The issue with girls in Scouting

[HelpfulTracks]

I see many opinions floating around about the possible/probable future of Scouting that includes female youth.

 

What is difficult, with so many potential variations, is to tell is what people support or oppose.

 

Based on what I saw in the video, a parallel track for girls in Cub and Boy Scouting is what is being considered. No doubt that some Packs/Troops will go coed regardless of what BSA National policy says, some councils clearly do not enforce National Policy already in myriad of issues.

 

So I have some questions in the form of a poll. Feel free to expound on your answers.

[Eagle94-A1]

I'm opposed because the program will need to be changed to incorporate girls in Scouting, and that takes away from the boys. Whatever you think about the various studies on whether single gender or coed education and programs are better for youth or not, the BSA's program is geared for them.

 

A parallel program already exists, GSUSA, and from what I keep hearing it sucks. I think GSUSA needs to change how they do things to attract the girls who want to be in Boy Scouts. 

 

But let's face reality. The decision has already been made. If it was not made already, then why is BSA going on a major "Scouting is for the Family" i.e. Scouting Magazine's article on family camping (which was horribly out of place IMHO), national is promoting,  "Camp with the Fam" with the scout shops,  CS promo materials have sisters in the pics, and the video promo with the single mom family with the sister doing activities with her now Boy Scout brother. Call me a cynic, but the decision has already been made, they just have not announced it yet (January 2 sources have told me).

 

 

And whether BSA wants it or not THERE WILL BE FULLY INTEGRATED CUB SCOUT DENS AND INTEGRATED TROOPS (caps for emphasis)  I've already commented on this topic in other threads, and it came up at roundtable.  There are not enough volunteers to have segregated dens and/or troops.

[Chadamus]

Eager to see the results of the poll.

Hopefully this thread doesn't get locked too.

[RememberSchiff]

Hopefully.

[Chisos]

I'm opposed because the program will need to be changed to incorporate girls in Scouting, and that takes away from the boys. Whatever you think about the various studies on whether single gender or coed education and programs are better for youth or not, the BSA's program is geared for them.

 

A parallel program already exists, GSUSA, and from what I keep hearing it sucks. I think GSUSA needs to change how they do things to attract the girls who want to be in Boy Scouts. 

 

But let's face reality. The decision has already been made. If it was not made already, then why is BSA going on a major "Scouting is for the Family" i.e. Scouting Magazine's article on family camping (which was horribly out of place IMHO), national is promoting,  "Camp with the Fam" with the scout shops,  CS promo materials have sisters in the pics, and the video promo with the single mom family with the sister doing activities with her now Boy Scout brother. Call me a cynic, but the decision has already been made, they just have not announced it yet (January 2 sources have told me).

 

 

And whether BSA wants it or not THERE WILL BE FULLY INTEGRATED CUB SCOUT DENS AND INTEGRATED TROOPS (caps for emphasis)  I've already commented on this topic in other threads, and it came up at roundtable.  There are not enough volunteers to have segregated dens and/or troops.

 

This pretty much sums it up for me, too.  But, that being said, if co-ed/integrated/whatever is what the parents at my CO want, that's probably what we'll do.  We'll find a way to make it work, and continue to provide a great Scouting experience for the boys (and girls, I suppose).

[Col. Flagg]

Eager to see the results of the poll.

Hopefully this thread doesn't get locked too.

That's up to the mods. Just don't dissent their point of view.

[RememberSchiff]

@@Col. Flagg take a day to reflect about  listening to others and respecting their opinions. No one here is not passionate about  Scouting.

 

It's been a busy day moderating.  More "Courteous" would  be welcome.

Edited September 15, 2017 by RememberSchiff
grammar

[HelpfulTracks]

If total agreement was a condition of friendship, I would have no friends.

[HelpfulTracks]

What colors my viewpoint.

I was born in the 60's, grew up in the 70's and came of age in the 80's.

 

I am an Eagle Scout. I coached youth sports for many years (I volunteer coached at high school and college level). I am a BSA volunteer and serve in multiple positions in my council from unit to district to council committee as well as OA.

 

I have a son, who, as I write this, is upstairs working on his Eagle project plan. He is heavily involved in OA as well.

 

I have a daughter who is watching the calendar waiting to join a Crew as soon as she is old enough. Even if BSA opens up to girls, I doubt she will join a troop as she will be eyeball deep in Venturing.

 

Our experience with GSUSA has been disconcerting. We were told by two different troops we approached that they were full. A third was very anti-outdoor program, so not a fit for my daughter. I volunteered to assist another troop so they could support more members and was told no thank you. I volunteered to start a troop and was told, that isn't how it works. They would take my daughters name and let us know when a spot opened. She has gone to 4H camp, but there is no regular program at her school. The only AHG program near us meets in the afternoons (predominately home schooled girls) so it would be possible for us to get her there from school in time.

 

For the longest time I was opposed to BSA opening up the younger programs to girls. I firmly believed, and still do, that single gender programing is valuable to our youth. And frankly, Scouting is the only place outside of sports where youth can experience that. Virtually every other experience is coed. I saw any possible change as homogenizing our program.

 

But I have come to the conclusion that GSUSA cannot be "fixed" to be "like BSA" or even remotely similar. It is a fundamentally different program, with a different structure and operational paradigm. It serves a different market than BSA, not just in gender but also in philosophy.

 

For the last 2-3 years I have had discussions, sometime heated, with others and even with myself (yes, I know that is the first sign), about what possible changes to the program could mean and how it might affect my children, my scouts and me.

 

I know I cannot walk away from Scouting, what we do is too important. I also know that I am a enough of a leader to overcome any potential hurdles this change might throw in my path. I am enough of a coach to know that the application of those lessons already varies depending on the young men we are teaching. One size does not fit all. I know I have knowledge and experience that I can impart to our youth regardless of gender.

 

So, for me, that only leaves the question of what do I do in the face of the current situation. Do I sit on the sidelines and wait to see what happens, only to react after the fact? Do I fight the change and try to keep Scouting the way it is now? Or do try to influence the outcome so that we provide the best possible program for our youth?

 

I have chosen the latter.

 

I believe a parallel program is an appropriate and good solution. I do believe that single gender programs have much to offer, particularly since we also have multiple coed programs. I mean no disrespect to GSUSA, but I honestly believe there is no better youth program for building character, confidence and leadership that BSA. So why would I offer my son the best opportunities and my daughter something less?

[Cubmaster Pete]

I'm opposed because the program will need to be changed to incorporate girls in Scouting, and that takes away from the boys. Whatever you think about the various studies on whether single gender or coed education and programs are better for youth or not, the BSA's program is geared for them.

 

A parallel program already exists, GSUSA, and from what I keep hearing it sucks. I think GSUSA needs to change how they do things to attract the girls who want to be in Boy Scouts. 

What changes do you think will need to be made? I hear a lot of this "changing the program" but I never hear anyone say what they think that will be? Like specifics.... (btw I do not want any changes at all to the program, we we are I agreement there)

 

GSUSA does not want to change, and they won't. So many say that they should, but that's a dead end.

[The Latin Scot]

I INTENSELY oppose the first and third suggestions. I am confused by the second one, though. When you say "the creation of a parallel program," isn't that exactly what groups like the Girl Scouts or the Campfire Girls are doing? Why expect the BSA to come up with such a thing when there are plenty of other programs doing just that?  People say "the Girl Scouts won't change," and so they leave them alone. But when the Boy Scouts don't change, NO! We much MAKE them change! Why then afflict the Boy Scouts instead of accepting what our program is, like you seem content to do with the Girl Scouts? It's a double-standard, and it reeks of ulterior agendas. 

 

I grow weary of people who basically want to take advantage of a respected program like the Boy Scouts of America, and change it into what they want just to meet their own agenda, rather than having the courage and work-ethic to create what they want on their own. If they want a program that offers BSA-like opportunities to girls, great. Create something. Don't demand that the BSA alienate thousands, or even millions, of faithful participants just so that they can get what they want without all the work. 

 

They want the BSA's resources, its properties, its opportunities, the respect it has spent 107 years cultivating, the legacy it has worked so hard to build - but at the cost of changing the fundamental character of the organization. And that character is a program built to help mold young boys into fine, honorable, hard-working men who will contribute to our countries citizenry in meaningful ways. The WAY that it does so has been honed over the years to be exactly what boys need. It is NOT what girls need. Girls are different than boys. They develop differently; they experience the world differently; they have their own powerful gifts and sensibilities that deserve to be cultivated with the same attention and nourishment and nurturing that the boys get in the BSA - but the BSA does not cultivate the gifts of girls to the extent they need and deserve. Just because a girl might love the same activities as a Boy Scout does not mean that the Boy Scout program will nurture her growth into a young woman to her fullest potential. To force the program to accept girls would necessary and unavoidably compel it to make fundamental changes in how it is run, how it is organized, and how it operates, and those changes would lessen the influence on the boys while failing to provide enough of the right influence for the girls.

 

I understand if others feel differently, but I have yet to have placed in front of me one single argument that could make sense of such a transformation of the program to me. It is a perilous idea, and I care too much about the youth of today to possibly contemplate it. As an educator, a child development specialist, an uncle, a Scouter, and a friend of who-knows-how-many young people, I cannot condone such a move. 

Edited September 16, 2017 by The Latin Scot

[Snow Owl]

I just saw a copy of the newest batch of youth applications.  I quote:

 

Joining Requirements

 

Cub Scout Pack

Pack membership is open to youth in kindergarten through fifth grade...

 

Boy Scout Troop

Children can be Scouts if they have completed ....

 

** It no longer says boys or your son..   I think national already has a plan underway.

[qwazse]

The first  an second "more program" proposals expect too much from already beleaguered programs.

 

The third sounds like fun. I like fun. That's really the only reason I favor it. Well that, and I think our nation needs more youth enthused about living by the scout oath and law, and my instincts tell me that could be better obtained in mixed troops in some communities. Single-sex troops in others. It's a big country.

 

But that is not without conditions ... I'm not willing to loose good scouters in the process. If good scouters go, so will good scouts. Proponents of #3 sometimes make their case by casting aspersions on the few boy scout organizations in WOSM. That makes me question their objectivity. Pakistan's numbers have doubled in two decades. Saudi's have gone from zero to something formidable. Folks who are dismissive of those facts are asking me to ignore scouters who are open about their biases and regard scouters who are blind to them. I find that position untenable.

[The Latin Scot]

I must correct the false information posted here before it explodes into false rumors and spreads beyond this thread. 

 

I just saw a copy of the newest batch of youth applications.  I quote:

 

Joining Requirements

 

Cub Scout Pack

Pack membership is open to youth in kindergarten through fifth grade...

 

Boy Scout Troop

Children can be Scouts if they have completed ....

 

** It no longer says boys or your son..   I think national already has a plan underway.

 
Clearly you did not read the application very carefully. Or you have misquoted it, though why I can only imagine. 

 

My friends, I have in front of me a youth application, picked up a few hours ago from my regional Scout Service Center. It is the latest and most current application to come from the BSA. Under the heading "CUB SCOUT PACK," on the second page inside, it says "Pack membership is open to boys." No further comment. Under "BOY SCOUT TROOP/VARSITY TEAM," it says under the heading Boy Scout Troop "Your son can be a Scout if he has completed ... et cetera, while under Varsity Team is says "Varsity Scouting - A male youth must be at least 14 years of age and not yet 18." Both are explicit. There is no room for misunderstanding or re-interpretation.

 

To differentiate those programs from a program that actually is co-ed, it reads under the heading "VENTURING CREW/SEA SCOUT SHIP (COEDUCATIONAL)" (for emphasis I am sure) "Venturing and Sea Scouting are for young men and women at least 13 years old ..." et cetera.

 

All are very clear. There has been no change to this application. I called my regional offices to confirm as an added measure of certification to my research. They confirmed that there is no "newer application," and that there is no plan to open either Boy Scouting or Cub Scouting to girls at this time.

 

To spread the false rumor that the application is accepting girls is unwise and unwarranted. Why would National secretly try to smuggle such a massive change into the program under our noses? Would they really be so idiotic as to think they could slip in such a bombshell without anybody noticing? Of course not. If they ever did make such a decision it would come with trumpets blaring and fanfares and all kinds of nonsense. They wouldn't bury clues in the applications as though this was some second-rate mystery for the members to find and try to solve.

[The Latin Scot]

@@qwazse I appreciate your measured response and your ability to both understand and articulate both sides of the issue. Thank you for that post.