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more rules for eagle projects+

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I find it hard to believe that anything but a small minority of scouters would see the wisdom in many of these restrictions -- little red wagons and paint rollers?


You put us in a difficult position, scouts are going to want to undertake these activities, we believe they can safely conduct them, but we will be forced to tell scouts they cannot conduct them -- not because we think they're dangerous but because a bureaucracy has provided that dictate to us.


When I teach my scouts rules about safety, like the buddy system, safe swim, safety afloat, etc. I don't teach them as rules but as wisdom, because I don't want them following them just on scout activities or just because I say they have to, I want them following them when I'm not there and when they're not part of an organized activity that requires that behavior. But when we have to enforce rules, under the guise of safety, that don't make sense to us, it undermines the credibility of those other lessons. Kids, everyone really, extrapolate lessons from one thing and applies those lessons to others activities. So if I tell my scouts it's safe for a 12 year old to cut the grass at my house, or at their house, but not safe to cut the grass at Church they will logically question whether the other safety rules I'm trying to instill in them are equally silly, and we'll be undermining the wisdom we are trying hard to instill in them.


So why not try to convince us, and I don't mean just those of us on this forum but volunteers across the scouting community. We're all adults, a lot of us have college and advanced degrees, a lot of us have to make decisions of this level of difficulty and complexity in our daily lives and professional careers. We all have to make these types of decisions about our own families. So convince us. Show us the data you have: peer reviewed, journal published data that says a 13 year old can't normally be expected to safely use an electric screw driver, a wheel barrow, or a paint roller on a stick. And you can't just fall back and say OSHA says so; OSHA may have some science behind their rules, but they are applying that to a paid workforce and answering a diffefrent set of questions with different criteria then a scout project.


If you're right we should be easily convinced, but it would be the worst kind of arrogance to think we just couldn't understand what you understand.

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"BP must be spinning."


Baden-Powell is spinning because "Eagle Projects" have nothing to do with B-P's goal: The absolute mastery of Scoutcraft.


Currently, the requirements for "Scouting's highest rank" allow any cupcake "leadership" expert to earn Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back.


Simple solution: Eagle Projects should be based on OUTDOOR leadership.


Baden-Powell's version of an "Eagle Project" is to plan a 50 mile "Expedition" by land or water (200 miles by horseback)...


...to be undertaken without any "adult association" helicopters, of course :)


"An expedition on foot will cover at least 50 miles in wild country. The 3 nights will be spent at different campsites.


"An expedition by water will cover at least 50 miles and the log will cover such points as the state of the river, conditions of banks, obstructions to navigation etc.


"An expedition on Horseback will cover at least 200 miles. In wild country, camping at 3 different camp sites.


"An expedition, whether on foot or otherwise, must be a test of determination, courage, physical endurance and a high degree of co-operation among those taking part."


See "King's Scout (Senior Explorer Badge)":




I'm sure that would keep RichardB busy for a while :)


Yours at 300 feet,




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OK. Another day; another chance to read. They are "recommendations," not requirements or rules: "recommendations on the chart below."



EXCEPT, that last paragraph ("Youth or adults are not permitted . . ." etc.)



Still -- what? - lazy (good word.) Still, I think, for appearance sake to ward off the plaintiff's bar..

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That you Kudu.


I will steer my boys into that direction--if we can!


Meanwhile I will have to clean up the bits of skull and brain matter from when my head exploded after reading the links. This is a joke, correct?


For goodness sake we had 12 year olds finishing up the Plumbing Badge soldering copper pipe with a blinking propane torch, man!


Maybe next they will start culling all the Merit Badges for safety guidelines. "Sorry Timmy you are not old enough to use a paint roller yet so you need to put off the Painting MB. No rollers!


Yet the recent Scouter magazine had scouts on Jetski's.

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If we judge by what BP in fact said repeatedly, it is difficult to see that "absolute mastery of Scoutcraft" was the goal or the method. In fact, BP warned against such thinking:


"The examination for Badges is not competitive, but just a test for the individual. The Scoutmaster and the examiner must therefore work in close harmony, judging each individual case on its merits, and discriminating where to be generous and where to tighten up.


Some are inclined to insist that their Scouts should be first-rate before they can get a Badge. That is very right, in theory; you get a few boys pretty proficient in this way- but our object is to get all the boys interested. The

Scoutmaster who puts his boys at an easy fence to begin with will find them jumping with confidence and keenness, whereas if he gives them an upstanding stone wall to begin, it makes them shy of leaping at all.


. . .


There is always the danger of Badge-hunting supplanting Badge-earning. Our aim is to make boys into smiling, sensible, self-effacing, hardworking citizens, instead of showy, self-indulgent boys. The Scoutmaster must be on the alert to check Badge-hunting and to realize which is the Badge-hunter and which is the keen and earnest worker. Thus the success of the Badge System depends very largely on the Scoutmaster himself and his individual handling of it."



"Moreover, there is only one standard by which a boy is judged as qualified for a badge, and that is the amount of effort he puts into his work."



Further, as BP expressly and repeatedly said that the purpose of Scouting was to develop good citizens, it is difficult to see that absolute mastery of Scoutcraft was more than an aspirational side-effect.


"Scouting is a game for boys, under the leadership of boys, in which elder brothers can give their younger brothers healthy environment and encourage them to healthy activities such as will help them to develop citizenship."


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I hope the good folks from national didn't notice all of the Jamboree troops pulling their four wheeled carts back and forth to the commisary for their food draws.


Of course, we never allowed anyone under 14 to pick up a food draw. ;)

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the link in the 1st post just send you to the merit badge.net location.

where 2 links from scouting.org are located.


http://www.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-028.pdf for the tool non-usage chart, and


http://www.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-027.pdf for the service project over-analyzer.


Our OA chapter is building stove boxes Thursday night to hold stoves that NYLT uses so the stoves don't get so beat up. OA scouts were asked to bring electric drills and if anyone had a circular saw and things like that. I put my hand firmly over my mouth.


I can not in good conscience share the info in that bsa scout.org spreadsheet with the troop at circle up time. When council or district pulls this info out and pushes it, then so be it, but I'm not going to be the one to share the craziness. Instead I will do the 2nd half of the definition of obedient. Not the follow the rules part, but to work to change rules you do not agree with part. so I will share it with the adults and suggest they all contact national to complain about the absurdity of it all.


I am interested in how a scout can do plumbing, painting, or woodworking if they don't use tools. or are we set at only those over 18 can use power tools? cause that's what it looks like.


Scouting is about building, doing, making things. If you look at the hundreds of thousands of service hours, most including tool useage where nobody is seriously harmed the risk ratio to benefit seems to be extremely low.

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At our Troop if a boy needs to use a 4'-2" step ladder to get something we go get an ASM-but only one trained in the "the 12 laws of safe stepladders".


I wonder how those boys in the UK do all those Monkey bridges and towers--the carnage must be incredible.They must have stories like:


"3 Swindon Scouts injured in runaway paint roller tragedy"

"Proud Rover allowed to use big-boy ladder now"

"Queen's Scout designs ultra-safe 5 wheeled wagon for American scout use."

"13 year old London scout lost in post-hole digger horror."


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I know this is all about "work" and all but heaven help us...save the cub scouts from:


CUBMOBILE pileups ...Bear Elective 7.a

ELECTRIC repair...Bear Elective 17.a

WHEEL AND AXLE...even shows a wheelbarrow if I'm not mistaken, Wolf Elective 8.b




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