. That certainly was the case in the few instances I witnessed. How do you change someone who lives in that environment everyday. I've also seen a different kind of bully in a troop program who were not known bullies at school. Those bullies where influenced by adult leaders (parents) in the troop who didn't like certain boys and were very expressive about it at home. We eventually asked one such leader to leave are troop. I can go on and on about how Scouting is an ideal program in the long term for anti-bullying because it is a servant program, but it is not the quick solution you are looking for. In fact I've read where school's approaches to fixing the problem is failing mainly because they are trying to use quick solutions like lectures and words. Again, you can research it to find out. I agree with Lisabob about the schools, at least from my experience with schools in our area, good luck. Barry

I have a lot of good stories of the advantages of wearing a uniform while traveling, but it is also the only adult forced rule while I was the SM. Not that it had to be, most of the boys agreed. We created the rule when I once stopped at a rest stop. They were my scouts, but I saw a very nervous store clerk watch 25 church kids running around in out of the store grabbing snacks and so on. I jokenly said something about it to the clerk and he said the hardest part is not knowing which adults belong to those kids. I realized that store clerks are a lot less nervous when they can identify the adults responsible because they are dressed the same as the kids. And they can identify if the kids belong in the same group. It just being courteous. Barry

Let me start by asking the question of why we dont ask the question of adults getting tired of working with younger scouts? What do the adults do different? Then I would like to propose that older scouts are adults, not boys. I will also point out that a 12 year old boy is a really different person from a 14 or 15 year old man. If the adults are treating the 15 year olds with the same aspect of the 12 year olds, there is going to be problems. I think the BSA attempted to attack the problem with Venture Patrols, but that doesnt help at all because the takes the older scouts away from the troop program, it doesnt enhance it. That is not to say the Adventure patrols arent good for the troop, but they shouldnt be done in a way that it segregates the program. A lot of what causes these problem is the adults give the older scouts the task of working with the younger scouts without the responsibility of accountability. They are basically doing what the adults tell them to do. The older scouts arent being allowed to inject their ideas and solutions to the program the same as the adults, and they arent given the expectation of serving the younger scouts so that they are better scouts when they get older. The older scouts are being sent in as baby sitters and that is not boy run. Here is a few things to remember. Younger scouts learn the most and learn the fastest by watching older scouts in action, not by going to classes. Classes to me include New Scout Patrols. Send the older scout away, and the younger scouts growth slows down a lot. And they don't gain the skills to lead younger socuts when they get older. Older scouts by nature are very servant oriented when they are given independent responsibility. I have found that scouts 14 and younger are terrible troop guides. I never had a good one. On the other side, I find that 16 year old and older scouts are great troop guides. Ive never had a bad one. The difference is puberty. Young scout by nature are self serving because that is an instinctive protection mechanism. Let the younger scouts watch and learn from the olders scouts, not the adults. Older scouts need to really run the program so the younger scouts learn by watching. In general, give older scouts a stake in their responsibility for the troop performance and you find a scout who wants to work as an adult. I find that scouts teamed up with an adult can do great thing provided the adult doesnt try to dominate the team. The adults should take the approach as advisor and cheer the scout to lead new ideas. I found that scouts have great ideas and dreams, but they aren't use to adults letting them act out on those ideas and dreams. And yes, we adults are terrible at letting them try because we can't stand failure. But working as a team can change that. Isnt that what we adults do anyways. At one point in our program 40% of our scouts where 14 and older. I once took a poll and found that most of those scouts liked the idea of joining a High Adventure Patrol, but had no interest in the high adventure part of the patrol activities. They just wanted an identity of being something different than the 12 year olds. If you really want to get the older scouts more engaged, they are going to have to be welcomed as adults but the adults. Its not easy, it takes practice and a significant attitude change by everyone. A good start is pulling in the older scouts in with the adults and ask the group for new idea to make the troop more fun for all the scouts. The SM will have to keep interjecting the responsibilities of the program like teaching scouts skills and working with the new scouts. But eventually, the team will try some new ideas. The older scouts and the adults will work together to make the program better for all the scouts. Barry

Well I read the post as a little humble bragging. And rightfully so, you worked very hard to pull the troop up to this place. Weve all seen your blood, sweat and tears as the forces seem to work against you even when you knew you were doing it right. Oh, I know you questioned yourself now and then, but you had it pretty much right all along. I think the boys feel it too, and they dont want to lose that ground they worked so hard to get. But like the adults, the scouts will find out that growth is more about learning from the failures than celebrating the gains. Still, even with all that, they still have a Scoutmaster they can count on, and a troop that is fun despite the growing pains. In all its inconsistency, the boys will still find that Scouting is the one thing they can still count on in their lives. Yep, it will be an interesting year, but you all earned it. Barry

I was responding to CalicoPenn's statement about being raised by scientific parents. Barry

>>So I was hoping that there was something more to the concept. Perhaps someone can elaborate?

Prayer is positive thinking. Beary

>> There is no heaven, there is no hell, there is no divine intervention. Storms are just storms, floods are just floods, fires just fires, god has nothing to do with anything that happens. I gave been immeasurably happy since I realized this.

You will get a good jump start by getting the scouts the SPL Handbook and the Patrol Leader handbook. Those books are pretty good, but you need to get them and read them as well so that you aren't guiding in conflect of the books. In fact, I think you can almost tell them to go by the book and they won't need much help at first. Most of the answers for the boy running a basic program are in those two books. Typically its the adults who don't read the books that get in the way. Barry

>>Two years latter, we still suffer from the bad reputation we earned, it's tough to overcome something like that.

>>>>I've got 14 years of unit leader experience,

Some folks just cant get past their own world to see the big picture. There is a lot more room for different ideas and methods than just their one size fits all type of scouting. Or maybe they just dont have good personal skills, who knows? Still, you have to be somewhat picky on the suggestions you choose because Ive done this long enough to recognize that some folks style of forcing scouts to be boy run is not the same as guiding them to grow boy run. I personally think you are doing a pretty good job Eagle732 and both the parents and scouts should be proud to have you as their troop adult leaders. What I think some of the folks are saying is dont get stagnant and be satisfied with the program you have, keep it growing. Boys change, so your program has to change. Not a lot at once and not to fast, but your troop should have some differences next year because your boys are more mature. Guide it so that it keeps becoming more Boy Run next week, next month and next year. If you dont, then your 16 year old scouts may get bored with a 14 year old program. Dont be afraid to constantly evaluate your troop and make changes so that there is a place for all the scouts. Its not easy, but very rewarding. There are a lot of good ideas here (and not so good), just keep asking and then pick the good ones that fit your style of leadership and your troops program. I think for most of us, we just want to help you love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>My personal un-pc view is that our public school system discourages independance, out of box thinking and initiative, so that's reflected in their scouting activities.

This is a very good question and since I dont have the talent of many folks here to be short about and answer, I will throw in just a few comments and go from there. I do like what jblake has written. As a SM, I personally had a lot of goals. But if you added them up in one bag, It would be that I developed the scouts so that if the adults didnt show up to a meeting or campout, the scouts would behave the same. I was trying to put the adults out of a job. As for the boys, we taught them to set goals from the day they came in. When they were learning scout skills, we ask them to set a goal for learning the next skill or set of skills. We asked them to set personal goals of completing task and ranks and build a plan to meet that goal. We started with skills because that is small goal and isnt hard for the scout. As they get in the habit of setting small personal goals, bigger goals become easier. I always laugh when a scout has set a goal of getting the Eagle without a plan of reaching that goal. I never really cared about the scouts goals, that is their plan. I only encourage them to set goals. We also set goals in the PLC. I would sit down with the SPL after he was elected and we would each discuss some things we would like to change or add to the program. From that discussion we would develop a goal or a choice of goals. Sometimes the SPL wanted to discuss the list with his PLC and come up with a goal together. We always have a JLT a couple weeks after election where the PLs are asked to set their goal goal or goals based on the SPLs goals. I sometimes asked the PLs to set goals on each of the eight methods. Simple easy goals, but something that gets the PL to think about improving the Patrol. OK, that is the quick and easy without me getting to wordy. Great Question. Barry

I think being out of the room was fine, but it is important to know what was going on. In fact, being out of the room lets the scouts act in the way they think is appropriate and allows you to see what needs fixing. Your goal is teach them the skills so that the meeting would run no different if you didn't show up that day. You are teaching independence. In my world, the boys do nothing wrong, they just dont know how to do it right yet. So we train them. Also, never give a boy more than they can handle in the next meeting. In other words, dont give a one hour lecture on how to run meetings. He needs only just enough to have the confidence to get started. Then you go from there and build on his experiences. I typically never give more than two suggestions for him to try at the next meeting. I like to meet with the SPL after a meeting and ask him how it went and where we could improve. I usually sat outside the room near enough the meeting just long enough to get an idea of the tone of the meeting. You dont need to hear the whole meeting to see the problems. The number one biggest hugest problem for most newer SPLs is group control. We all go through it, it just takes time to learn how to control groups. I give the SPL a couple ideas to try at the next meeting. Anything from just ask the problem scout to leave to leave the room to remind all the scouts that only one can speak at a time. I had one basic rule for all scouts and adults all the time, "never ever yell". Yelling is a sign of losing control. That rule forces us to learn the skills to control groups. Or in my case, it motivates the scout to ask for help when yelling seems the only way for him to gain control. The other problem for most new SPLs to control meetings is organization. I dont know why, but 90% of SMs dont teach or use agendas. Instead they let the scout run amok the whole meeting by memory and rarely if ever does that work smoothly. Meetings always take rabbit trails and long discussions that distract the SPL. Then they stand there in a long pause trying to remember where to go from there. It is a no brainer for a boy to simply look down and go to the next item on the list. Take two equal scouts running two meetings, give one and agenda and that meeting will always run half as long and under more control. Our scouts at JLTC wrote at least 18 meeting agendas in for days of training. I figured one day that my SPLs probably wrote at least 50 agendas during their six months of leadership. That didnt include other agenda he asked for from other scouts like the campfire and activities agendas. Agendas dont have to be long, just a few lines. I think you are doing OK and your scouts are running into normal problems. You just need to gain the experience of helping scouts work through these problems. But remember these are good problems that you want. Youre here to teach them skills of leadership. If you dont know what is broke, how can you fix it? And just because your troop is boy run and you dont always sit in meetings doesnt mean you arent proactive in learning the problems and fixing it. Giving scouts the skills to be successful is how you build a more solid performing boy run program. And remember, the other scouts learn by watching the older scouts. I used to tell my SPL that even if he didnt need an agenda or need to take notes, do it anyways so the others scouts watching learn from him. Your one problem that I see is that you dont need to work with your outgoing SPL, so you will need to work with the other three scouts at the same time. Maybe you and your SPL can work as a team. I think you can look forward to a lot of great Scoutmastering days a head. I really enjoyed working with the SPL and the PLC in these kinds of situations. They will grow like crazy and you will loose sleep smiling with pride. Ah, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I meant your goals. Boys are in the troop for the adventure. Adults are in it to help boys become men of character. You cant get out of a rut if you dont know where you are going. For example: The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. The BSA wants ever part of the troop program to contribute to that Mission. Does your troop program do that? Here is the thing, if you dont have a goal, how do you measure if you are making progress. The BSA has given you a vision or goal for the boys. But that doesnt mean you can't have your own goals to reach those higher goals. I imagine one reason your scouts struggle in planning is because it isnt fun. You could change that by surprising them with a couple of pizzas, and that works at least once. But the important question for you is how does planning prepare a boy to make ethical and moral choices? If you dont know, then maybe you the adult are stuck, not the boys. If the adults dont have a clue, how can the boys do any better? How can they get out of the rut when the adults don't know how planning makes them into better men? I had an agreement with my PLC: If I couldnt show them how "anything" they did in the troop improved their character, they could throw it out of the program. That was as much a challenge to me as it was to them. I had to either throw it out or change everything in the troop so that it in some way developed character. In truth, not much changed at all because the program is pretty good, but I now understood simple things like learning knots and packing a tent develops charactor. Boy run is very important to me because I know how the responsibility of making independent decisions gives a boy the understanding of making the right decisions. Being a good leader of a boy run troop is not instant. It takes time to find your footing and learning what works and what doesnt. But if you dont know where you are going in the first place, you are already stuck in the mud. What do you want to see in your 18 year old scouts? How are you going to get there? I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Have you camped with the troop? For that matter, have you watched a troop meeting? I'm courious why the troop is asking someone that isn't a member of the troop to take over the leadership. Barry

Turning the troop into a backpacking troop is a wonderful way to turn the program into a self-reliance teaching program. I once had a mother donate money to our troop when she realized how well the program worked. Her 18 year old son (not a scout) went to his 14 year old scout brother to learn how to stay dry on the forcasted wet church campout he was about to go on. It was a little thing, but it made a huge impression on her because it was the first time she realized that her son would be OK if left out in the woods by himself. Something most moms fear I guess. Barry

Not bad really, I think you are getting there. But what are your goals? The troop of today shouldn't look like the troop of tomorrow because Scouting is about boys growing into men of character. Boy Run has a purpose in boy growth, if boys are growing, then they are changing which is probably why your COR doesn't like it. Likely nobody has explained it to him in that way. This isn't Cub Scouts, the Troop is the real world scaled down to a boys size. What do you want the 17 year old man in your troop to look like? Folks will not understand a program when they don't see the vision. Barry

Through my years of working with boys, I have witnessed that the adults the scouts respect the most in the area of a relationship with God are adults who role model a moral lifestyle without really exposing their own personal religion. I have seen grown up scouts confess this to those adults later in their life. Its more of an adult problem than a scout problem. An adult who thinks there is hypocrisy in scouting is an automatic red flag that they are not likely a good advisor in this regard. If one adults response is judgmental and sets the boy in one direction, it takes away from his ability to broad minded and find his own answer. All of us wonder about these things now and then, but we must take the approach that its life experiences that give us direction. Its normal and we need to remind scouts that. But we adults tend to want to give instant answers when in reality this is something that takes a long time to understand. There is really no one answer that can fix this scouts dilemma instantly. Instead encourage the young man to watch and listen. Really its best for adults to be passive when it comes to our relationship with the higher spirit. Encourage questions, but never give a direct answer. Instead give them a question that allows them time to think. The scout will respect you for that. The Troop adults job is really simple and only need to be persistent that the morality of the oath and law are not mans creation, but from a higher source. This way the boy can measure the difference between decisions based from an immortal source compared to decisions based from a self serving man. Adults just need to insure troop culture of measuring decisions by the oath and law. And it is important that judging behavior remain consistent for everyone. That way the adults arent the experts in the area and only need to ask the scout how he sees the application of his behavior, or others behaviors compared to the scout law. The adults dont have to come off has experts, in fact respect can go a long way when the adult admits that it something each of us are still learning or pondering. Hopefully the scouts start to filter many of their decisions through the law and oath, and they start to get a better understanding of how life can more fair and less self serving with guidelines based from a higher source. Dont make a big deal out of any of it. You certainly cant be preachy or threatening. I know scouts can have lively discussions in this area as well and the adults just need to encourage civil if not a pleasant dialogue. But if the adults encourage an environment of judging by the law and oath, the boys will not only learn to respect it, they will want more of it. Ive especially seen boys from abusive families embrace the oath and law because it is fair and takes the confusion away from right and wrong. they feel safe in an environment where everyone is judge by the same set of guidelines because they dont get that at home. This kind of went long, by apologies. But it is a good question, as we can always expect from Lisabob. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

The Last Frontier Council has just such a course unless it has changed in the last couple years. It is a two weekend course of outdoor skills where the participants are working out of their pack during the whole course. I can't remember what its called and I have not attended it because I was a little busy at the time for that much additional outdoor training (I was camping 70 days a year at the time). It is considered a very advanced elite outdoor skills course. The instructors are all very experienced and passionate with sticking with a strict syllabus. I never heard anything but rave reviews about, but the last I looked at it, it was starting to struggle with filling the class. My personal opinion was that it was targeting folks out of Wood Badge and many folks are burned out of training at that time. Barry

I would suggest you Not break up the two patrols because you would in a sense be starting over. Its hard enough developing patrol bonding without breaking them up every time the troop becomes imbalanced. Instead you use the existing patrols as a resource for future new patrols. This is the one time that I would use the NSP. I have experienced this very scenario a few times and learned the hard way from the experience. You will be a lot farther a head with the first two patrol staying together and growing stronger. I think you need at least three NSP with 20 scouts to be manageable. I think you need at least two Troop guides per patrol and another ASPL or JASM to help manage work with the TGs them without actually being involved with any patrol. There are several ways of getting the two scouts per patrol, but there is one way we did it that worked pretty good. We assigned an old patrol to work with a NSP. We called them Big Brother Patrols. The NSP would set up their camp near the old patrol. Far enough to have patrol separation, but close enough that the Troop guides can walk over in just a few seconds. The work together the first few months as separate patrols, but in the same groups so that the new scouts have role models to watch. The problem is you have three NSPs and only two existing patrols. If you choose this idea, this might be one reason to only have two NSPs, but you have to understand the work required of working with 10 untrained, undisciplined 11 year old boys. The scouts need to see it coming and understand how to deal with it without yelling and getting frustrated. There are several ways you can approach the 20 new scouts, but everyone needs to understand the future problem of mixing the new scouts into existing patrols later, or if that is even possible. When we have NSPs, we mix the new scouts into existing patrols in about six months. If we need to create new patrols, we ask if anyone in the existing patrols would like to start a new patrol. We also allow the NSP to become a permanent patrol also, but that has never happened. There is usually a couple older scouts that would like to create a new patrol and recruit scouts (new and old) to join their new patrol. That is how you can create new patrols without breaking up the old patrols. But you dont want to do that at the beginning because it requires to much work on the older scout to develop the new scouts up to speed to where the work within the existing patrols. The NSP is the better route in this case. Does that help at all? Barry

>>Best idea keep the new scouts together with an older troop guide

I was the SM Specific trainer for our District for four years and I ran into the very same challenges Kudu mentioned. I also was of like mind with Beav that we couldnt stray away from the subject at hand. There are many important reasons for that, but just staying consistent with the training of other districts was important at the time. We discussed that these courses could not become a lecture about Barry Boy Scout program, or Bobs Boy Scout Program or Carols Boy Scout program. It was the BSAs and we needed to respect that to the fullest possible. I must admit that I was asked to take on the course to make the nine hours more palatable. SM Specific is by far one of the most boring adults courses presented by the BSA. We tried a lot of ideas to make it a better course including using three different very experienced scouters who were also very good presenters to break up the tone during the nine hours. Just having a different voice and face can be a relief. The reason we insisted on experienced presenters was we wanted a lot of actual experience stories backing up the subject lines, and to break up the lecture. And that worked very well. Our district developed enough of a reputation that we were getting a few participants from other districts. It was a bit a struggle not to make comments or criticize some parts of the program and we worked hard to push the BSA intent of each subject. For example I absolutely despise the way the BSA presents the Venture Patrols. Our troop had a very successful older scout program at the time that wasnt a model of the BSA Venture Patrol. Still I presented the subject the way the BSA had it in the text, and then I followed with experiences of our High Adventure Program or Older Boy Program. Truth is while I think the differences in the BSA program and our program is significant in performance, they dont appear all that different in definition. Another area of difference between the three presenters was Uniform. The uniform, believe it or not, is discussed in different context at least three different times through course. But I must admit that while all three of us use the Uniform method a little differently in our programs, the differences were not far enough away from the course text. I also admit I had the Patrol Method section and I didnt fully present it as adults taking such a big part. But here is the thing, we found that 99 percent of the participants dont really care what its called or how it is defined, they want to know how to do it. It doesnt really matter the subject, training, uniform, leadership, Patrol Methods, they really want to hear more about the hows than the whats. Patrol method is very difficult to get in the BSA text, so 20 minutes of how to work with boys goes a lot farther than just reading the text. The number one question that was always asked and complained about in all training is that the BSA doesnt do enough training on is how to work with misbehavior. Misbehavior is perceived as the biggest challenge by many of these folks. So I presented real life scenarios of dealing with Misbehavior in a patrol method application. I did the same thing when they asked about leadership or teaching or planning and so on. I also gave examples of how to combine the eight methods. I also spent a lot of time discussing the boy run part of the SM Handbook text during the patrol method. Its a pretty good place to air out and let participants ask questions. We purposely did not present anything that contradicted the BSA text. In fact we tried to used real life stories to color in a better picture of what the text was trying to say. We had three different leaders from three different units that kept the real life applications in balance and in within the intent of the text. That is how we did it and I think it worked out really well. I love this scouting stuff. Barry