Eagledad

>>And just to be really clear, the "line" is between "local option" and exclusion.

>>That is the problem. If the CO was allowed to say either yes or no to the gay person, just like the CO can do with all the rest (or with any of us, for that matter), there would be no issue.

It's a trip they will tell to their kids. Barry

>>My point is that the character of each person needs to be evaluated on their own merits and not by merely slapping a label on them.

>>I don't think that excluding people for any generalized label or assumption is scout like.

Yes, it appears we have two successful opposing strategies. I dont know how opposing they really are, our primary objectives also were to bond the group and educate the parents to the program. I guess the major difference is that our program intentionally did it passively. I guess it goes without saying that I appreciate and respect your efforts. Well done. Barry

>>Is that two den meetings, a pack meeting and a scheduled outing per month?

Hi Robert This is an interesting situation. Typically the troop program follows the personality of the dominating adult. Usually the SM is that adult, but not always. By the way you are explaining the problem, I dont get the feeling you are that adult in your troop, which is surprise because you were a drill sergeant. There are a lot of good suggestions for how to change some of the traditions in your troop, but unless you are willing to force any changes, Im not sure what to suggest. Do the scouts have equal traditions of adults not being allowed to enter the Patrol sites? I might start there. Adults are role models and the expectation for respecting the adults should be the same for the adults respecting the scouts. But still I think you have bigger problems. No committee? Is there anyone willing to listen to your concerns? Your tone gives the impression you dont think you can make a difference. Am I just not reading your post correctly? I dont mind being corrected. We are here to help in anyway we can. In fact we love to help in this scouting stuff, but it would help to understand better why the SM isnt able to encourage some changes. Barry

>>But I do think that cub scouting fishes with a large net. It shouldn't surprise us, then when a lot of the fish slip through the holes on us. If we were more selective about who and how we recruit (fishing with a smaller, more tightly woven net),

I don't remember this being a problem for us, but maybe that's bcause a couple doctors give free physicals at a troop meeting in May every year. I'm sure a couple scouts still missed it, but maybe our firm handed treasure took care of late medicals. She had a way of making things happen. She still does even though all the kids have left the house. Barry

>>They need a program of den camping and outings done in conjunction with Scout Troops. If they get that, they will usually stay. If they don't, they will often quit. Too often Cubmasters and Webelos Den Leaders don't understand that.

>>Personally I don't think the program is the problem, by and large.

>>You're restating what I copied directly from the Health and Safety guide. (You read it right?) Again, It's his choice as to what kind of role model he wants to be. That is a reflection on his honor.

>>So, how do you monitor the counselors? How do you know if they arw doing what tey are supposed to be doing?

Patrol strength comes from the members of the group relying on each other for a successful group outcome. That requires each member to be challenged so that each ones growth and accomplishment work together for a team success. Look at your program in those terms. Think how you can add even a little tiny little challenge in each activity that forces the members to act as a group. I used to make up little excuses to ask the SPL for patrols to vote on this or that just to force them to act as a team. Something like voting to leave for camp at 6:00 or 6:30. The subject wasn't that important to me or the troop, but it was one little team building action. So get in the habit looking for opportunities that force the patrols to be, well a patrol. I learned that the more intense the activity or the higher the goal, the faster patrols bond. Quite by accident I found that laser tag is a fast team building activity. The quick intense laser tag sessions required the members to quickly volunteer into positions where they would work best as a team, and then quickly strategizing a plan for success. This is where the true leaders popped out. I know we can't do laser tag now, but you get the point. The troop program offers lots of opportunities to force scouts to grow if you just use them. I think "Time" is one of the troop programs best motivators of challenging patrols to grow. A schedule of 7:30 am reveille, 8:30 troop assembly, 8:40 troop or patrol activities forces patrols to work as a team to complete breakfast and be at assembly on time. And how about breaking camp? Surely they can do better. Once you see the patrols reaching those goals, give the SPL some excuse to tighten up the schedule just a bit. Keep the scouts challenged, if just a little. Our Troop of 80 can start breaking camp and be loading cars in 45 minutes. Can any of your troops do better than that? That requires patrols working together. I saw the outcome of this with a patrol at Philmont. The patrol wanted to do certain activities on the trail like fishing and they knew if they didnt get up and go early enough, they wouldnt have time for the activities. So they, not the adults, planned the night before a how work as a team and get on the trial an hour before sunrise. Since when does a teenage boy want to get up that early? It was fun to watch. But when you see scouts planning a strategy to work as a team for success, you have a strong group. Your plan is a good start, but dont be afraid to challenge the scouts. They wont mind the struggle if the work is fun and goals are worth it. Think of ways to force them as a patrol. Lots of little things can add up to get you that one big thing. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

This is a fantastic topic. I have some experience with your idea and there are some challenges. First we must understand the difference between your troops is not the scouts, it's the adults. I'm not suggesting one is worse than the other, just different like those different at music or golf than others. Some adults are better at some aspects of scouting. The challenge is that it doesn't matter what new skills the scouts take home, the adults don't know how let them in the program. They aren't being mean, they just don't understand the point. I fixed this at JLTC (today's NYLT) by requiring at least one adult leader spend half of the last day of training with their scout. In fact, I have come to believe we would go a lot farther sending SMs to NYLT instead of the scouts because they would understand better what we want the scouts to learn. The adults have to participate with the scout to have real impact on the troop program. The first problem I found with the SPL RT was getting both the scouts and adults to understand why. What is the point of taking more of someones time if they don't see the advantages? Does troop 111 really have a problem that they "want" fix? Every troop thinks they have a good boy run program, how are you going to convince they can be better? Second big problem for me was boys time. Even the best SPLs are busy. Adding one more scouting activity is a challenge. So it better be worth it. I learned the shorter the better. Minutes, not hours. That goes for adults too. They need to walk away excited to try the new idea. I hope I'm not discouraging you because SPL RTs is a great idea, but it will require a dedicated program leader for at least two years if not three. Keep it very simple for the next leader to take over and create simple documentation to refer back to and hold the program to it's intended boundaries. One last thing, unit visits is another wonderful idea. Visiting five troops was one of my ticket items and I got so much from it that I encouraged it when I was a Wood Badge Patrol counselor. Great subject. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>We have to remember that our program is run by amateur volunteers, many of them coming in with no Scouting background at all and no idea of what Scouts do -- they just want to help and do something good for their kids. And I think BSA gives us an organization, administrative burdens, and even a program that is ridiculously complicated.

>>Mixed age by contrast feels more like family. There's more a sense of mentoring like Eagle92 describes, and of growin' into responsibility and leadership rather than being elected into it. More a sense of being part of something long-lasting. Also a bit better behavior and safety-wise. Good folks can make either approach work, eh? But in terms of da sort of kid outcomes I care about, mixed-age has always seemed a bit stronger and more natural.

>>Maybe all we need is a couple of ad hoc babysitters that tag along to drink coffee and cover the 2-deep insurance requirements adopted by BSA.

>>Kinda makes one wonder how in the world BSA survived the Great Depression?, the wars when the men went off to fight, etc. etc.

>>So, since you "solicited" her for this task, knowing she had a newborn infant, I have to wonder what you expected her to do.

>>How would you go about intentionally killing a troop vs. letting it die?

>>You either need that personality A type, or you need the group as a whole to move together.. The "I will, if they will"..

I personally, with the blessing of the Key 3, tried to kill one of the districts oldest troops when I was district membership chair. The leaders in the troop where an embarrassment to the council, much less the district. Problem was the troop committee was ran by two very kind older gentlemen who were scouts in that troop as kids and they just couldn't let go. They were also prominent volunteers on district and council committees. The plan was to kill it so the gentlemen would be forced to change their registration then bring it back under a new CO and leadership. But I failed and the troop is still a struggle for the district 18 years later. Barry

>> End of story.