Eagledad

Mr. stosh, I agree with the point your are making, I truly do. But there is something missing. The scout you describe in your post doesn't need any coaching for the EBOR. For any reason. Sounds more like a helicopter Scoutmaster. A lesson for all of us is no matter how old and how experienced we scoutmasters are, we Scoutmasters can keep learning to grow and mature more. Barry

My best friend growing up was the youngest of three boys, so we spent many hours in his room reading old Boys Life and Mad Magazines. Both were very appropriate and entertaining for boys in that day. One reflected the typical boys dreams for adventure. The other reflected the typical boys' sarcastic view of the culture. I'm going to have to disagree with Fred: If the BLs today are what boys today need, they are a very boring generation. My sons thought they were a waste of money. I haven't looked at Mad Magazine in a long time. Barry

This issue has been hashed out here long before you joined the forum. I think even the liberal members (and moderators) on this forum would agree the discussion has pretty much moved past sexist dialog. I believe rose colored glasses are the cause of the responses lately. Barry

The BSA did not get it right. I sent the original post mentioning this ceremony to point out Nationals dishonesty when they justified their ban as a form of hazing. They could have just said it is dangerous, and everyone would have said fine. But their justification of hazing was at the very least unprofessional. National has made a lot of decisions that have given me pause to their motivation and management ability of the organization. But, calling the Bobcat Ceremony an act of hazing was my first Red Flag of their callus unprofessionalism toward the organization's members. That was the mid 90s. Barry

Not at all. The complaints are of the sudden big picture policy change. Or rather how Nationals less than honest approach toward the change. I don't ever recall National discouraging family camping. So, it is certainly gonna raise suspicion. Barry

I tried the hammock because I'm always looking for something to smooth out the hard ground. But I couldn't fall a sleep while shaped like a taco shell. Scouts enjoyed it for naps. Barry

I know, I KNOW! The moderators work very hard and we are grateful for their help. I would certainly enjoy meeting anyone of them and buying them lunch or differ. I certainly don't want the job. Do I? But, that doesn't mean they are good at moderating or even do it right. Are moderators trained? Are they critiqued? And shouldn't the rest of the list have some kind of tool to rate or comment moderators performance. And, if our posts quietly disappear (other moderators even comment on post ghost), shouldn't the poster at least get a notice and explanation of their foul. I do realize forums are not democracies and the owner and rules are set by the owner. There is no free speech in forums. Still, are the moderators guided, or just left to their own agenda, emotions. Maybe I'm out of line, let me know. Thank you for your time. Barry

You really think your experience is in the same context of this discussion!🙄

I agree. Most parents in those days “expected” their kids to move on after age 18 or high school graduation, whatever came first. When a whole community has the same expectation, reluctant parents are forced to go with the flow. When Congress forced healthcare providers to keep children on their parents healthcare policy until age 27, I knew that agenda was either following a cultural trend, or driving one. Barry

I admit both my disgust and disappointment with this thread. I was working with two out of state contractors this week who are scout leaders. They both told me their number one issue in running the troop is helicopter parents. The couple of their examples were very reminiscent of this discussion. While we had to deal with a couple of over zealous moms, it wasn’t anywhere near the number one issue. Both these leaders believe bringing in girls will kill the program as we know it. Im so glad my son’s got to experience a boy run program. Barry

This describes our program perfectly. Which makes this comment perplexing. Aren't you even curious how scouts in a troop of mixed age patrols accomplish this, and more? Barry

Your whole post is derogatory toward any style different from yours. But, as you say, that is how you roll. Barry

No, not at all. Good preparation is not cheating. I simply feel it is a lot of extra work (over the top) for what the board will ask. Your explanation of value life skill is a great motivation for doing it. Barry

As I have asked many times, if mixed age patrols don't work, how did traditional scouting (Bill Hillcourt) survive successfully for so many years? Since you never answer, I assume the answer is you just don't know how to do it. That is OK stosh, you are successful in your own style. So, instead of these ,us vs. them, posts, just give examples of how your work with your scouts without demonizing units who are different from yours. Or, you could ask for advice from those here who have successful experiences with mixed age patrols. Our troop is a backpacking troop, I've not heard a complaint from either the younger scouts or older scouts. Barry

I'm not debating the subject because I'm not sure there is a wrong motivation. I'm only explaining my reasoning for not coaching. I honestly believe being active in a good program is all a scout needs to be ready for the EBOR. He may need to brush up on some skills, but he knows those skills better than me. I don't think checking paperwork comes under the heading of coaching. However, I am guilty of giving a scout a few suggestions to calm his nerves. I have also given the scout a few suggestions mostly to calm the nerves of the parents who are observing our SM Conference. However, I have found many times that scout leaders who feel the need to coach their eagle candidates are either over estimating the judgment of the board or protecting their ego. I also feel that having to coach a scout for a successful EBOR implies some failure of the program. I actively try to seek out the problem areas long before the scout is working on his Eagle. While I know some folks have cause for concern about hostile EBORs, in general the motivation of most boards is only to express honor by giving the scout opportunities to brag about himself through their questions. With respect, mock EBORs seem over the top. Just suggesting it would appear to imply it is something to be anxious about. Barry

The rule is appropriate for a specific application. The problem is zero tolerance doesn't allow judgment of application. We had a local situation where the student was punished for a butter knife that fell out of his lunch sack. Mom had put it there to spread the condiments on his sandwich. I honestly do not understand why schools feel the need for "zero tolerance" anything. Barry

I'm not quite sure what you are asking for, but maybe this scout just had a bad day. I found that scouts who were only in the troop because their parents pushed them there tended to not have the enthusiasm you say this scout has. I'm sure your experience is the same. Based on your post, I would suggest the TG and SPL give this scout some room to work and see if they can find what does interest him. Every boy likes something. I had one very nerdy scout who was the son of an Air Force general and Eagle Scout. There was no way he wasn't going to have a boy scout experience. But, after his son ran away from camp one night, I sat with the General and asked him to let us work this out so that we don't have to handcuff him to his tent each night. Turns out his son is a computer genius. This was during a time when Troop Web sites were just starting to become a popular. So we asked him to develop our Web site. It turned him around. I don't know why, but that one notoriety changed him enough to where he could bare camping and all the baggage that comes with camping outdoors. I handed him his Eagle 3 years later. I ran into him three years later while he was working at an Ace Hardware store and I couldn't get him to shut up about scouting. Shesh!. So, one thing your scouts could do is find that one thing that makes the boy like himself when he is wearing his boy scout uniform. Barry

When my son was a Troop Guide, he would show his NSP how to cook a turkey on their first camp out so they would know that he likes to eat well on all camp outs. Barry

We all challenge growth in our own way. Our patrols cook all meals (lunch is optional) because we want the scouts to experience the group dynamics as well as the required skills for cooking and clean up. More importantly, I knew from my experience as a youth that nothing challenges and bonds a patrol more than preparing and cleaning up a meal. My experience as an adult taught me that very few activities stress the PL more than the group dynamics of preparing meals and clean up. If it takes too long, and it usually does at first, the scouts learn how to become more efficient. Same goes with camp set-up and break-down. As for the open ended Eagle questions, experiences of camping prepares scouts better for any generalized question from the board. I learned from this forum that a lot of units coach their scouts for preparation of the EBOR. It never occurred to me that a scout needed to be coached. His experience of scouting along with the skills learned by the requirements are enough in my mind. Barry

Forest for the trees. Adults who don’t have a childhood Scouting experience are changing the program. The touching taboo of today’s generation can’t understand how it calms confusion, soothes anger, and encourages confidence. It’s now viewed as inappropriate acts with indecent intentions. Still, I know of nothing better to calm the out of control ADD Scout than a gentle touch on the shoulder. I cant help but feel that future leaders will struggle to know the satisfaction of helping a boy grow to be a better person. Barry

Gatekeeping is the appropriate ,and noble, description in my mind of the EBOR responsibilities. For the award to have merit, presented accomplishments require accountability. To many adults show fear of responsibility in front of the scouts, which is ironic because the world expects accountability and the BSA markets itself as a program for building men of character. That being said, all scout leaders have responsibility of understanding the program they present and judging the scouts actions "fairly" within the published BSA program expectations. Gatekeeping carries a high burden of responsibility. Barry

This is a tough question because, as I know you know, learning patrol method takes time and practice. A SM has leverage because, well the SM is the boss. But anyone else has an uphill grind to not only sell it as "one" possible way of developing character, but also be able to show proof from results. And, as you also know, growth takes time and is generally subtle. First off, use simple words and stick to them like "patrol method" or "boy run". Personally I like boy run because Patrol Method is one of Eight Methods of scouting. You and I know the difference by how we use the term in a sentence. But it can be confusing to newer leaders. Boy Run is used by the BSA as scout independence, so it makes sense. Also, instead of talking about growth, Aims, goals or something else, use "character". Character is the term most people reference as growth in scouting. So, it require less explanation. "Boy Run" (independence) is the best way of developing "character" (turning boys into men) for this age of boys. Then be specific and simple with the words to define how boy run works toward develop character. Boys of this age learn more by thinking through a difficult decision than by following habits or adult directions. The best way to encourage boys this age to "actively think" through a struggle is to give responsibilities where they have to make decisions. Even small decisions like, "should I tuck in my shirt" is an active decision making process of right or wrong. The more we get the boys to make decisions, they more they have to balance and measure right and wrong. That is how character is developed. Each decision the adult makes for the scout deprives him of the practice for character growth. You can make you own examples that apply to your situations. But I found I needed to practice these explanations in my mind to shorten them so I did't loose my audience. What you are doing is begging for their trust to let you give scouts permission to screw up. BUT what parents struggle with is that making mistakes is a good thing in the troop. To most parents, wrong decisions implies bad boys. We see it on this forum everyday. Posters asking for advice to deal with scouts bad decisions. They don't see bad decisions as opportunites of character growth, they see it as boys behaving badly. You have to sell them that wrong decisions don't mean bad decisions or that boys are bad. Wrong decisions just show the scout where he needs to learn the skills to make right decisions. The more wrong decisions they make now, the more skills they learn for making right choices as an adult. And don't ask for everything all at once. Pick a few examples where the adults are too close to the scouts and ask them to give the boys room. And allow time for them to learn from what ever choices they make. That's at the top of my head anyway. It took me years to do what you are asking for one meeting. Barry

Eagle94 has been dealing with this problem, one way or another, for a couple years. My response is more in the light of the history of the his situation, not just this one situation. Your are correct that I should have responded more pointedly to this thread. Barry

I see Eagle94's situation as the result of a SM who doesn't understand patrol method and/or doesn't know how to teach patrol method to the adults. The SM of our troop requires all new parents to spend one to three meetings with the SM who shows them how the troop program works, and the adult roles in the program. They will get to observe a PLC meeting (the only time adults are allowed), patrol meetings, a SM Conference (with scout's permission), a BOR (with Scouts permission), and a tour of the troop storage by the GM. Also, any adults who plans to camp with the troop are REQUIRED to spend a campout with the SM to again observe the scouts program and how the adults' roles in that program (the SM does a lot of sitting around the campfire talking about his favorite subject, patrol method. A lot). I'm one of the few adults on this forum who doesn't assign busy work to parents just to keep them out of the way. I teach them the value of staying out of the scouts way and then let them make choices. They usually get it on the first campout. Barry

True, but there is a difference between a friendly practical joke and hazing. Sadly hazing has become a pop culture trigger word to imply hostile intent when in reality it was just the opposite. The intent of the person who acted is just as important as the response of the person who was on the other end. It is much easier to teach the values of the Oath and Law when intent of the actions are measure, as apposed to the method of the actions. Another example of using politically correct trigger words inappropriately is the BSA statement that holding a scout up-side-down during an awards ceremony was a form of hazing. National put that in the Guide to Safe Scouting Guide for pete sake for liability purposes. Rest assured it was the Cubs who were the most upset by the restriction. Have we as a culture come to a point where hostile threats are the only way to control behavior? That is not scouting, but I fear that is becoming the way of the BSA when that is the only way adult leaders react to scout behavior. Barry