Eagledad

I'm just saying for this thread, if troops want new scouts and want to keep them, they have to do the work because cub leaders don't have the experience required. Barry

>> Most of the things that BD's composite parent sees as a surprise at the Boy Scout level shouldn't be a surprise if the WDL is doing his/her job.

So you don't know of One either. Barry

I'm courious, does anyone know any other country now or in history where marriage was anything other than a man and wife? Barry

I would love to do a study on the behavior of folks who dont answer the questions they were asked. Why was there automatic assumption of adults going wild? Sheesh. Anyway, I agree with the comments that scouts leaving early, not showing up to campouts and leadership issues are probably indicators of a program rut. Im going way out on a limb here and I could be way off, but I kind of get the feeling that while your adults are pretty well versed on how to run the program, but they dont really have a feel for where to go. They dont have a big vision that drives goals needed to reach the vision. The youth leadership problem you describe is a very common problem among troops that struggle with long range goals because they dont have expectations of improved maturity or really know what kind of maturity to expect. Its obvious that a 15 year old SPL should be a completely different leader than a 12 year old SPL. But yet many troops dont expect performances of behavior to be different for either one. A troop with a Vision of developing good leaders would have expectations for each age using each Position Of Responsibility (POR) as a stepping stone to a more complicated POR that requires more experience and maturity. A 12 year old shouldn't even want to consider a Troop QM, ASPL or SPL position because their responsibilities appear very demanding and grown up. Does your program have that? What I am saying is that the difference between a good program and a great program is a vision that requires the adults and scouts to keep overcoming challenges. What makes a program fun is the activities that teaches the skills needed to overcome the challenges. Many adult leaders like to say older scouts get bored working with younger scouts so they have to be separated into a program of just High Adventure. We found that not to be the case at all, what stimulates all scouts is overcoming challenges all the time. Small or big, its the skilled gained that satisfies us all, not the intensity of the activities or even the reward at the end. I think your guys are bored because they dont have any goals forcing them to mature. They arent having to improve their mind or bodies to overcome struggles. Sure your guys want a leadership position to get the next rank, getting the next rank is the only real challenge the program provides. Your asking how to hold a Scout accountable to his leadership responsibilities. But a good program will show the scout his failures without anyone having to tell him he failed. A scout who was supposed to buy and bring food to the campout and doesnt bring the food doesn't need any adult to tell him he failed. Hey, how is he going to fix it. The adults need to get 100 feet away and see how they overcome that challenge. If you could go visit a mature troop with lots of older scouts, you will likely find that most of their Eagles earned the Eagle at ages 15 or older. That is because they were busy doing other things like planning activities, teaching JLT and running the program. A mature troop challenges a scout at every age. A lot of troops struggle with older scouts because once they get first class, they dont have a lot to do for them except the same ol camping stuff. A mature troop sees the PL who just learned how to control a group, but needs more practice a managing and teaching, so he might be encouraged to be the Troop Quartermaster where he has to teach the Patrol Quartermasters how to manage their patrol gear, and how to be organized to load and unload the trailer. You want to make a scout feel like a grown up, give him a set of keys to the equipment storage with the rules that he, and only he, unlocks that door. What about program planning, we just dont automatically know how to move a whole troop from A to B one weekend a month and we dont just leave and camp when we get tired. Scouts have to develop those planning skills, and certainly not all at once. Steps to overcome the little challenges and learning life skills all along the way. Maybe the goal of the ASPL should be taking all the planning skills learned in the patrol and apply them for the troop. Think about the skills a scout will learn in that process and the maturity he will have gained, FOR LIFE. One of our visions in our troop was the Troop to function exactly the same even if the adults didnt show up. So we drove the program to take a 10 year old runny nose crossover Webelos and turn him into a full blown SM by age 18. Through the years of successes and failures (many failures), we develop a pretty good program where there were no worrys that the troop was in safe hands with the PLC even if the adults didnt show up. Im running long, but maybe your adults need to sit down and discuss where you see the program going, but would really like to see the program to go. One thing is for sure, you dont want your program next year to be the same as the one you have today. All programs need to mature all the time so as not to get stale and so the scouts actually mature into grownups. What would you like to see different a year from now? How would you like the scouts to be different in their maturity? Programs need visions that are next to impossible to obtain so that it doesnt really ever get reached and require change. Visions need to force your leaders to create shorter term goals that require the program to improve all the time to stay mature. Have your adults had that kind of discussion yet? Barry

>>what BSA considers an ideal situation, where there is a strong and continuing relationship between troop and pack, the troop would be aware of the Webelos den leader's lack of enthusiasm and actively go in to pick up the slack.

Wow, did you guys see the age of this thread. I was looking at what I wrote and noticed how much less gray was in my hair. I sure looked thin. Barry

>>"He will fry in hell!!!"..

>>No... they get the awards at the next meeting they attend after the CoH.

>>I was thinking about having some physical object to indicate authority. Maybe a gavel, maybe something else.

>>Unlike most, the MB's and awards are handed out at the CoH's, not ASAP, so the CoH's are "significant"

>>We established what we called Webelos Workshops.

Latin subtitles?

Eagle732's list is basically what we took, and is basically what you get at Philmont and most other BSA camps. Hey, don't forget pouring hot water into the instant oatmeal packets, then you don't even have a bowl to clean. Kind of works with grits, but add a little beef bouillon to the water and the grits become magical treat. Barry

Discussions of California politics always relect me back to the movie The Last Chase where Lee Majors character is driving his old race car to Free California because that is the only state left where the laws still allow freedom of choice. I laugh because the irony is California today is one of the least freedom of choice states in our county. The laws have become so restrictive that more people leave the state than move there. Taking away a persons freedom of choice doesnt change the mind. Barry

Many years back we had a troop in our District that ran a very cool campout where all the Webelos in the District were invited to see the troop in action. The troop generally got about 50 crossovers as a result of that campout, however they typically lost at least 30 or more scouts before summer camp. Short story is the Troop did not want to be a mega troop, so the adults turned their backs to the antics the older scouts played on the new scouts so as to drive away the weaker crossovers. That had gone on several years, but when the district found out, the SM was gone with in the year. When I hear stories of pranks and hazing, I think back on the choices the adults made in that troop. Barry

>>The charter is through what is basically the school PTA. The religious aspects don't seem to be stressed and it looks like a pretty good group. I appreciate the input I received here.

>>You will find that there are two kinds of Scouters on these pages: Those that think there are two kinds of Scouters, and those that don't.

>>But they don't think they have the authority. That needs to change too. I will tell the SPL that he didn't need to wait for me to step in, he could have done it himself.

>>Turning a Scout upside down when they earn their Bobcat is okay if the Scout is comparatively small (1st or 2nd grader) and the parent has enough upper body strength (most fathers, some mothers) and if the Scout is comfortable with it. Now a single mother may have her 5th grader join Cub Scouts and it would be very difficult for most moms to invert their son for this ceremony - physically. So an organization, to prevent lawsuits (i.e. loss of revenue) protects itself by banning the practice altogether.

Burnout is a difficult thing because even if the victims family and friends advice them they are burning out, he or she still has to make the decision to change and most of the time they dont. I think it is an important subject because it is the main cause of Webelos Drop outs. Dans (dkurtenbach) reply is pretty good, but its not just about changing personal rewards, its also the constant stress of responsibility adding to the other stresses of the job and raising a family. After I was SM, my dream job was the District Commissioner because I felt I could make some really big changes in the position. Through the years I was involved in some very successful complicated programs at the Cub, Troop, District and Council where I personally picked and led teams. I certainly got my rewards from the results of those responsibilities, but after 20 years and all that experience at just about all levels of scouting, I was offered my dream job and I declined. In fact I was offered any job I wanted on the District committee and council training committee the following five years, but my heart wasnt in it. I just got to where I cringed every time the phone rang. I used to grab the phone looking for the opportunity to discuss ANYTHING scouting. But after 20 years, I actually got a little nauseated from a phone ring. Like Dan said, once burnout starts, I think it stays. And while I think all the suggestions given are good for preventing burnout, Im not sure it can be prevented, at best it can only be slowed. When I became the SM, my family forced me to step way back on other scouting activities. I wasnt allowed to spend more than three nights a week doing scouting stuff and that could only be on Troop Scouting Stuff, nothing outside the troop program. Scouting discussions were NOT tolerated at the dinner table. That was enforced by the mom, but the kids liked it was well. But that wasnt a burnout problem, that was a family dynamics situation. The worst part for me is that I have a lot of knowledge earned from experience that I want so badly to spread to make the lives of Scouts and Scouters easier. I have a clear understanding how scouting works in creating citizens of character and leaders of integrity. I know how to get the older scouting program working for the benefit of the whole program. And I dearly love talking to scouts and asking them about the Patrols and youth leaders. I help out at the troop level now and then and that feels great. But once I found myself getting close to responsibility, I turned around. Its been ten years and I actually think I could take on a roll now, I can actually answer that phone without fear. But I haven't been invited yet, and I haven't found the courage to do it myself. I have to laugh, do you know how much the uniform has changed in the last few years? I would be starting all over. Maybe a good way to start is to get back in so I can build a team to develop a 12 step program for scout leader burnout. Waaait aaa minute! Barry

>>Who made you God's spokesperson?

>>I would love to eliminate the dining flys, patrol boxes and all that extra stuff and treat every outing like a backpacking trip.....

>>it's not a big issue, just an observation.

>>It was progressive Christians who fought for the rights of blacks in America - not the conservative ones.