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more rules for eagle projects+

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Seriously, you need to be 14 to use "Wheel cart (1-, 2-, or 4-wheeled)" So I guess the little red rider wagons that my not yet Tiger has used the past two years to help with the pack's service project can no longer be used since he's not 14.



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You guys have GOT to follow these links and read this insanity. Here are two more direct links:


http://www.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-028.pdf for the tool non-usage chart, and


http://www.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-027.pdf for the service project over-analyzer.



16 to use a leaf blower? 18 for a scroll saw?


This is nuts.


Where's RichardB? Isn't this his department?



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Yes this is ridiculous. Why are we following OSHA rules when we are a VOLUNTEER organization?


So you need steel toe boots, helmet gloves, ad nauseum to use hand tools like rakes, shovels, hammers etc.?


So those under 14 cannot use wheelbarrows, gardening carts, or Radio Flyer red wagons.


So those under 16 cannot use leafblowers, lawnmowers, edgers and trimmers.


No wonder teenagers are having problems finding jobs. Why would anyone hire them for traditional summer jobs, when they cannot do anything at all because of OSHA rules.

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By adding "appropriate" as a modifier, there are no clear standards for protective equipment, but it sounds like there is a concern for "safety." Any decisions made locally are subject to institutionalized second-guessing. Pretty cynical.


Citing O.S.H.A. without actually saying B.S.A. has elected to voluntarily adopt O.S.H.A. is equally cynical.


Or inept.


Likely inept.



Couldn't lead a panic if the End of the World were announced.

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http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/Guidelines_Policies.aspx is a landing page you might bookmark.


Actually, it's really interesting to go back into the archives here and read the past discussions on the topic. As to what constitues legal, moral and ethical in your state (to the reply about why teenagers can't find jobs doing certain things) you might want to review www.youthrules.gov or search the DOL.gov or FLSA and youth.




PS: This does not add any requirements to an eagle project.

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Thanks RichardB.. I do think the wheelbarrow or little red wagon thing is a bit excessive..


I see some rational to the power tools when you don't know the skills of the supervising adults, but would think another on-line video for supervising power tool operation, that is required of an adult leader in attendence for events with power tools could have solved some of that..

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Wrong turn.


Observe what tools boys are safely using around the home, farm, school, FIRST robotics and some of the cool things they are doing. When we tell a scout the BSA will not permit him to use the tools that he can demonstrate safe and proficient mastery, we become less than we were and likely LOSE that scout!


At 14, my son has safely already used all those tools banned (except wood chipper). He even worked up a 20' ladder to help old RS install gutters and paint. Shocking? All stuff I did back at 15, except with less safe gear. Oops, he has already used a lathe which I did not until later. Yeah had to think SAFETY - am I safe, is the tool safe, what happens if I slip, are the blades sharp,...


My Cubs use my drill press to polish PWD axles and my band and scroll saw to safely cut car outlines and I was right there with them. Cool stuff.


I saw that a pocketknife was listed as okay but there is no mention of an ax. Maybe the Committee is still deliberating that one. BP must be spinning.


Our job as adult leaders is to teach kids how to safely use tools not shelter them from tools.


My $0.02

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Yah, hmmmm...


I thought this was a joke at first.


I'm not often flabbergasted, but I confess I'm left a bit speechless. Wheelbarrows and paint rollers?


This might become da best example I have seen of how a support group like Risk Management can co-opt and undermine da mission of an organization.


One of da things yeh have to understand about attorneys is that their furry lot (or scaly lot for da sharks ;) ) are honor-bound to provide yeh with the best legal advice. In a similar way, the Risk Management folks are trained to provide the best risk management advice. Da thing of it is, the best legal advice is not the best business advice, or the best communication/PR advice. The best risk management advice is often too expensive in time or impact on da mission. In each case, someone with authority in the organization has to say "thank you for your input, but no, we're goin' to do this anyway because it's the right thing to do for our business and mission."


What yeh see goin' on here is that H&S/RM is inserting itself into the various program divisions and runnin' roughshod over 'em. Good attorneys and risk management folks know when to step back or quietly signal that this is an area where a business decision may be more appropriate. They stay in their service and support role. Poor ones like da control or sense of authority and step too far into areas where they don't have expertise.


This current work is da hallmark of poor ones.


Sorry, RichardB. Gotta call it like I see it. If it was a young fellow in my shop, I'd pull him aside and have a mentoring conversation about the difference between providin' advice and runnin' a corporation.


Simply copyin' da DOL / OSHA stuff also strikes me as bein' amateurish and lazy, quite frankly. Anyone in da field knows what Pappadaddy just described - that we're an educational program, and the rules about child labor have not a lick of bearing on our work. The legislature was very clear in passin' those laws to limit their scope, and as such they clearly don't establish a standard of care in our industry. They're naught but a red herring, and you know that.


Similarly, the notion that yeh don't have the ability to vet the skill and experience of volunteers workin' with kids is true about everything, eh? It's true about swimming and hiking and climbing and camping and counseling kids and skiing and sledding and skating and woods tools and... and... and... If we're goin' to start restricting ordinary things (mowing lawns??) in the BSA because the BSA is a volunteer organization then we're done for. That's the nature of a volunteer organization, and I reckon we've done just fine teachin' kids how to use tools for 100 years.


Yep. Flabbergasted. If I were your supervisor, we'd be havin' a "Come to Beavah" meetin' right about now.




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Let's not be bashing OSHA here - the document only mentions OSHA in reference to fall protection guidelines, not to any other part of the document.


The way I read that is that the BSA has developed the guidelines for all the other stuff, like not being able to use a Radio Flyer (aka 4 wheel cart) if you're under the age of 14, and is using OSHA's fall protection standards rather than making up their own (and given the ridiculous BSA (not OSHA)rule against using a "4-wheel cart" (aka wagon) if you're under 14, I don't think any of us really wants the BSA to develop their own fall protection standards).


I was initially surprised that they didn't cite OSHA on the excavation guidelines until it occurred to me that they are pretty much youth AND adults from working in any kind of excavations that would fall under excavation standards anyway so why bother mentioning OSHA.


I can't wait until a bunch of 13-15 year old Eagle candidates start using this list to tell their parents they can't mow the lawn anymore because the BSA say's it isn't safe for them to do so.

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While noted already that the protective gear is not specified for the most part, but is just a list, it still lends the idea to some that you MUST use ALL these things. Not well presented, for sure. As far as tools and so on goes, they are basically suggesting that volunteer leadership does not have the brains of a rock, so are incapable of making judgement decisions about safety. They also are simply adding to the fears already being instilled into kids today, thus making them even less adventurous or willing to try anything new.


In this case, I would agree with Kudu, in that standards from the 20's would fit for the most part. Then we expected boys to be able to do "adult" work by the time they were 10 or 11, and even younger when working on farms and so on.


Seems to me that the fear of litigation is smothering the purpose of the program. I suppose if someone were to get hurt using a four wheeled wagon, then BSA could point to this list and say they are not liable, as they had rules in effect that were not followed. I must admit that I can see how wheel barrows could be an issue with smaller boys, bad terrain, and heavy material; but mostly just losing the load. Proper supervision would put large enough people on them, as necessary, and not allow kids playing on/in them.


Hopefully we might see a reevaluation of the overkill here, and a recention of the current foolishness, and a realistic guideline later.


Meanwhile, I wonder how the older boys are going to feel when told they have to be the ones doing all the heavy work, even with wagons. At our camp, they have wagons and carts to move troop equipment from the parking lot.

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As a Risk Manager and Health and Safety professional myself I have to agree with Beavah's assessment of our role in an organization. Our job is to provide advice and recommendations to decision makers that need to make decisions based on all criteria combined, not just safety. All activity comes with some degree of risk and we need to manage the risk appropriately, not totally avoid it.


On the other hand I have worked with too many "decision makers" that really don't want the responsibility of making decisions and often defer to technical specialists and then blame them for the decisions. i.e. "the Legal Department won't let us, ...the Safety Manager says we can't."


Ultimately the decisions about what's appropriate and what isn't is upto the program people not the risk managers. If there's a beef with program limitations it's with the program folks that agreed to this nonsense. I would like to see the accident statistics that support the kind of risk limitations outline in the recommendations. Just how many Cub Scouts have been injured pulling wagons in the last 10 years? Young Boy Scouts injured using a paint roller or electric screwdriver?


I don't see how one can sell a program to young men as "adventurous" with these kinds of limitations. As Beav noted, national has no more ability to assess an adult leader's proficiency with an electric drill or lawn mower than they do a leader's ability to oversee backpacking or even simple hiking trips.


Let the Parlour games begin.


Ironically the top grossing movie the last few weeks has as it's premise teenagers fighting to the death. Good thing it's fiction because our scouts will be in no position of compete.





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