Unit refuses to hold elections

[DuctTape]

6 hours ago, yknot said:

The only other nonethnic youth activity I know apart from scouts that incorporated something like face paint as a rite of passage was foxhunting. Young members of the Pack would get "blooded" the first time they managed to arrive at a kill with the rest of the field. Their faces were marked, sometimes with fox blood, sometimes with something more benign. However, modern day outlooks have changed and fox killing is viewed differently and blooding, or the simulation of blooding, has like many other dated practices pretty much faded away. It's hard to understand then why proponents are so determined to keep things like Native American inspired face painting in scouting, particularly OA, when it has nothing to do with what youth actually do in scouts. Scouting is patch, badge, pin,  sash, flag, and ribbon mad: There must be some impressive regalia unique to scouts and OA, and in keeping with the organization's own insignia traditions, that could be created to replace using symbols of Native American culture like paint or feathers. In the present day, putting war paint on scouts seems as odd and out of the mainstream as putting fake fox blood on young riders. 

My initial thought to your opening statement was "eye black" used by athletes. While functional in nature, it has also begun to be used as merely decoration. 

My second thought was seeing kids at school athletic contests. Many will paint their faces with school colors,  a specific athlete's jersey #, or (during homecoming) their graduation year.

I often see little kids with face paint at festivals, usually some cartoon character.

As I was finishing my thoughts here I also realized that many adultsvwill use face paint especially at sporting events, like NFL games.

I guess my point is that the more I thought about it, the more common face paint in today's culture really is.  However your point about it being specific to a "rite of passage" is something different and well put.

Edited July 15, 2022 by DuctTape

[FireStone]

10 hours ago, yknot said:

The only other nonethnic youth activity I know apart from scouts that incorporated something like face paint as a rite of passage was foxhunting. Young members of the Pack would get "blooded" the first time they managed to arrive at a kill with the rest of the field. Their faces were marked, sometimes with fox blood, sometimes with something more benign. However, modern day outlooks have changed and fox killing is viewed differently and blooding, or the simulation of blooding, has like many other dated practices pretty much faded away. It's hard to understand then why proponents are so determined to keep things like Native American inspired face painting in scouting, particularly OA, when it has nothing to do with what youth actually do in scouts. Scouting is patch, badge, pin,  sash, flag, and ribbon mad: There must be some impressive regalia unique to scouts and OA, and in keeping with the organization's own insignia traditions, that could be created to replace using symbols of Native American culture like paint or feathers. In the present day, putting war paint on scouts seems as odd and out of the mainstream as putting fake fox blood on young riders. 

This is exactly what I'm talking about, what we should be avoiding. Equating all face paint to being Native-American-inspired is attaching cultural ownership of something that no one really has claim to. Putting color on your face does not mean it's cultural appropriation. It doesn't mean that when a football player puts black under his eyes, it doesn't mean that when a student at a pep rally paints their face blue to match school colors. It doesn't mean that when a den leader puts an orange stripe on a Tiger scout's face at a ceremony.

Paint and feathers are not just part of native american culture. They are part of many cultures. It's in how they are used that makes them specific to a tribe, a region, a culture, etc. I'm pretty sure people of aztec or asian tribal heritage would be pretty annoyed to find that we regard the use of feathers to be exclusively Native American.

Frankly I find it just as "odd and out of the mainstream" to suggest that something as commonplace as feathers is the exclusive domain of one specific group of people.

[yknot]

4 hours ago, DuctTape said:

My initial thought to your opening statement was "eye black" used by athletes. While functional in nature, it has also begun to be used as merely decoration. 

My second thought was seeing kids at school athletic contests. Many will paint their faces with school colors,  a specific athlete's jersey #, or (during homecoming) their graduation year.

I often see little kids with face paint at festivals, usually some cartoon character.

As I was finishing my thoughts here I also realized that many adultsvwill use face paint especially at sporting events, like NFL games.

I guess my point is that the more I thought about it, the more common face paint in today's culture really is.  However your point about it being specific to a "rite of passage" is something different and well put.

Exactly. My thoughts were connected to using it to signify something -- a rite of passage, a rank advancement, an honor -- when it has no real connection to the activity or the honor. Face paint for the sake of face paint at a carnival or sporting event is different. Nothing is being implied by its use other than art, fandom, or function unless of course you use it to mimic or signify something. 

[Mrjeff]

Without going into a long spheel I  would like to say what I know, not what I  think I know.  Our local Native Americans are of the Creek Nation, and we have a long term Arrowman who is Native American.  We also an individual who is an active and contributing member of the Creek Nation and he has an open invitation to all 9f out events and ceremonies.  They are indeed concerned with the respect in which their heritage is used by the Order of the Arrow and are glad that we honor their heritage.   This I know, not something that is just talked about and surmised.  If someone reaches out to the local Nation, you may be surprised about how open and willing they may be to provide advice and suggestions. And yes, in the event that a member of our

 

 

 

 

[Mrjeff]

Wow, could it be that the group known as the Order of the Arrow, a group that is SUPPOSED TO BE YOUTH RUN is the victim of way to much adult influence.  Adults tend to over think everything.  Adults read too much into things, want everyone to achieve everything, and get "a trophy" for just showing up.  If all of the guesses, policies and rules are put in place to appease everyone,mwe wouldn't do anything.   I try to remember that the whole thing is based on the cold hard fact that kids are involved in Scouting in to have fun. Rules, lessons, learning and value are secondary.  In my prospective, the OA is kids getting together in a safe environment having fun.

[FireStone]

2 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Wow, could it be that the group known as the Order of the Arrow, a group that is SUPPOSED TO BE YOUTH RUN is the victim of way to much adult influence.  Adults tend to over think everything.  Adults read too much into things, want everyone to achieve everything, and get "a trophy" for just showing up.  If all of the guesses, policies and rules are put in place to appease everyone,mwe wouldn't do anything.   I try to remember that the whole thing is based on the cold hard fact that kids are involved in Scouting in to have fun. Rules, lessons, learning and value are secondary.  In my prospective, the OA is kids getting together in a safe environment having fun.

Adults are there to step in when something is unsafe. Not just physically unsafe but also socially, emotionally, culturally, etc. We're not supposed to stand aside and say "scout-led" to everything the scouts want to do. Certainly if something crosses into territory that is possibly harmful to people of a specific heritage, we are supposed to intervene.

That said, I do think a line has been crossed if adults are blocking OA elections because they think it takes scouts away from the troop. Regardless of whether it is true or not (debatable that it excessively removes scouts from troop participation), that alone is not a reason to block elections. That is not scout-led.

[Mrjeff]

Without going into a long spheel I  would like to say what I know, not what I  think I know.  Our local Native Americans are of the Creek Nation, and we have a long term Arrowman who is Native American.  We also an individual who is an active and contributing member of the Creek Nation and he has an open invitation to all 9f out events and ceremonies.  They are indeed concerned with the respect in which their heritage is used by the Order of the Arrow and are glad that we honor their heritage.   This I know, not something that is just talked about and surmised.  If someone reaches out to the local Nation, you may be surprised about how open and willing they may be to provide advice and suggestions. And yes, in the event that a member of our

 

 

 

 

[Mrjeff]

I'm not talking about whats  safe.  You have missed my point, some things just don't matter and adults who guess what is best without doing any research or who enforce non existent rules, are over reaching.  

[Oldscout448]

4 hours ago, FireStone said:

Adults are there to step in when something is unsafe. Not just physically unsafe but also socially, emotionally, culturally, etc. We're not supposed to stand aside and say "scout-led" to everything the scouts want to do. Certainly if something crosses into territory that is possibly harmful to people of a specific heritage, we are supposed to intervene.

 

Please don't take this as  a challenge or an attack,  can you define " socially unsafe" and " culturally unsafe"?  I'm trying to think of actions that scouts could take that would be considered threatening to our culture or society and am not coming up with anything.  Antifa or other groups that promote or utilize violence perhaps, but not scouts. 

Secondly, my little brain is confused by the phrase " possibly  harmful to people of a specific heritage".  Can  I assume  given the history of  this thread that you refer to Native Americans or Indians as they generally call themselves?   If so, how are the scouts in my troop even capable of possibly harming someone who isn't even there?  

Let us say that a half dozen young scouts in my troop decide the pretend they are Indians  and do so in a most disrespectful fashion.  It's never happened but let's pretend it does.  This is definitely what I would consider a 'teaching moment''where some instruction would certainly be in order, but would it actually  harm the descendants of the closest tribe over a hundred miles away?  No.  No more than it harms me when someone makes a joke about stupid perpetually drunk Irishmen out of my hearing.  

 

[yknot]

 

 

Here are a couple of interesting articles on Native American connections to scouting. I've seen them before but there are some points covered that seem relevant to some of the discussions here, especially those raised by the Lenni Lenape pastor. While some of the examples included in these articles are more archival, there are a lot of other clips and examples that are current within the past few years. I think one of the key points that the pastor makes, which was what I was driving at in one of my posts, is that even without a religious ceremonial connection, in his opinion, we are allowing scouting youth to wear, display, sing, play, or brandish cultural items which they did not earn the right to do in their proper context. 

The other article touches on a point someone else raised: Why in the modern day are we so attached to symbols and traditions from another century when we have a rich scouting history of our own to draw upon?

https://indiancountrytoday.com/news/order-of-the-arrow-is-a-secret-scout-society-in-the-spirit-of-the-lenni-lenape-a-lenape-leader-disagrees?redir=1

https://indiancountrytoday.com/news/solutions-for-moving-beyond-appropriation-in-the-21st-century-scouts-star-wars?redir=1

[MisterH]

"Why in the modern day are we so attached to symbols and traditions from another century when we have a rich scouting history of our own to draw upon? "

Among the mythology of early America are the stories about new settlers from Europe learning from the indigenous American peoples how to survive in the wilderness of North America. It shows up in the stories of "The First Thanksgiving", and in a lot of American literature set during the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries. Since many of the skills taught in scouting involve outdoor survival, it makes sense to acknowledge the lessons learned by the people who were surviving on this land for centuries before any of our ancestors arrived.

One of the overarching lessons of scouting is "There were people here before you; learn their lessons and respect their contributions to your present. There will also be people here after you; pass on the lessons you have learned to them, and do your best to leave for them the natural beauty you enjoy today." I believe that respectfully educating scouts about the history, skills, and traditions of the tribes native to their areas is an important part of that lesson.

[SiouxRanger]

26 minutes ago, MisterH said:

"Why in the modern day are we so attached to symbols and traditions from another century when we have a rich scouting history of our own to draw upon? "

Folks seem to be drawn to older/ancient traditions. And such, foreign to their own traditions. Something mystical.

Scouting history is young and not well-promoted.

33 minutes ago, MisterH said:

Since many of the skills taught in scouting involve outdoor survival, it makes sense to acknowledge the lessons learned by the people who were surviving on this land for centuries before any of our ancestors arrived.

Not having reviewed merit badge requirements across the board regarding ancestral skills (skill by skill), perhaps every merit badge requirement should have designation of "ancestral skills compliance."

And survival skills added.

Having designed a primitive skills course for Summer camp, having been demolished by COVID, and sadly never to happen (my only chance to step beyond handling Troop paperwork), any suggestions on skills to be taught would be welcome.

I hope to pass on the program to others so that my work is not lost.

[skeptic]

Scouting has a long tradition of borrowing symbolic things from others, often indiginous groups.  Not just here in the U.S., but elsewhere too.  Woodbadge beads are connected to the Zulu tribe of Africa and Dinizulu.  "

Early in the history of the Scout Movement, the founder, Robert Baden-Powell, ran the first residential adult leader training course for Scouters. At the completion of the course, the participants asked him if he could give them some token to indicate that they had been trained. He had not given this any thought, but on receiving the request he improvised by taking two little beads from a string of such beads he had; he threaded them on a bootlace, and hung them around the neck of each Scouter.

Ever since, each Scouter who has successfully completed the advanced training course receives two similar beads on a leather thong. Known as the Wood Badge beads, they are proudly worn by Scouters to indicate that they are continuing in a tradition handed down from Baden-Powell.

"

In June 1888 Dinuzulu lead an attack against the Mandlakazi, who in 1883 had burnt down his father’s kraal at Ulundi, and defeated them at Nongoma. The British sent a force to capture Dinuzula lead by Robert Baden Powell, who in later years was to found the Boy Scouts movement. Although Baden Powell was unable to catch up with Dinuzulu he did manage to acquire his ‘iziQu’ - his long necklace of wooden beads. Writing about the campaign Baden Powell said..

“Eventually Dinuzulu took refuge in his stronghold, I had been sent forward on a Scouting expedition into his stronghold. He nipped out as we got in. In his haste he left his necklace behind - a very long chain of little wooden beads.”

So, it goes to the founder in this respect.

     In our area the primary tribe is Chumash, and our local O.A. lodge workes with them to honor their traditions.  At times an elder from the tribe has attended O.A. ceremonies and blessed the gathering with valid Chumash lore.  

     From what I have read over time, this is more the norm than what the crazies that talk about cultural assimilation claim.  And, I am sure with a bit of digging we can find examples where local BSA groups have stopped some type of ceremony when actually approached by local tribe leaders.  If you have read the actual history of the Koshare Indians.  You will discover that from almost day one, there was a cultural review by the local tribes of what the dancers did, and also the ceremonial items and backdrops.  That is the normal approach from those units and OA lodges that choose to study the local tribes, or even those that are more broadly recoginzed from old movies and stories.  In that regard, I would like to see the Indian Lore merit badge modified to require some type of local cultural interchange as a requirement so as to assure the youth learn about their local tribes.  

 

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by skeptic
correct Koshare from Kearsage

[Mrjeff]

Without going into a long spheel I  would like to say what I know, not what I  think I know.  Our local Native Americans are of the Creek Nation, and we have a long term Arrowman who is Native American.  We also an individual who is an active and contributing member of the Creek Nation and he has an open invitation to all 9f out events and ceremonies.  They are indeed concerned with the respect in which their heritage is used by the Order of the Arrow and are glad that we honor their heritage.   This I know, not something that is just talked about and surmised.  If someone reaches out to the local Nation, you may be surprised about how open and willing they may be to provide advice and suggestions. And yes, in the event that a member of our

 

 

 

 

[Mrjeff]

The OA is a youth administered group that does not just give lip service to that concept.  The whole thing is steaped in both native american traditions and scouting traditions.  It may just be that the youth like it the way it is and have fun doing it.  The only thing that I can attest to is that our guys and gals really enjoy participating in our ceremonies and they do a good job.  Without getting into a huge discussion about all the other issues, if they want to do it and enjoy themselves thats good enough for me.