Eagledad

Just an observation over the last 25 years. The more volunteers without a scouting experience, the more program quality suffers. I know that we don't really have control over it, but I've been harping for several years that program quality is a function of experienced volunteers. Which is a HUGE concern for me with the induction of girls. Barry

And don't forget the girls.

Peer pressure is a powerful motivator. Probably the most misused technique in the BSA for motivating scouts to change their behavior. You will be confronted with the force hundreds of times in your lifetime. You either develop the self confidence to ignore peer pressure, or you let it control you. I'm told girls like a good uniform. Barry

Absolutely! I grow tired of the rigid idealism that seems to hold these forum discussions hostage from outside-the-box ideas and suggestions. Troops in the real world have the freedom to use life experiences and creativity for dealing with the unusual and unexpected situations that challenge their program. It's one thing to use general principle as a compass for direction. It's something different to be held to the inflexible rails of idealistic theory. The direction I give to new scout leaders of new troops is very different from the direction given for mature experienced programs, and between. Barry

I agree. When we get tired of hiking up hill, we stop and rest. When we get tired of paddling in the wind, we keep paddling. Otherwise the wind would blow us back to where we started. Barry

Little hints and nudges are very powerful. But let's assume for a moment the scouts did come up with the idea on their own. Should a SM who doesn't agree with shuffling get involved with the scouts' decision? Why or why not? Barry

Really! The trend of the discussion appears just the opposite. I think the OP got very good responses. Barry

Yes, this is true. However, There are several boy scout camps that lead back packing groups for a week and age is not a requirement. Same goes for canoeing, we do a trip to Canada every other year and just rent our own equipment. We get better gear for less cost. You can hire a guide if you need one. And many of our scouts spent a month getting their scuba license so they could spend a week in Mexico diving every day. So don't let the lottery slow you down if you really want back country adventure. Barry

I was thinking about this subject the other day. We often read Wood Badgers say "I used to be a Bob White (or whatever critter), a good ol Bob White to". Wood Badgers always feel a special connection with their Wood Badge patrol. So why wouldn't scouts feel the same? Well. they do. As a youth, I was a Flaming Arrow. Nothing else, just a Flaming Arrow. It was a great patrol and I'm quite proud of being a part it. I have never understood reshuffling patrols. It defeats the purpose of what we are trying to accomplish with the patrol method. I guess you have experienced it, so you are sensitive to it. But it is a foreign concept to me. Barry

If a volunteer doesn't agree with the BSA program (Vision, Mission, Aims, Methods, Values and so on), there are other organizations that may welcome that volunteer's time. A committee just may have a concern when the SM is apprehensive about discussing the program. Why would a SM be apprehensive? And where else can a concerned parent calmly have a discussion with the SM than in the committee meeting? An internet forum? The committee is one of the best opportunities for a SM to educate his program to the parents of the scouts. If the SM can't explain the reasoning for why and how the program works to the parents of the troop, then there might be reason for concern. The committee has the power to insure the program is safe and operating under the guidelines of the BSA. Barry

When we switched to weekly PLC meetings, we allotted one hour before the Troop meeting started. But those meetings shortened to 20 minutes within few months because they become more efficient at each meeting. And they got a lot more done. Our SPL gets so good at running meetings that I would match many of them with my company managers. And it's not just an advantage for PLC meetings. Scouts learn by watching other scouts in action, the PLs learn how to run better patrol meetings from their experiences in the PLC meetings. The scouts in the patrols learn good meeting habits simply by watching the PLs. Like many here, we don't allow any adults in the PLC meetings without permission from the SPL. But I found that even the SM rarely needs to attend. Typically I only attended if the PLC needed to ask a question. The SPL calls me the night before to brief me on his agenda, so my attendance was rarely required. Barry

The committee is responsible for the SM guiding the program toward the vision and goals. They hire and fire SMs to fit their program. I have no problem with them asking questions or suggesting ideas. The OP never suggested committee members do the mentoring, in fact he said that was the role of the SM and ASMs. It is the responsibility of the SM to explain (justify) how the program they are working is reaching the goals. Personally I believe this keeps the SM accountable for how the program is being run. I had to explain myself many times as well as explain why the committee’s suggestions may or may not work. Same age patrols and NSPs are a couple examples. As for who mentors who, it really depends on how much the program is using the patrol method and the maturity of the youth leaders. 11 and 12 year old PLs need a lot more mentoring than 15 year olds. Who does that mentoring depends on the maturity of the older Scouts. Is a list ok? Maybe at the start, but eventually performance is measured by the qwazse method. We have to remember the objective of the mentor is to get the scout to where he doesn’t need a mentor. The more a scout grows, the less he should need the mentor. So scheduled meetings become a dreaded waste of time and annoyance. I believe the best mentoring is done passively. The mentor waits for the scout to seek guidance. Otherwise the scout may not be ready to learn and grow from the mentors wisdom. Mentoring is important to our program, but the goal is for most of the mentoring to be done by Scouts. I also believe that a scout can learn just about all he needs to learn in the program by simply observing the actions of the other Scouts. When a trend of behaviors are not being learned by observing, and thus require specific training, that is a red flag that something is wrong in the program and needs attention. So, to answer the OP, I would suggest the mentors should approach their role as mentoring future mentors. Not leaders. Barry

Our PLC met once a week for 30 minutes before each meeting. As they got used to it, the meetings typically ran 20 minutes. They got a lot more done than the long boring two hour monthly meeting. Barry

You have a very limited view of natural boy groups. How many times does a boy change groups a year? We know they change the gang of sport teams and school classes every year. Nobody seems upset about new classes and new teams. But join the boys scouts and all of sudden the gang is critical. If a team player only needs a few practices to become part of the team, why wouldn't a scout only need a few patrol meetings? Well the answer is they do. What is a natural boy group? It's simply a group of boys who want to belong in that group. Why adults think that can't happen in mixed age groups is mystery. Our families know before they join how our program works. The only time I can remember a family not happy is the one Webelos who was bullied by the rest of his den. His dad told me that his son would join our troop if none of his den mates were in his patrol. Not all gang members like the gang. I learned later is was three boys who were the bullies and they didn't last a year in our troop. Anyway, I like to get to the root of issues. We parents don't really care about who our son friends are so long as he is happy. At least in the context of this discussion. Remember they make new friends just about every year at the start of a new school year. No big deal, right. I found over the years that the average boy who joined our troop only wanted one friend, sometimes two, to be happy in the gang... patrol. And, they generally felt comfortable after three meetings. All our new scouts were told they could start their own patrol if they wanted, but it never happened. After watching a functioning patrol for a few weeks, they realize starting a new patrol is a lot more work than joining a functioning one. By the way, Webelos didn't join troops as dens like they do today. Boys joined as their age and requirements qualified them to join. Troops didn't have NSPs back then because they didn't get large enough groups. So boys were mixed into the patrols through the year. The NSP was created to work the problem of loosing so many first year scouts. But after 20 years with the NSP program, the percentage of first years losses are the same as before. Hmm, so maybe the gang thing wasn't the big problem. What is the problem. Well that is what MattR was addressing in his post of scouts not in the habit of making decisions. Barry

Sure, but that is not what you said. You implied that the adults had no say or responsibility toward vision and mission. Reality is the adults have ALL the responsibility of the vision and mission. So long as the SM stays within the BSA rules and guidelines of the program, the SM can empower as much of that responsibility on the scouts as they want. But the BSA has already done most of that for the SM with Aims and Methods. Sadly, you are so hung up on force feeding your definition of patrol method on us that you can't see the forest for the trees. Boy growth in the scouting program requires a relationship of scouts and adults working together toward specific experiences. Concepts set the direction toward the vision and mission without the rigid lines of personal interpretation. Once personal lines are drawn as right or wrong, the program becomes very small and limits creativity. Folks work better with concepts because they can use their own life experiences and knowledge to guide the program toward the same objective. Barry

Scouts have NO authority to set their program vision and goals. That authority is the BSA. The BSA stipulates exactly what the vision and goals are for all its members. Otherwise a SM would just make up goals for his own glorification. Just as important, the scouting program does not belong to the boys. The scouting program "is" the adults program specifically targeted to work toward the BSA Vision and Mission. If one does not agree with the BSA Vision and Mission and the guidelines toward achieving those objectives, one does not have to join (and should not join) the BSA. As long as the SM agrees with the BSA Vision and Mission, and stays within the BSA stipulated rules and guidelines, they can work toward the BSA Vision and Mission the best they know how. Barry

Yep, that predictable won't fly. But "purest sense"? Is there a purest sense? Or is there different success stories. Lots of success stories since the inception of Scouts. I can understand one bad experience swaying a mind, but how does that account for all the successes through the history scouting? Do it anyway you want, but don't discount successful programs based from one bad experience of your program. By the way, you posted many frustrations of your sons troop over the years, not just the one. Patrol method is giving scout the independence of making decisions for their own outcomes. How much independence to make decisions did his troop give him? Barry

Well at least you are allowing an evil ASM as part of the solution, you didn't use to do that. If the older scouts are taking over when the younger scouts have the authority, then the SM is doing it wrong. You could ask for ideas because we have some that will help. And younger scout learning to make decisions is very different than younger scouts put in leadership positions. I keep asking you stosh, if mixed age is so bad, how did the BSA and Greenbar Bill survive for 80 years. Different strokes for different folks. Some adults are mixed age kind of leaders, some work better with same age. Maturity comes when one understands there are many ways to achieve the same goal. I find enough challenge in helping leaders understand the basic concept of patrol method without having to debate details. Explaining the basic concept of patrol method is what the OP is asking. Demonizing those who are different says more about your style of leadership than theirs. I did both mixed age and same age and mixed age works better for me. I measure progress of the program by the growth the scouts gain from their experiences in the patrol. A lot of scoutmasters don't believe throwing new scouts into responsibilities beyond their maturity develops growth, so they do it differently than you with great success. Many boy run patrol method troops have great success with older scouts teaching, mentoring and being a companion. Not all discussions have black and white solutions. The forum should encourage ideas from which to choose. I grow tired of the us vs. them chest pounding dialogs. Barry

I'm putting on my Wood Badge Troop Guide ASM hat here (they approve all the Ticket Items). What is your objective with the clinic. Some adults set a goal of signing off a specific number or percentage of badges. I would send that ticket item back and remind the participant that they don't have control of what the scouts will do. On the other hand, if the goal is to provide the scouts and opportunity to earn a badge, then I would only ask for specifics. Putting on my SM hat, I want my scouts to develop habits of character and practice making decisions based from the oath and law. Advancement is the scouts responsibility, character is mine. How will your clinic develop character and provide decision making opportunities? There are two parts in my SM mind to the MB process: First. The scouts are supposed to find a mb counselor, contact the counselor to learn more about the badge, get some personal details like a phone number, arrange meeting times with the counselor, fill out the Blue Card with all the details and get the SM signature. That process forces the scout to think methodically to plan the process for working the mb. These are decision making opportunities that teach the scout how to work a process to complete a goal. During the process the scout practices communication with several adults that also forces a behavior of friendly, courteous and kind. You know, character type stuff. The second part of the badge is working the requirements. Believe it or not, that is the hardest part for young men of this age. They have not developed a discipline of completing process of which they started. I know of a mb counselor who told me that only 25% of scouts he starts will finish their badges without some push from parents or leaders. Scouts learn more from their failures than accomplishments. Your goal is to provide and opportunity for the scouts, NOT TO PUSH THEM TO FINISH. Just build a process of decision making opportunities. Allow them to choose success or failure. What I'm saying is set up your clinic so the scout has to first talk with the counselor, fill out the blue card then get it signed by the SM. Then allow the scout enough room that test his ability to complete the badge once he starts. Personally (Troop Guide ASM hat here), I don't care how many scouts complete the badge, I just want you to provide them with the opportunity to build character and practice making decisions. Do that and your ticket is done. So instead of pushing scouts to come your specific clinic, visit the units and ask the SPL for five minutes in front of the troop to inform them that you are providing a clinic on a set day. Leave some handouts for anyone interested to call you for more information like time and location. There, you provided the counselor and communication opportunity. During their call, inform them that you require a blue card the day of the clinic to participate in your clinic. That forces them to fill out the card and get the SM signature. You have basically followed the BSA Advancement guide. As a SM, you have made my day. Now, as for the instructors, that is more difficult. You want the scouts to make decisions, so make sure your activity station only provides information and the "opportunity" to participate. let the scouts choose to complete the requirement to "your" satisfaction, and them let them specifically ask to get the card signed off. I know this seems a bit silly to some degree, but you would be surprised how much maturity a scout gains by doing these simple actions and decisions. Allow scouts who don't complete the requirements a way of finishing at a later date. In other words, don't plan on being done by the end of the day. Have a way for a scout to call a year later to finish his badge. Some scouts need to grow and mature between the start and finish of badges. As to your Ticket Item, you want a specific end. That end would be closing the doors and the end of your clinic. Not signing off a minimum number of badges. Personally I think the hardest part of your ticket is visiting the units to ask the SPL for 5 minutes and telling the scouts about your clinic. But, I think you will also enjoy that part the most Hope I didn't go off the deep end here, but this is how I coached clinics. To be fair to you, some clinic organizers and Wood Badgers didn't like my recommendations. Barry

Yes, that is the struggle. The Camporee discussion highlighted to me how much different my patrol method experience was in the 70s compared to the scouting program the BSA is pushing today. Same age patrols alone have made a huge shift in how adults perceive the process of patrol method. Patrol method, boy run and scout led, weren't common terms when I was a scout because patrol method was the normal way of scouting in most troops. It's just how it was done. Part of having a successful patrol method program is giving the scouts enough independence that they feel motived to change some of their habits of how they make decisions. But most adults who were kids back then will agree that our parents gave us a lot more trust and independence than the culture of parents allow today. Helicopter parents today are the norm. Adult leaders in the 70s didn't struggle to let scouts make wrong decisions like parents today. So, as a result, boy run is defined in each troop more by the limitations of the adults' fear to let boys make decisions. From Nationals perspective, scout independence is directly related to the cost of liability. So, they aren't all the motivated to push patrol method very far. IMHO, restricting patrols from camping without adults was a liability cost decision. The process of a true patrol method program is difficult for adults today because they really don't want the stress of worry that comes from not controlling the actions of youth. We have become a culture of Helicopter Scout Leaders and we aren't really sure we want to change. Barry

I did exactly this after every SPL election. We added a few bits of information like summer camp dates or something, but most of the meeting was as you descried with a one page handout. All parents were required to attend. But after a couple years of these parents meetings, I think some parents....forgot about them. In my opinion, they couldn't explain Aim, Methods, or boy run, if I were to ask them later. But I think the meeting gave them the trust that we had goals for their sons and a plan or process for reaching those goals. Barry

So I'm curious, why would the scouts, of a SM who is cynical of camporees, even choose to attend one. Given the choice, I'd rather go fishing than participate in an unfair rigged competition. Barry

Agreed, and I'm quite sure your troop is good at not being adult run. But my point is that we each have our personal perception of what is boy run and what is adult run. Except for adults at camp, you and I are on the same page of scouting. As for the discussion of adults reliving their youth, most of those adults in my experience are adults who weren't scouts. Women as much as men. But, lets not confuse them with the adults who just haven't been weaned away from their natural knee-jerk parent reactions. Even the best of us need some practice to turn off the parent side of us when we are doing the scouting stuff. Barry

You missed your calling stosh, you could have made millions as a motivational speaker. Your solutions for a fair camporee are anti patrol method, or anti Greenbar bill patrol style. So in my mind, what's the point? The games aren't rigged, it's just that camporee style competition that was created during the mixed age patrol program doesn't fit for the same age patrol system of todays troop program. Camporees were started when patrols were balanced with different ages. If the participants were honest, the patrol competitions were not only fair, but very productive in developing character growth. MattR is pretty smart, so I expect he has the solutions and will provide us with the details of a successful camporee. But, I do respect his challenges. Barry

Weren't you the one arguing for adults to be restricted from leaving a summer camp. I guess one mans patrol method is another mans heavily involved adult troop. Maybe we are a generation of helicopter scout leaders and just don't know it. Barry