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Lot of good comments Summary is the BSA (SA??) has not fully defined what it is and what they do. When I joined way back when it was a game with a purpose, we had adventures, learned things, sampled many different hobbies and interests, and most importantly learned to work in groups and take care of ourselves. As we matured we went from follower to leader. Over the years the BSA strayed from that to want to become the swiss army knife of youth groups. We do everything. Also more focus on advancement and formal learning and less emphasis on experiential learning. 1/2 the required

To be honest, I think the program is too easy to get wrong and consequently scouts are not joining or are leaving because they're not having fun when they're younger or not being challenged when they're older. It's just that simple. Add to that the economy and work environment (always on) and the parents aren't having fun either. The program is confusing, contradictory and looks like it's been evolving over a hundred years in high level committee meetings. @Jameson76's comment that the BSA needs to focus on what the program is really rings true to me. If it's teamwork/ patrol method and

Hello from the U.K…. Been a wee while since I posted round here. Anyway I thought I’d swing by as I’m currently at scouts and it’s all gone a bit American! And I’m stood in a corner with not much to do with the PLs in danger of making me redundant. The scout program here while using the patrol system tends to use it as a way or organising a troop rather than the patrols being totally independent. At the moment however I have all 5 patrols doing their own thing having planned it all themselves. (Some looking a bit more organised than others but that’s teenagers for you) I’m in serious

But after 13 years of pushing this the membership numbers are still going down. What bad assumptions are they making? Maybe it's a bad assumption that just having scads of documents around will make it easy for parents to pick this up and do well. Have you ever wondered why so few parents are willing to volunteer for scouts? Is it really all their fault because they're lazy or is it too complicated on top of the fact that their work life is already insane. If summer camps can't get parents to show up unless they have wifi for checking into work then that's a hint there's a problem. I coac

It took a while, but I stopped letting overly demanding sports programs, and over the top coaches, get to me. I tried to make the youth understand that there are myriad choices in life, and making them is part of the "growing up" process. Ultimately, they need to choose, hopefully with focus and balance. Too many chose the overly demanding sports road, but with luck may have carried a small piece of the tenets of Scouting with them. A few, returned and refocused on Scouting. We never know. One of the good things about contact with the troop family over decades is that on occasion I see t

This thread is bumping with all of the controversial topics. I don't buy the stages of decline. Most of the changes are in line with the international scouting community (the name is more inline with international naming conventions, 173 of the 216 WOSM members are full coed at last count, shooting sports is heavily regulated in most countries, this seems like standardization not grasping for straws.). I've heard the moms discussion points, it's what BSA teaches the professional scouters to focus on. For some reason there is an emphasis on hooking moms on the value of the program and lit

I gave up referencing myself a while ago, so I won’t link to the thread that shows this data, but here goes anyway … while BSA was mulling over including girls in packs and troops (under the corporate double-speak “family scouting”), there was a WOSM census that revealed that membership declined in nearly every European country immediately after their scouting organization incorporated girls. Recovery to where they would have the same number of boys as they did before desegregation would take decades, if it has occurred yet at all. The UK took 25 years. So, if BSA is indeed about serving

We do (about) three meetings per month, with a short PLC after each. These build up to the outing. Then, the outing... The regular meeting night after an outing is a full PLC (so one per month), where they go over all stuff necessary. The other Scouts/parents get that night off to further recuperate from the outing. We have one day trip/service project per month... mostly an outdoor activity. So 4 meetings and two outings per month... 1/3 of our activities are aimed primarily at outdoors. We have the most successful Troop in the council. Most meetings (mid-spring through

See attached for the history of rank requirements. You can see the trend from simply... Cook for your patrol to getting meals approved against a budget following my plate. Just an example of how this becomes an issue... My nephew was denied his first class cooking completion because he went over his self estimated budget. The SM told him that staying within budget is part of the requirement.... Could you imagine better ways to kill motivation of a 12 year old then talking about food budgeting? I digress... Even through the 1990s, the rank requirements were almost exclusively outd

If worrying about there's alcohol and smoking, then our troop would cease to exist- we meet at an American Legion Post, where there is a bar open for members while we are meting in the room next door. Been that way for over 70 years. We're OK for meeting weekly under such conditions, but not to use a range once a year? I could absolutely see having a checklist and stipulations on what is required when using a sportsmens club versus a commercial range- namely, a fully certified instructor must be present. I've never experienced a sportsmens club that would be OK with a member drinking at t

I am grateful for the scouts I have reached. Whether they were only Cubs, if they joined the troop one year and left, or if they stayed long enough to earn Eagle. Everyone walks a different path. Everyone has lessons they need to learn. They all take something from the program, no matter how long they stay with it. The more you give to scouting, the more you get out of it. This is the right attitude. Realize that families are different, sports are different... There are lots more activities and stresses taking up kids' time than there was 20 years ago. We are not going to have as man

When our troop was 100 scouts strong, I would say 50 percent of those scouts were in sports and other outside activities that demanded some of their time. But, it was seasonal. I average troop meetings between September and December averaged about 60 scouts. 100 scouts January through March, then 60 to 80 scouts until June. We took 100 scouts to summer camp and then the cycle started over again. I agree that parents understand the value of the scouting experience better than their kids, but, I also think if the troop has a good (fun) program, the scouts will attend when they can. They w

We have faced some of the same challenges During visits (AOLs were off with the scouts as we meet in the woods behind the church) our leadership discussed with the parents the various outings (gorge trip, boating, kayaking, backpacking, biking, etc); youth led troop, servant leadership, Scouts camping away from leaders, etc etc. As I watched the parents and listened to the few questions, my comment as we huddled after...they are not buying what we're selling. They expect Cubs part 2 and we scare them. Programming for 11 year olds means the youth likely leave in a year or 2. Need to c

Another decision not mentioned in National Report, FleishmanHillard ($$$) which has previously worked with the BSA, was chosen as PR Agency of Record (AOR) in November 2023 with a focus on the rebrand. BSA Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) Michael Ramsey said his team is amplifying the organization’s message to reach youth and families across the country via national press releases and a social strategy that “leans hard into” Instagram and LinkedIn. “We have a lot of our leaders on LinkedIn,” said Ramsey. “But video is the backbone of a lot of the things we are doing. We are also lookin

I wonder if work culture has also had an impact on membership declines. Both of my parents had good, steady jobs with the same employer for 30+ years, but they rarely worked over 40 hours per week. Today, my wife and are always within 20 feet of our laptops. We log-in during off hours to get caught up or work ahead. At times, I wonder if this is really necessary since our jobs aren't that great; however, they are good enough where we don't want to lose them. I'm sorry to say the thought of taking kids camping for a full weekend sounds exhausting.

Probably trace this directly to Hawaii I think. No changes noted for archery.

So, instead of making a simple first class requirement like we had for the majority of BSA history like " On one overnight, serve as patrol cook & prepare breakfast, lunch, & dinner that require cooking." Instead we have the following: 2a. Help plan a menu for one of the above campouts that includes at least one breakfast, one lunch, and one dinner, and that requires cooking at leastt wo of the meals. Tell how the menu includes the foods from MyPlate or thec urrent USDA nutritional model and how it meets nutritional needs for thep lanned activity or campout. 2b. Using t

While some of the article is questionable, there are some truths. Trail Life does clearly define who they are, what they do, and what the benefit may be. One has the right to disagree with their messaging, but it is clear. BSA (SA??) has an extremely broad message about what they are. The current focus seems to be all things to all people. Not sure you can excite and entice people with that. There may be confusion in that all are welcome seems to mean BSA (SA??) will do / provide whatever you want in it's program. IMHO there is a Balkanization of what BSA (SA??) provides in that

That depends on the adult leadership. Far too many SM are not qualified outdoorsmen, so they don't know what they should be mentoring the PLC towards. Far too many SM are lazy. I'll pick on my troops SM; we never set up a dining fly to such a degree that the unit commissioner asked me about it; my response was something along "SM doesn't know how to do it, and his ego is so big he can't be helped". This is sort of what is supposed to be happening if you take the time to read all of the literature from national. When you read all of the adult guides, the program features guides, the fie

Lilliann ‘Lilly’ Markowitz has earned the Gold Award in Girl Scouts, Eagle Scout in Boy Scouts and Chief Petty Officer in Sea Cadets (US Navy program not Sea Scouts). She is believed to be the only "Chief Golden Eagle". More at source, impressive: https://themadisonrecord.com/2024/05/15/lilliann-markowitz-achieves-top-rank-in-girl-scouts-boy-scouts-and-sea-cadets/ Scout Salute, Well Done.

Also factor in impact to unit planning. If your council is different than ours, God bless. I can look at our council calendar today for August-December, and there are no dates for camporee listed. I can see OA weekend dates and NYLT weekend dates. Our unit is not unlike many around us, that planning meeting with PLC will take place before the end of July. If we don't have event dates to consider, then those events are not going to be considered. We will give deflection to not plan our weekend for one of the months there is an OA weekend for those who wish to attend that, but we aren't going to

LOL, thought you were talking about council/district events. Training is another matter... (Even so, training is not a unit mandated thing... those are mandates on individuals.) Disagree Sure, but if a PLC decides they do not wish to participate in these events, you should support their decision. For example, our Scouts choose not to go to many of these events because they are tired of WINNING!! For most competitions, it isn't even close. It just isn't fun for them to whoop everyone's behind. So, they only attend these things about once every three years. And we adul

This has always been the situation during my time in scouting. What might be a little surprising is that even some two-parent families look for programs with male role modes to help develop their sons. I'm not sure if the reason is because the culture is anti-male and they are looking for reinforcement of masculine behavior, or the father is out of the picture a lot from work. But our troop had several scouts in that situation. Looking at this further, I wouldn't be surprised that families would be looking for the experiences for their daughters since the evidence also shows that girls s

I find parents understand the merits of scouting. It's the kids who have trouble grasping it. Sports are fun. They can run around on a field everyday after school, again and again. It's an everyday commitment for a season. If they want to keep up and get ahead, they are encouraged to join offseason programs, another everyday commitment. After you factor in school commitment, then they are practicing/playing sports every day, they are not left much time for other endeavors. Scouting is different. We only meet once a week and have an outing once a month. The rest of the time they are supposed to

It would be interesting to see this as a percentage of children. I'm not sure what that looks like, but I think it was on the order of 25%.

BSA can follow a pretty wide lane and be “in line” as far as WOSM is concerned. The largest or fastest-growing WOSM programs have been sex-segregated. In many of these countries the Guides and Scouts collaborate nicely. So, to really fall in line, BSA and GS/USA would “play nice” together, and that ain’t happening. I think we in the U.S. are faced with an influx of citizens like no other country, and many parents from Europe and South America may envision scouting as co-ed because that’s all they’ve known since childhood. On the other hand parents from India, Indonesia, and Gulf states on

Scouting must be able to operate along with sports ... our Troop always has; however, there are limitations. It is tough to form solid patrols if kids are absent every weekend all year. The only benefit of the increasing cost of scouting is I see fewer scouts who have low participation rates. One of our ASMs brought up a good point. From what she has seen (two kids both high school grads), sports picks up a lot during middle school, but drops (for many kids) early in High School. I've seen the same ... many kids & parents drop sports Freshman year as school gets more challenging a

After the whole Hawaii thing how did we not see something happening? I don't think this is that big of a deal. Sure name change, but, we still have shooting sports. We're a very broad topic youth organization, not a shooting sports organization. The reduction in options is not that big of a deal, if a scout really likes shooting, and wants to get into different styles, different calibers, super serious with reloading etc ... why can't they go shoot clays on Tuesday night at their gun club, and roll into their troop meetings on Wednesday at the local church?

There are a lot of possible "shooting" sports, some not so sporty, some just humor. Shooting marbles, shooting pool, shooting baskets, and maybe even shooting mouths. They all still have rules of sorts, though too often ignored in the broader world. I suppose I just shot myself in the foot, as I am going too far afield. 😇

Your camps have wifi? LOL Seriously, wifi in the past has been a serious concern. There is one camp the troop likes that has extremely pour internet, to the point where their office staff will take turns driving into town to use the local McDonald's wifi.

I just did a crossover with our primary feeder pack. The pack has 90 scouts. Roughly 20 Lions, 20 Tigers, 20 Wolves, 15 Bears, 10 Webelos and 5 AOL. Of the 5 AOL only 1 wants to continue in Scouts. That 1 only joined Cub Scouts this year.... I talked with the other 4 parents. - They are looking to reduce activities after 5th grade - All are planning to increase their kids involvement in travel sports.... So no time left for scouts

Well said though though I can easily flex on the "provider" view. I know many very feminine women who have strong professional careers earning good money and I know many very masculine men who daily wash dishes, do laundry, vacuum and bathe their kids. I agree though that we scare too many of our young men away from being masculine.

I would say that, here in the US today, a "man embracing the traditional 'provider' role" leads to many fathers who aren't present in their child's life - so many people have to work really long hours, whether that is actually working or with a 2-hour commute each way, that they barely see their kids, and they can't rock the boat because their health insurance is tied to keeping that job, or the mortgage/rent they have to pay is so high they can't move to a job with a better work/life balance ...

Also not sure about this heading: Preparing Young People for Lives of Purpose and Impact Seems a bit vague and non definitive, more feel good than actionable.

Fascinating graph. It explains a lot. The rise in scouts was tied to the baby boom a lot more than I realized. I joined in 1971, which was both about the peak and near the end of the baby boom. I don't know what happened in 86 but there was a big bump in cub scouts but no change boy scouts. The other thing I noticed is the connection to the family savings rate and this graph. Nobody even measured it before 1950 because it was so low, but then there was a huge surge in the 60's and a drop off mid to late 70's that has been going down since. Maybe I'm seeing what I want but the lesson to me

They aren't safer... but they have insurance coverage 😜 It's all about the money, brother... Yes... our local fish and game clubs are some of the strongest supporters of our Range and Target Activities (RTA). And they adhere to all range operation restrictions of the BSA. Do those all go away? Seems like it from this pronouncement. Bet the fundraisers will still go... they'll just be adult only. It's all about the money, brother... Dollars to doughnuts the HABs get exempted from this. It's all about the money, brother...

I am not that worried about a DBA, or Trademark name. I am also not concerned about co-ed troops. I understand the concerns that some have expressed. However, if the Patrol Method and Scout-Led is done correctly, I see those as the mitigating factor for all the concerns. For example, one concern was that some boys want to be separate from the girls; to do their own thing without having to worry about primping etc... Then the Patrol Method and Scout Led is the solution. In a Scout Led, Patrol Method troop, the scouts choose their own patrols so these boys can choose to be all together as a

Agreed. I do not know the settlement of the wrongful death suit (August, 2023) against Aloha Council/BSA. Some random concerns I do not understand why "commercial ranges" are assumed safer than member-only sportsmen clubs (prohibited?) or more cooperative with an outside group program. This will likely end Council relationships with local, non-commercial sportsmen club which not only teach firearm safety and marksmanship but often host Klondike Derbies and scout fundraising events (turkey shoots, clay-breaking). The Marksman Experience at Bechtel will have to drop high-po

There will be a good case study applying the "how the mighty fall" stages to the BSA. https://www.clevelandconsultinggroup.com/articles/how-the-mighty-fall-why-some-companies-never-give-in.php

2022 Report Cubs - 580,194 Scouts - 415,564 Venturing and Sea Scouts - 15,400 Explorers - 30,870 TOTAL - 1,042,028 2023 Report Cubs - 574,365 (-1.0%) Scouts - 392,275 (-5.6%) Venturing and Sea Scouts - 14,961 (-2.9%) Explorers - 33,445 (8.3%) TOTAL - 1,015,046 (-2.6%)

To acquire Venturers in any significant number, the registration fee will have to be less than the cost of a pizza and a movie. While we’re rumoring, scuttle but says there are co-Ed troops being piloted. But even on an informal basis this is happening. I was manning a station at spring Camporee and saw several patrols of mixed sexes. One or two may have bee ad hoc, but a couple operated well enough that I figured they weren’t segregated OPO.

Youth sports dwarf scouting. Around 80% of kids ages 5-18 each year are enrolled in sports and prefer their chosen sports to scouts. Scouting currently involves only about 1%-2% of the kid population. That reality means there is no point in comparing scouts to sports, yet a lot of energy and attention in scouting is spent on blaming sports -- as if sports is the reason more kids don't do scouts. There are few kids today who, after a day of near inactivity in school, want to sit around in den or troop meetings for another hour or two of "being good". In an outdoor youth program, leaders shoul

BSA has evaluations. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/Shooting Sports/430-065_WB.pdf

Depends. Are the units getting value from the out of council fees? If paying an extra $25-$35 gives the Scouts a better experience, yes it is worth it. I can tell you I have been to some camps that until major improvements in staffing occur, we will not go there.

A lot of good points, though I think I want to die on this sporting hill. I think a lot of parents pull their kids from scouting to do sports thinking their kid is something special athletically. I had a meeting with a parent at the troop last night, she raised concern that we're losing a PL for the summer to some club baseball team and he might not come back. I told her it's not likely to work out for the kid; he's in 8th grade, he's like only 5ft tall, 90lbs soaking wet, both parents are sub 6fters and fat. Really what it might be is that scouting is too nice; I deal with some of these coach

Interesting article, but it is five years old. On the other hand it reinforces what I have said from the start; that allowing girls is a good thing, and the issues the so called experts raise are pretty much non starters for most of the youth. As always, the adults cause the most waves. The likelihood of coed is almost a reality, and it will in time be just the norm, though a few specific troops likely will still remain.

Just 5 years ago there were more cub scouts than there are scouts in ALL BSA programs now. With those cub scout numbers there is no turnaround in sight. The program isn't selling--we're seeing decisions that reek of desperation. Abandoning the historic brand won't reverse those numbers. The BSA is progressing....... through the stages of organizational decline.

I think that changing the name to appease simpletons isn't a good solution, but it seems to be the way the BSA wants to go anyway. Rather than expect people to be critical thinkers and rise up to the organization's level, it will come down to meet them. We saw this with the elimination of the Bobcat badge. Simpletons were confused so the solution was to destroy a legacy rather than insist that people take time to learn and understand. To me, the BSA has been the only constant in my life. My parents divorced when I was young, so neither was in my life 100% of the time. We moved around

I see this idea often, not just from @HICO_Eagle “The BSA would have done something if only the abused kid would testify.” First, that’s pretty classic blame the victim. Second, in my case in the 90’s, an ASM did raise concerns and was told it was fine and the YP rules were being followed. After several years of abuse I did testify, on my own with the support of my family and zippo from BSA. So it’s always frustrating to read that because in the instance I know, the exact opposite happened. I doubt I’m one in a 100 thousand. On balance wouldn’t it have been much much bette