Eagledad

>>Maintaining the merit badge councilor list....That sounds like a job I could probably do on the district level....Might just give the advancement chair a call.

>>In a decent council or district it would make sense....

Interesting, beav, you go and train the counselor to be a mentor. Ok, we don't really do that except with counselors who work with a lot of our scouts. As I said, the boys find many counselors that are out of the city and state. Personally I think just handing the counselor the book and letting him review it works pretty well. We will have to agree to disagree. As for the question of improving the blue card system, you should get the white sheets our council uses. It cuts out the One of the adults in the process. Barry

>>MBC->Scout's discretion communication->Committee Member->Registrar-> etc.>I think by and large folks teach others the way they have been taught. So if we teach adults checklists, they'll teach the kids checklists. Our example speaks more loudly than our words. I don't think yeh can get adults to help kids reach the goal of higher proficiency unless we as adults use behaviors and practices associated with higher proficiency.

Our Key Three had to deal with a real bad Troop scandal when the scouts found out that the SM (female) and ASM (male) were sneaking around behind their spouses, or scout's parents, for several months. It was a huge mess for the troop. Barry

It all depends on the program. We averaged an eagle every 2.5 months. The average age was 16.5. And we have several who did their EBOR a week before their 18th birthday, my son include. They weren't procrastinating, they were just so busy with other scouting stuff that Eagle was a lower priority. Adults set the vision of the program, if they believe scouts loose interest after age 14, their program likely is not interesting for scouts over 14. The largest troop in our district averages between 150 to 180 scouts any given year. A successful troop by most measures, but 90 percent of their scouts are 15 and younger. They have an Eagle program that guarantees Eagle by age 14 if the scout follows their program. You want to guess what the SM would say if you ask him why so few older scouts hang around? Our troop typically gets 1 or 2 of their new Eagles ever year. Oaktree is an active member on this forum and the SM of a troop with a high ratio of older scouts. Maybe he will chime in to the secret of keeping older scouts. But one thing I know about Oak, his vision for his troop includes older scouts. Ya gotta love scouting stuff. Barry

>> I'm suggesting that all scouts can engage in higher-order thinking, or reach a level of proficiency. If we let 'em. I don't buy that 95% of 'em can't.

>>I think that's utter nonsense. I think you're gettin' those results because of the system you have set up.What I'm gently suggestin' is that yep, yeh occasionally need to provide a bit more structure to a young scout or a new MBC when he's just gettin' started.>95% of youth and adults are capable of doin' this stuff on their own, without all that extra foorah. They can manage their own learning without a worksheet, and they can engage in normal communications, which these days usually involve email instead of 3-part cardstock forms.

Wow great post Guy. I agree with every point. Everyone has great points, but Guy puts the major points all in one basket. My first point was going to be the same as Guys, the older scouts. Through my experiences and working with other units, older scouts are major struggle because like most adults, they don't like change. They just dont like to be retrained. Them will bend a little, but you won't break them. Use them where you can, but don't let them get in the way of your goal. The changes will have to come from the younger scouts. Also Guys comment on a Patrol oriented summer camp really is important. Its more of a philisophical point, but it goes along with Kudu's 300 ft. rule. You need to isolate the patrols as much as you can so they have room to function as a team. The Patrol Identity Discussion going on in another thread is a really good read that supports Guy's point here. I might suggest you get the SPL Handbooks and PL Handbooks for both the adults and youth leaders. Use them together to build the basic structure of your new boy run program. I encourage all scout leaders at district and council adult training to use these handbooks instead of the SM Handbook because they are easy to read and get right to the point of the program structure. Its a lot easy to shape and control the adults when you have them refer to the same book the scouts are using. Im very impressed Guy, you have a natural feel for this scouting stuff. I hope you eventually get to work with adults in other units one day to help them in their struggles. Barry

>>I suspect they don't want to cook or just hang out together at meal time. I think the merger would help their camping attendance.

>>So I would like to discuss with the boys about merging the last two patrols together.....

>>I share TwoCubDad's lack of enthusiasm for da worksheets. And I reckon my own personal feelings on a checkbox, one-and-done approach to any advancement are well known in this particular pond I prefer approaches where da focus stays on the mentoring and the interestin' subject.

>>For my part though, I was bein' honest in my reportin' and my observations.

Beav, that is the most ridiculous analysis I have read on this forum in a long time. What next, suicide from Blue Card depression? Barry

Soooo youuu don't like the Iphone idea? LOL OK, what you're saying has some merit I guess. One Scoutmaster's success is another Scoutmaster's pain in the.... Barry

OK Beav, I'm struggling here: >>The reason for that is that da paperwork takes away from the quality of interaction. >Have yeh ever watched most of those interactions carefully? Both the lad and the adult are focused on the card, and not on the task, and not on each other.

>>"I really learned about responsibility from having to keep track of 150 blue card segments and 500 lines of signatures and initials." Boys learn real responsibility in da program through campin' and cookin' and hikin' and planning and leading and workin' together, not by keepin' track of paperwork. Real responsibility, eh? Not bureaucratic busywork.

>>I was informed that it is cheaper, and sturdier, to take the current BSHB, got to Staples, and get them to spiral bind it.

I feel the dinning fly is required safety gear. Every BSA outfitter (Philmont, Northern Tier, so on) and even most private outfitter include a fly so everyone can get out of the elements. Without a fly, scouts are forced to their tents during rain and snow where they can't cook their meals. My scouts have played hours of hearts, spades and go-fish under tarps. From experience, scouts are much more at risk of hypothermia even in moderate temperatures. The dinning fly is always at the top of someones back so that we can grab it quickly even while on the trail. All our patrols have packable dinning flys but they don't usually set them up unless the weather forces them. Barry

Bigbovine, may I call you BB. It probably surprises everyone here that I was a pretty strong personality in our troop. Not only did the troop basically call our troop boy run style "Barrys program", so did the District and Council. The SM who was replacing me knew a year ahead of time they day he would be the new SM. And from his perspective, he had some very big shoes to replace. I know this caused him some sleepless nights, because about a month before he took over, he took me out to lunch to discuss his concernes and he asked me to take a vacation from the troop for three months. And I did.. I had a similar situation when I took on the SM gig because my new CC was the SM I was replacing. He is a really really good guy and he taught me so much about Scoutmastering. But there were a few things I wanted to do different, so we butted heads until I finally said, this is how we are going to do things, if it doesnt work out, we will change. He not only agreed, he asked where he could help me best. We turned into a great team, but like all of us, he had to humble himself and bow to the new scoutmaster and his vision. We are who we are, and nobody has the same style or the same vision. You will not be happy until you try your style of scoutmasting working toward your vision. It won't all work the way you want, but you learn from it, change and try again. If you arent allowed to at least give it a try, then likely its not worth the stress because Scoutmasting even on its best days is HARD. There is nobody that understands the weight on your shoulders except those who have been there. Even your best hardest working ASM doesn't fully appreciate what a SM goes through. I know this because I was the ASM and it didn't come close. You need to take the other Scoutmasters to lunch and explain your concerns. You need to be willing to say no and walk away if you arent given some room to give the troop some of your style. As I said, its a tough job when everything is going well, so why bring predictable misery into your family. Family comes first. Barry

The scouts are not going to respect the adults as wise mentors until the adults respect the scouts as equal brothers preparing for life. Shifting the state of mind from dad to big brother requires practice. Barry

>>What about organizing events? Troop meeting, teaching younger scouts a skill, that sort of thing?>I'd like to hear more examples of SM created challenges.

>>"New politics" issues might include such things as environmentalism & "green" issues, gay rights, other group rights, vegan/vegetarianism, healthy foods, etc. And these tend to work as a constellation, ie, people who have gotten past the basic needs/security "old politics" issues and are focused on "new politics" issues tend to be involved or concerned with several overlapping causes, all of which might be "new politics" in nature.

I remember walking through camp one Saturday morning when one of our scouts asked as I walked by is the rinse water supposed to be cold or hot SM Barry?. I turned while still walking, but before I could answer, he fired off I know I know, look it up in the book.. No the book is not a required book to advance. But it can be everything else. It is THE main source the scouts refer to for all the answers. There is no need for the adults to be the experts of scout skills because its all in their book. There is no need for the adults to be the uniform police because its all in the book. In fact, the book has been the standard that has corrected and humiliated adults now and then. But the book is more than that. The book is also the scouts log of their experiences and goals. Anything and everything. Dates and times for goal deadlines. Hours of service and even a menu now and then. As a SM, I only need to refer to their book to see how they are doing and ask the questions that start them into some great stories. I enjoy most the book that look like they spent a day floating down the Mississippi. What happen Billy? the Scoutmaster asked laughingly? The Boy Scout book isnt the main official record to advance, but it could be. And at the very least, it should be the official log of memories. It should be a reminder of where theyve been and where they are going. So while I would accept any form of log to see when the scout signed off some of the requirements, I would still like to take a peek into his life as a boy scout. And can you imagine a 35 year old father pulling his dusty old Boy Scout Handbook out of a box that has been sitting in Grandma and Grandpas attic for so many years. What a treasure. Barry

>>This year we were truly boy-lead. The boys were taught how the process works, shown how to break down the planning components and how to construct a proper annual plan.