Eagledad

I like the idea of a known set of coordinates for troops that have not done geocaching. Our troop likes to do survival geocaching where the scouts need to find the boxes for firestarting, food and other nice to have needs when you are dumped out in the wilderness with nothing accept a sleeping bag. It takes time to set up a geocaching course. Barry

>>Is there program experience that one can comment on where the program went back and re-emphasized scout skills as a means to improving patrol leader success?

What ever you teach them, work to make all the instruction consistent between the teachers so that they are role modeling a style of teaching for the scouts. And, since you eventually plan to hand the responsibility over to the scouts, your instruction to the ASMs should be the same one you plan to give the scouts. For example, our troop does something like this for our adults and scout: 1.Introduce yourself. 2.Tell them what you are going to teach. 3.Hold up the resource of what you are going to teach so they know where to find it. (Scout handbook, MB book, other) 4.Demonstrate the skill so that they can see it first. 5.Have them follow along with you if they can the second time you demonstrate the skill. 6.Have them practice the skill as you observe. 7.Sign them off when you are convinced they know the skill. "Important:" Sign off with your full name and dont forget the date. Im not suggesting that use that list, it is only an example of how we teach all our adults and scouts. Try to do something very easy, very basic and very repeatable. Its interesting, but you will find that scouts who have seen this style of teaching repeated through experience will be able to do it themselves when given the opportunity. By the way, we were taught this style back at the old Wood Badge. Barry

Wow Twocubdad, that is a great post and you are right on target. I learned back in college that about 4 percent of the population is natural leaders, or in your words the charismatic leader. But scouting is a program that develops the other 96 percent into leaders as well. I also want to support what you said about the scout craft skills. Done correctly, the first class skills program is one of the best tools for teaching leadership skills. . I have always said that what scouting does so well is develop confidence. It really doesnt matter how skilled you are if you have the confidence to move forward. My SM Minute for this subject is about the fire that started to spread in San Francisco. Several stations were called in so it wouldnt spread to the other parts of the block. But there was so much heat from the fire; the firemen had to back away. About that time one fire truck came fast down the hill passing the other trucks with its sirens blaring and didnt stop until the firemen were close enough to jump out and blast the fire far enough back so the other trucks could pull in. A few weeks later the Mayor presented City Awards of Merit to all the firemen of that truck. When he got to the captain of the truck, the mayor asked if there was anything the city could do to thank the men. The captain replied that a new set of brakes for the truck would be wonderful. Leadership is easy when you can pick and choose the best leaders at the right time, but it takes special leadership when it is thrust on you without planning. Scouting prepares our youth for the day the brakes go out. Thanks Twocubdad Barry

So what I gather you are saying Stosh is that your cherry picking post didn't apply to this thread and you were really starting a new one. OK. By the way, I knew what cherry picking meant, it just didn't make sense to the discussion. Barry

>>Cherry picking your best boys to get special treatment is viewed by all the outsiders as unfair, and a point of conflict for those sitting close on the fence. Without teamwork of the patrols, this problem will always arise in the troop.

Sounds like your Scoutmaster is a really good man Beav. No surprise, I enjoy reading your braggings about your troop, and your son. I also learned quickly to ignore age and because some boys mature faster, or slower, than others. And we once had an 11 year old bicycle racer in our troop, how could I tell him he wasnt qualified to go on a High Adventure bicycle trip in reality, we need him to train us? One other thing that you kind of hinted to is the SM also has to be of some authority for the adults. Just like with the boys, I learned the hard way that adults need to prove themselves as well. We had one adult who didnt feel he had to attend any of our Northern Tier shakedowns and he made our lives miserable. But more importantly, he made his sons trip really miserable. As long as the SM is fair minded with everyone, folks may grumble, but they will respect the decisions. As for the ASMs getting to be the good cops, I didnt get into that side of it, but that is the way it works out. The scoutmaster knows that, but they dont mind because it works to their advantage when the system is used correctly. Barry

Yes, from the scouts perspective, shakedowns are important for training and for finding our physical and mental weaknesses. But there is a bigger issue here and you nailed it, maturity. This is one of those situations where the boys have to learn the lesson. If they dont learn it here, it is going to hurt a lot more later on in life. Who knows if they listened to your wisdom, but that is your job and I know you do it well. Before I became a SM, I was talking to a Scouter whom I respected very much. He was a very successful SM of one of the most boy run troops in our town. He told me once that good SMs usually are a bit of the bad cops for the boys because they dont always say what the scout wants to here. I know when he told me that, I was not going to fit that stereotype and instead I was going to be a good cop. But in the end, well. Scoutmasters are viewed by the scouts as the vessels of wisdom, so there is a certain sting when the SMs words are not the path the scouts want. Good Scoutmasters are more consistent with their guidance because they work from their principles, not their emotions. Good scoutmasters dont see scouts as bad or good, but instead they judge their behavior as inside or outside of scout like behavior, or maturity. The scouts respect that because they see the SMs words as fair and just. They may not like what they hear, but they will respect it. Your two scouts left your meeting disappointed. But since you are the fair minded wisdom of the troop, they likely respected what you said as the truth. Now they have to decide if they are willing to put forth the effort to against their will. If they do, they will have grown from their own initiative and matured a little. And really, that is the way it should be. We adults cant change boys; we can only show them the right path and the reasons why that path is better. They have to decide to change and when they do, it is usually for the rest of their life. That is why this program can be so powerful. I hope they choose correctly. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

No games or tricks here Dan, thats not my style. Apparently you feel the need to belittle folks whom you dont agree to discredit them. You know you can have discussions without being confrontational. For example, if your data is so good, why would confrontation be necessary? I guess we need a psychologist to explain that. Thats OK Dan, you go ahead and attack away, but send me your data on the small conclusive studies so I can research just how non-biased they are. But get ready, if you really know anything about this kind of research, then you also know that your conclusive conclusion is at a lot more risk than I am. Barry

>>Then it won't be hard to cite some evidence that shows this for two-parent families where both parents are the same-sex, from credible, non-biased sources, as aquaticeagle has asked, twice now

>>How so? Because the kids will grow up outside of a box and will learn that the world is not Pleasantville? I can pretty much guarantee you that alcoholic or drug-abusing parents and parents who die at an early age from lung cancer have a much greater impact on a childhood than a child being raised by two women or two men.

>>Taking away the rights of people that are out to do no harm to anyone else is discrimination whether it be about race, ethnicity or sexual preference

>>It's sad. Many people still think that being black is not something they want their kids to think is normal or beneficial for a healthy family environment.>Barry, generally only the agrarian monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) view homosexuality as a sin. Most of the other religions in the world are more tolerant of such naturally occurring human diversity

>>Not every religion has a problem with homosexuality, or sees it as an impediment to being morally straight.

It takes away the practice of learning responsibility and the process of follow thru. It is a convenience for the summer camp staff, which I can understand. But as a SM, I'm in it for the growth of my scouts. I would still use the blue cards and request the staff support my wishes. Barry

The problem is the program leader is not directing it to happen. If the SM pushed and and explained the value of the guys going it alone or at least as few adults possible, the adults would follow because their sons would gain from it. I kind feel from your comments that they don't care. It doesn't even sound like they are afraid of letting the scouts go it alone, they just want to use the Patrol to play. Until the adults change, you have found the limitations of your troop program. This is as good as it gets for all the scouts. The good thing is your persistence might have the effect of a slow trickle of water falling on the rock. Eventually the rock gives way. Barry

>>If you'll read what I've been posting here, you'll see that I've written several times that when a belief involves harming anyone it is not okay.

>>By excluding gays the BSA is telling the youth of America that it is not okay to be yourself and be true to your heart.

>> I'm hoping the SPL will have at least some meals with the adults as that is a great time to have a conversation about what's going on with the Troop, and what's coming up.

>>We envision the SPL camping and eating with the adults, which we hope will provide even more evidence that we are willing to treat the youth leaders as peers in running the Troop, if they will step up to the challenge.

Well Done Beveah. I must admit I cringed when I read "reshuffle". I didn't know how to respond and so I didn't respond at all. I also know that no matter how Brent does this, the situation will require a really dedicated set of adults working together on the same vision. While the methods and styles will change, the vision shouldn't. I can say that because I have been there and done that in so many different ways. I'm not bragging because it hurts to write that we did it wrong a lot more than we did it right. There are very few new ideas out there I haven't already experienced. I haven't seen any here. At this age of the boys and in Brent's situation, patrol dynamics is fragile and requires constant tilling. Not only until the boys gain enough experience wisdom for it to become second nature, but also until the adults learn enough to understand the nature of boys and of dynamics of patrol method. Have courage and don't be afraid, but don't get cocky either. Only humility will keep the troop going in the direction of boy run. That is also biblical. You did a good job on the reply. Barry

>>I will be working through upcoming training to include some simple but basic instructions on phone etiquette. This will fit in with the ideas that we are working our phone trees more and the PLs will be expected to communicate more effectively with their patrol members.

I tried to do them as soon as possible. I did them before, after and during meetings. I once did one at a soccer practice for a scout who was leaving town for a couple weeks. I did a couple while hiking in Philmont and did an Eagle SM Conference while walking during a 12 hour overnight Walk To Man Kind Cancer fund raiser. Ive done them in the Scouts house and in mine. Done a few in cars and once did one over the phone for a scout who wasnt even in my Troop. For me however, just having the opportunity to just sit and talk with a scout could sometimes be a SM Conference. A long drive to a camp can lead to many interesting discussions. The CC once told me that the scout for which they had just completed a BOR couldnt really point out the specific SM Conference for his rank because we always talked. I guess you can set specific times and locations, but you may risk missing out on some great conferences. Great memories. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

Hi Brent Well, here is how we did it and it worked fine. We told the existing patrols that we were starting a NSP and they would be merged into the existing patrols after summer camp or about 6 months. Since we got so many new scouts, we needed a new patrol. This is a great opportunity for a scout of any age to start a new patrol. The only request we put on them is that they build a balanced patrol, meaning spread the ages. That wont be a huge problem for you since your guys are about the same age. Our Troop grew from 12 to 90 in about six years, so we use that method several times and I don't recall any real problems. It doesnt disrupt the existing patrols much and it gives a scout looking for change an opportunity. But let me say my concern here is that want to do this as soon as the new scouts join. I written before that patrol dynamics can be disrupted significantly when more than two new scouts are added to a patrol. The reason is because the new scouts are so undisciplined and have so little experience in a troop program, they require a lot of attention. If you go with your plan, you will be creating three brand new patrols instead of just the one NSP that will need a lot of attention. That makes it very hard to be boy run. By keeping them in a new Scout patrol for a few months getting them up to speed, you reduce the risk of a few months of frustration for the majority of the scouts. I think you would be better off electing the SPL and recruiting two Troop Guides to work with the new scouts for the next few months. Then merge the new scouts into the patrols in about six months before the next elections. That way the two existing patrols don't feel like they are starting all over as new patrols. They feel like they still have control over the situation. What ever you do, it is a good problem getting that many new scouts. Good Job. Barry

>>A Scout handbook is the Scout's record and is by no means official! The BOR signs off on the advancement form. That is official.