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Her argument is that is 3x the work. An ASM tried to explain to her that this is the process. This is how things get done. Cooking for 11 isn’t easy, or how it should be done.

That would be three separate menus/shopping/cooking/cleanup in our unit, so three patrols. 3 olders is enough for a "patrol."

Work for who? Is the SM (she?) doing ALL the work? Is she teaching COOKING MB? Is she doing the KP? Is the CChr doing all they can to keep the SM occupied and busy elsewhere? The SM's job is to sit back by the campfire and say "go ask your Patrol Leader" with appropriate aplomb and important harumf sounds....

Minor argument that is negotiable. One scout on a campout could be a patrol. We can all agree a patrol is a patrol. Regrouping into adhoc patrols or doing doing things at the troop level subverts the patrol system. When forming long-term patrols at troop meetings, two patrols is not good. Ideally, seven scouts is a good patrol size. ... BUT if on the campout, only one scout from that patrol goes on the campout, then that scout should be given the option to cook by themselves.

I just want to do a quick vent. Our scoutmaster doesn't get it. She keeps wanting the scouts to cook as a giant patrol for the Scouts and the leaders. She thinks it is too much work and KP for the patrols to cook separately. Ugh.

Awesome. I just wanted to get it out there. It feels better to be validated.

No Scout is going to starve in one weekend campout. Maybe three days, but not two.... And learning to cook is a three step process: 1) watch others cook (mom, dad, the Patrol Leader...) 2) trying it out yourself (when was the FIRST time you flipped a pancake successfully ?) 3) Finding out the cellophane and cardboard on the frozen pizza is NOT part of the ingredients,,,, .discovering that yes, you can cook Dinty Moore Stew in it's can, but you must OPEN IT first..... ... We will discuss hygiene and clean up next time....

It's hard to get past that sentence. We're not talking about rain or snow here. I've been in a lot of places where people didn't think I belonged and didn't want me there. I persevered and maybe that was character building but it also almost got me killed. I would not subject any youth under my care to such a thing today. Thankfully, we mostly don't have to because most youth organizations have moved beyond such backward ideas. There are plenty of things out there that can build character that don't have anything to do with a person's race, religion, orientation, or gender.

This is argument ad absurdum. In my years as an advisor I didn’t care how people felt about my venturers. (And some voiced fairly negative opinions.) I expected my youth to take it on the chin and press on. Those same people taught my scouts incredible skills. For that, they earned the right to voice any opinion they may have had. Needless to say, over time their opinions became more nuanced after working with my youth.

It is my understanding that yes it is. One would think they would keep the domain and just forward it to scouting.org forever. The lab coats aren't on scoutshop.org any longer. After I wrote the above, I realized that it used to be on beascout.org and isn't there. I used the waybackmachine to see that sometime between April 2022 and August, the option to search for STEM Scouts was removed.

I'm on board with the "vote with your feet" theory. Strong troops will have an incoming new scout patrol every year with a few active parents to offset the natural attrition of kids hitting high school or otherwise aging out of the program. A strong troop can survive a "weak class" of scouts and parents, but can be derailed if they onboard 2 or 3 consecutive weak classes. A low number of incoming Scouts vs. prior years doesn't necessarily translate to a weak class if the scouts are well-behaved and the parents are willing helpers. Rather, the pitfall comes when troops onboard multiple sco

All good responses so far. I apologize for not including this phrase in my prior reply as I feel it is very important; others have hinted at it in their responses. I believe that Scouting done well is evidence of the truth of this statement. Not eveything that counts is measureable, and not everything that is measureable counts. (paraphrase of a quote often attributed to Einstein)

Thinking a bit more about this thread, I think we are speaking of a variation of answers. Whose success are we perhaps trying to measure? The obvious answer appears to be the success of the youth. But we also can expand our discussion to the success of the adults who mentor the Scouts. And, we also then are reviewing the success of the program, which is variable, depending on the membership involved, and also the actual program in play. Each level and type of program and group may have different points of consideration, depending on how detailed we may choose to get. Ultimately though, w

We censor speech all the time in the BSA, we're supposed to. Certain kinds of speech are not allowed according to YPT policies. Speech that is intended to make youth feel unwelcome on the basis of gender, for example, is not tolerated. I personally have no particular issue with someone thinking that girls shouldn't be here. What I do have an issue with is what kicked off this thread to begin with, people taking it from thinking this stuff and progressing to saying it in settings with scouts and scouters encounter it. So circling back to yknot's comment, that people who hold the viewp

There's nothing stopping people from having these kinds of discussions here or anywhere. But if that's how someone feels about a certain class of kids and it contradicts the policies of the organization they work or volunteer for, they shouldn't be responsible for kids of that class. That's the conventional viewpoint, often reported on in the media, and I'm hardly saying anything as controversial or as pearl clutching as implied. BSA policy for the past six years is that girls are scouts. It's really not about the adults anymore, it's about the scouts.

Growth in individual scouts. Seeing a new scout who can barely tie their own shoes develop into a patrol leader who plans, and leads their patrol on an overnight camping trip with adults only as drivers and required YPT. And all the other iterations of similar growth.

No, it isn't. You have no idea who @fred8033 is. That account could be a Scouter, or it could be someone posing as a Scouter, or it could (these days) be a large language model chatbot posting. Or it could be one of my alter egos trolling you, and complete fiction.

It depends on the interpretation of threats. I believe that bringing in girls has created, well lets just say a less welcoming environment for boys. There have been several discussions over the years of how adults are pushing the girls program and performance over the boy's program. And there was even mention of how the differences between girls and boys put the boys at a disadvantage in this program. I stand for the fairness and safety of all the scouts. But, in these discussions, it is fairness and safety of the boys' side of scouts. I understand that emotions are powerful for forcing c

I prefer this version of Norman Rockwell's Freedom of Speech. Others may disagree, let them. Moderator awareness... IMMO*, some informative, robust yet scoutlike discussion here. Thank you. RS * In My Moderator Opinion

Ok. So we are raising moderator awareness for something that has not happened as part of silencing those who have different views? And raising red flags about in-person issues that have not happened? This whole discussion has devolved into nonsense.

... Ignoring the past ... 10 yeas ago it was clear what was plain wrong and members would have been silenced. ... Misrepresenting the complaint. ... I see no one advocating taking "actionable" steps against youth anywhere in this forum. We support all scouts and do it with a smile and friendship. Individuals people are not a policy issue. ... Changing the advocated request ... So is the action requested blocking discussion on this forum or blocking people taking actions that I've yet to see people say is happening. Earlier in this forum there was discussion of whether moderat

So you do agree that those who believe that the current membership policies are wrong do have the right to speak up. Then why are you upset when they do so? Can you show me the results of the membership (emphasis) survey that had the majority support current membership policies, because I have been looking for years. All I can find is the non-member results, which did not include any BSA identifiable markers. Also why would BSA exclude a major segment of their membership from the polls? If I can find the screen capture of the poll, if you were in the Western Region, and chartered to

Scouting is fundamentally about being a member of society. Civil discourse. Acting as part of a community. Discussion is core to scouting. That's not correct. This forum debated membership changes for as long as I've been a member. Both sides have been debated. At least a decade if not 15+ years. Ahhh. The value in one person's eyes justifies their crimes. The ends justify the means. So, it's okay for them to violate the Scout Law because they "believe" their beliefs justify breaking the agreement they signed when they agreed to be scout leaders? ... But, the

Agreeing to uphold the decisions and responsibilities doesn't mean silencing discussion and alternative thoughts. Aren't you advocating for a position that would have prevented BSA from ever moving toward including girls and other orientations 10 years ago? Silencing those leaders and those discussions would have shut down the policy changes. ... This really feels like hypocrisy.

Please remember, the folks who pushed for the membership changes internally by your logic should have removed themselves, or been removed by BSA long before the membership changes happened.

Disposing of those you disagree is wrong. Some call it censorship. I call it a form of sin. People are no more disposable for their beliefs than their sexual orientation. We all need to work together. I've always thought it should be obvious that there is a clear difference between forums like this where we discuss and exist for discussion. In-person working with youth and new leaders is different. That should be completely obvious. ... We as scouters should support all SCOUTS; period. I've seen that happen over and over again even when we disagree or question the situation. .

Absolutely, we tolerate those with those "views". What we do not tolerate is those who "act" against others in accordance with those views. What you are advocating is akin to being the "Thought Police." Not knowing the other specifics of the OP (that is, having only one version of the events), my pronouncement was simply that it was wrong of the person to use an open forum to vent his misgivings about membership policies. And, it was also a failure by the discussion moderators there to not steer that person into other territory. Zoom hosts can mute or boot anyone from a session.

There is a huge difference between not agreeing with a policy and passionately working with youth. I'm a firm believer that the Tiger Cub program is the cause of thousands of families dropping out of the BSA, but I found a way to raise our numbers. I believe education about the struggles from policy changes is healthy because it provides dialogue for ideas to approach and improve or fix the issue. Sad that so many folks feel that censure is the only way to stop discussions they don't like. Barry

Or Explorers. Barry

Change does takes time, sometimes decades. Especially those who have put in decades of blood, sweat, tears, time and treasure to the organizations. Trust me, I have seen what happens when they leave: no one fills the void. Just remember Venturing celebrated their 25th year last year, and people still call them venture scouts and venture crews, not Venturers and Venturing Crews.

One of the many reasons why my district and council are in trouble "old school Scouters" that left when membership changes occurred, and there was no one with the knowledge, skills, abilities, time, and treasure to take their place. They leaving left giants gaps that years later still have not been filled. Someone with 10, 20, 40, 60+ years experience in the program is extremely hard to replace. You got others who still disagree with the membership changes, and will tell you why they disagree with them. They remain involved for "their boys," and are slowly coming around.

I'm suggesting it's OK for adults to express reservations about membership changes online or in a Zoom meeting, provided it's done in a tactful manner. There is no need to "crack down" on them unless their comments target specific youth members or are deliberately hurtful. If you feel a youth in your area has been treated unfairly, by all means intervene on their behalf. Scouting would not exist in some communities today were it not for some of these "old school" scout leaders. Change takes time and I'm not sure you can get there by extinguishing dissent.

My apologies for not understanding This is a challenging time for young people. Politics and cultural extremisms are driving everyone to pick a side with no gray area. Life was simple when I was a scout, it was a little more complicated when I was leader, but nothing like now. My high school teacher son is very frustrated. He had a student commit suicide a few months ago. One of three in the past few years. The problem from his perspective is social media. Kids today get all their identity from social media and that puts them in a very volatile place to find themselves. One day socia

I'm curious, what is the latest traditional male gender role that is considered a threat? I'm one of those people who believe mixing females into the patrols puts the males at a disadvantage for personal growth, and possibly some harm by the adults. So, I struggle with the idea that girls are the ones at risk. I've seen way too much overhype on this forum to not be concerned for the boys. One poster was bragging just the other day about all the girl cubs on the podium after the derby races. What was the point of the statement? Were boys also on the podium? We don't know, but we can imagin

AwakeEnergy: I grant that your Pack clearly violated a Scout is Obedient. I remember learning something to the effect of "A Scout is obedient. A scout follows the rules of his family, school, troop, community, and country. If he deems a rule to be unfair or unjust, he tries to have them changed in orderly fashion rather than disobeying them." So, yes, your Pack violated Obedient--perhaps with sound rationale, but a violation nonetheless. Maybe we can add that to the list of the things the BSA should crack down on! I chose to emphasize Scout is Trustworthy because the ease at which people

A Scout is Trustworthy. Full stop. That's my agenda--I'm not being secretive about it. I love the tortured logic to arrive at your conclusion though.

One of the kindest, most mature, and friendliest of my scouts made his arguments about why BSA should not have included girls to me and, I later learned, to scouts of mixed sexes in a merit badge class being led by a female camp staff. Exactly which cudgel should I have had BSA reign down upon him? Meanwhile I have had to help multiple female scouts stand firm against proper sexual harassment from scouts (or sometimes verbal abuse from scouters). They don’t want anyone to get hurt, they don’t think they’ll be believed, they think they led on, or they think it’s part of the job. It’s

I really don't understand where these extremist comments are coming from? It's out there. ... Society has been debating major topics for decades and will continue to do so. The "who can hit who and for what" is mid-evil. I pray that's not the frame of mind brought to this forum. ... The topics now are balanced funding for both Women's Studies and Men's Studies departments. Inclusion of women on men's sports teams and inclusion of men on women's sports teams. Mandatory paternal parental leave. Bring your son to work day. Why are more women graduating college than men? ... There i

Do you go to school with them? Sports? Church? Vacation? Everyday life outside of Scouting? We have no mandate to impose our standard of care outside of the auspices of the BSA events where we are supervising Scouts. Should you choose to do so, best wishes in your endeavors. I think you have found a nice windmill, don Quixote. In the very limited contact I have with them, I seek to arm my Scouts with tools to deal with those situations, and launch them into the wide world to find their own way. It is very empowering for them, rather than looking to me to fight their battles.

Since you mentioned "Do I really spell out why that's contrary to the Scout Law?"... can you help me understand how a Pack "ignoring the separate dens by gender rule" isn't contrary to the Scout Law? Does that teach our Scouts that a Scout is Trustworthy? Ignoring rules that don't fit our agenda ("my scouts' ability to scout together") and then making reference to the Scout Law is rich.

The line for bullying and harassment is at the point where someone is addressing comments at youth, and you ask them to stop. When they don't, it crosses the line. If you just don't like what they are saying, or if their statements are general, and not directed at anyone specifically, it isn't bullying... it is just them being a horrible person. In a public forum, people have the freedom of speech. In a public forum, you have the right to not listen. The forum you spoke of in your OP was not a public forum. (And this is not a public forum either...) Could/should someone have

The sad thing with this is that historically, BSA has been very inclusive overall. They were far ahead in acceptance of other races, especially Blacks, though dealing with the larger society was a real challenge. Yet even in the South, there are historical proof that some found a way for them to be involved. Similarly, when the Gay issue hit the fan, the issue was forced on BSA from society, rather than BSA making it an issue. I still feel that the Dale fiasco was brought on by people outside the actual unit and it members. They were aware, but simply had not felt it worth worrying about.

IMHO, we are having a scoutlike, rational discussion here. There is more to discuss such as the ways to respond to misinformation and hate. Membership policy being set - what discretion do units and CO's currently have? Can a CO say only our congregation can be members? Can a troop still be single gender? If a policy is set, can a member can speak out against the policy without detriment to individuals. Censor and/or respond factually to online comments what is the BSA online policing policy on various platforms? I would very much like to hear Glen Pounder, BSA YP Executive, address

It is a continuing mystery to me why some cannot simply separate themselves mentally, and if possible physically from things that annoy them. We all hear the comment, "turn off the TV" on a fairly regular basis. That more or less is the same thing. IF it bothers you, separate as you can and then stay away as you choose. In most cases nobody is forcing you to do anything other than be in the same vicinity. JMHO of course.

Yes. A scoutlike and rational discussion please on all topics otherwise how will BSA policies and implementations improve and kids benefit. If there is a YP problem, it will not be tolerated. Settled? IMHO, membership policy is still evolving.

Such is the culture we find ourselves in. "Either you agree with me, or you will be neutralized and canceled." There is no longer room for civil discourse. I attribute it to the way those younger than us have been raised...never having been told "no" and rewarded for anything they do, noteworthy or not. Temper tantrums worked growing up...why not continue into adulthood?

We had a discussion along these lines some time ago in our unit committee/parent meeting... The parents of our Scouts support having a girl Troop, but there are not enough to sign up to create one (youth and adults alike.) If we were allowed to have a girl patrol, we would, just from the siblings who would like to be in the program.. And just like all of our other activities, we would have that patrol grow separately. Patrols make up a Troop... a Troop is not made of patrols. IMO, this mindset is critical to understanding the Patrol method, and how girls patrols would function

I guess it depends on what side of the fence one stands on where the haters are. Just look at the title of this discussion, The BSA should get tough on scouts and scouters? One fairly new scouter even suggested I be censored on a discussion of mixed genders. Seems some folks are willing to push hostility to a new level to get what they want. So, explain to me why I should encourage my grandkids to join the BSA in this hostile environment. The game has lost the purpose. Barry

I mostly agree. My fear is BSA does the best when it focuses on adventure and skills. Everything else is about natural learning. BSA sucks when it tries to force what should be naturally learned. Society is debating these bigger topics. I disagree with "start having the conversations", "promote education ... on gender equality" and "empower men and boys ... on gender equality". I fully believe in "creating a safe space" and "build the culture". I believe we can do that very effectively. The trouble with the first is that society is having huge debates still on these topics. If y

Just to clarify my thoughts on BSA membership policy. I disagree with it (among other things) and I will speak out - in a scoutlike way to bring about IMHO positive change for kids. In moving forward, I believe we can reach workable compromises if we can agree it is for the kids. That said, we have seen repeatedly where membership policy has changed before there was the necessary prerequisite education, facilities, and resources in place. Be prepared. ~RS