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Warning Label on a Hand Held Hair drier.....


"Warning, do not use this on a wet Bobcat"


How many here remeber the thread that was going around here about a year back debating if BSA's rules and regulations were taking the fun out of scouting and introducing un-needed hassle for Scouters, that the rules were taking some of the fun out of scouting and similar topics. I think this situation on this thread supposts those of us who feel....Yes...BSA is doing harm to the program in the ways mentioned by total nonsense such as these tool rules.


Anyone car to guess when camping will be forbidden as the risk to animal and bug bite,s drwoning, sunburn, burning oneself on a cookstove rc are too dangerous and now banned activities. We'll have to use powerpoint type learning interfaces as one risks paper cuts when using an actual Scout Handbook.

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I just got caught up with this thread. Holy crap. I am in awe at Irving's ability to make itself a laughingstock of its volunteers. Just ... Wow. Great job.


This discussion also unfortunately highlights someone's inability to craft a coherent internal communications strategy. When the BSA's risk guru refuses to answer some simple, point-blank questions, and instead issues bizarre, confusing, elliptical statements, that's a problem. RichardB, I respect your willingness to come here and post, but if you can't stop being defensive and coming across as arrogant, you're doing yourself no good at all.

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Only liquid and gaseous (at room temperature) fuels are considered chemical fuels. Solid (at room temperature) fuels are not considered chemical fuels.


Oh, good. So I can still cook things with my block of magnesium! :)


What's interestin' here is that we have achieved da forum equivalent of drawing into an inside straight, eh? We have unanimity of opinion here among people who would at least play devil's advocate on the other side over just about any scouting topic.


RichardB, if anything, I reckon that's somethin' worth taking note of and paying heed to.



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"Oh, good. So I can still cook things with my block of magnesium!




How do you light and contain it? What size Class D Fire Extinguisher do you pack in with it?




PS: Thermite welding was part of my former life. Amazing process.


PSS: Et al, sorry I won't meet your expectations on specifics. I did offer "Some hypothetical illustrations and hopefully they will help expand the "I do not see how that's dangerous" box several are trapped in.


I would suggest google is your friend and to go a little farther down the rabbit trail here is one of my favorites from the search: http://www.medbc.com/annals/review/vol_16/num_3/text/vol16n3p122.asp (and yes, admittedly not scouting centric)

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"What's interestin' here is that we have achieved da forum equivalent of drawing into an inside straight, eh? We have unanimity of opinion here among people who would at least play devil's advocate on the other side over just about any scouting topic. "


You all agree because you worship hot house "leadership" formulas that survive only through government-imposed monopolies (like the BSA) or 7.7 trillion dollar "leadership" bail-outs.


Baden-Powell designed every rank of Scouting to be tested by an adult-free "Journey" or "Expedition" of increasing difficulty: 8 miles for Second Class, 15 miles for 1st Class, 2 days & 1 night for the equivalent to Star, 20 miles for Life, and 50 miles for Eagle.




But any cupcake can become an Eagle Scout without EVER walking into the woods with a pack on his back.


The fact that parlour Eagles are not allowed to use leaf blowers or electric screwdrivers is trivial.


In a perfect world, RichardB would be asking you to help him understand why a youth planning and executing a 50 mile Expedition can't be expected to recruit qualified adults to do that hazardous walking for him. :)


Yours at 300 feet,








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Good, Rick. You managed to try to insult everyone else on the forum. ^___^


Richard, the article gives conclusions about the danger of liquid alcohol as a fuel ("But the use of liquid alcohol as a fuel is very dangerous.") without giving any reasons for that conclusion.


Because all fuels present risks (Beaver's MSDS for a brick), it's the relative danger (calculus of utility) that counts. Given no hint as to the other fuels he concludes should be used, there is no way to judge the validity of his conclusion that liquid alcohol chaffing dish stoves should be banned in China.


I do find it interesting that "Most flame burn injuries of this type were caused by misuse of the alcohol-burning stove." ("Most cases occurred when 95% liquid alcohol was added to an alcohol-burning chafing-dish stove when the temperature of the stove was high enough to ignite the alcohol, causing burns in people in the immediate vicinity of the stove.") I think you would find that adding naphtha (Coleman Fuel) to a stove hot enough to cause ignition would also produce even more dramatic results and that the risks do not vary if the stove is home-made vs. not home-made.


You might wish to review this article that concludes that alcohol is significantly safer as a fuel than gasoline or kerosene. http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/files/ethos2005/pdf/stokes_paper.pdf Naptha is, of course, even more flammable. http://www.collectioncare.org/MSDS/naphthamsds.pdf. One might conclude that favoring far more flammable fuels over alcohol is questionable.


I am copying this to the current thread on chemical stoves.

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I'm not sure about that MSDS-for-a-brick but the people we have who are charged with reducing risk in labs come by periodically to count their beans. And MSDS is one of their beans.

So what do they ask for to test me?

"Show me your MSDS for water"

That's right, water. Ultra pure water. That's because I actually have several reagent bottles of...water...displayed prominently because I know the bean counters will take what they think is the most esoteric option...they are just soooooo stupid. It works every time.

So I heft one of the three volumes of MSDS sheets off the shelf, blow off the dust, and page to the MSDS sheet for...water.

The thoughtless bean counters nod in approval as if they've just saved lives or at least shown how little risk there is with regard to this lab. And then they check the spot on their form which proves they've earned their pay. And then they leave, satisfied.


This is the world that Richard lives in. The greatest risk in his world has almost nothing to do with reason or thought. It doesn't have to because at his level he has 'the power'. He doesn't have to be susceptible to reason.

In that world the greatest risk is counting the beans and coming up short, or heaven forbid, counting them incorrectly. And when he wakes at 3am in a cold sweat, the nightmare is one in which there are no more beans.


So folks, take heart. WE are his greatest nightmare. Mu-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!

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Guess I'd have to register for Facebook to post a dislike over there.


almost worthwhile.



I believe that it is not a good practice to compare the youth rules of a youth organization with the youth rules for a place such as habitat for humanity, which is an adult service organization, with the primary volunteers not youth, and no adults trained or experienced with overseeing youth.


To compare the two organizations negates the fact that our primary focus as adults in a youth organiztion such as Boy Scout of America is work with youth to ensure their health and safety. I have spent many a community service project watching out for our youth while they work instead of working much myself. Youth and exuberance can work circles around me, while I keep the clear head to steer away from safety issues.


Accidents happen, and these rules are not going to decrease the number of accidents in my honest opinion.


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