Eagle1993 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Not siding with nationals on this as I’m advocating a case by case decision. Each lodge reviewing their own with local tribes. That said, if the WB group painted their faces black, dressed up like an “African”, danced around, used voices and fake stories reminiscent of 1930’s Hollywood view of African tribes, I believe you might see some protests and changes from national. I haven’t been through WB, but I certainly hope they don’t do the above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 41 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said: Not siding with nationals on this as I’m advocating a case by case decision. Each lodge reviewing their own with local tribes. That said, if the WB group painted their faces black, dressed up like an “African”, danced around, used voices and fake stories reminiscent of 1930’s Hollywood view of African tribes, I believe you might see some protests and changes from national. I haven’t been through WB, but I certainly hope they don’t do the above. OA used to shoot an arrow in to a pile of wood to start a fire...until it got nixed. As I understand it, the big argument is not about the regalia but the total appropriation of the culture. In that there are no "degrees" of indignation. If you appropriate one item then it is as bad as ten items. Or so it should be if we are going to be consistent...and that's my point. If OA is going to be forced to give up the native american aspects of OA then WB should have to give up their "regalia" and "props" as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pselb Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 My son is only in Cub Scouts so he's exposed to just a few of the concepts connected to the Native American experience. But from my limited understanding of scouting, is it only the American scouts that do the Native American things or do other scouters around the world appropriate local legend and lore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattR Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 How often do we get into discussions that boil down to what is going on inside someone's head when they do something? Cross sticks could be hazing or a way to have some innocent fun. Dancing for lost items can be taken as fun or really embarrassing. Is that what's going on here? How about a different view of this. Suppose a NA tribe decides to use a likeness of Jesus at an event. This could easily go two ways, depending on intent. If it were respectful I'm not sure many Christians would mind. If it were to illustrate peace and love and respect of all people then my guess is most people would be fine with it. Certainly there will always be some that would be upset but for the most part people would be okay. On the other hand, if it were to mock Christianity then that's a different scenario. It would be in all the newspapers and it would get ugly. So the question is not should a tribe be allowed to use Jesus, it's how are they going to use Jesus and is it respectful. Back to the original intent of the OA. There is a certain mystique in NA cultures, just like there is at the root of all cultures, that resonates in a way that words don't. Sometimes it takes more than just talking about an "honor society." Scouts do not respond to talking. They'd rather see it. As a scout I really enjoyed watching the OA ceremonies. We keep throwing out bits of fun and motivation because someone can abuse it. I think it would be better to get all the people involved to sit down and talk about the good that could come from these things, figure out better ways to convey what's good and bad, and also accept that a few bad situations should not be used to paint an entire organization with a single brush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Pselb said: My son is only in Cub Scouts so he's exposed to just a few of the concepts connected to the Native American experience. But from my limited understanding of scouting, is it only the American scouts that do the Native American things or do other scouters around the world appropriate local legend and lore? What say you, @Cambridgeskip and @ianwilkins? Do British Scouts get dressed up as Saxon hordes or Norman conquerors or anything like that? You have more "legend and lore" to choose from than we do. (Added: I found a good illustration of some Saxon raiders doing their thing, but I did not post it because it was slightly gruesome. What I noticed that is somewhat relevant to today is that the guys were carrying... sheath knives! Very large ones, too.) Edited January 25, 2018 by NJCubScouter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridgeskip Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 3 hours ago, NJCubScouter said: What say you, @Cambridgeskip and @ianwilkins? Do British Scouts get dressed up as Saxon hordes or Norman conquerors or anything like that? You have more "legend and lore" to choose from than we do. (Added: I found a good illustration of some Saxon raiders doing their thing, but I did not post it because it was slightly gruesome. What I noticed that is somewhat relevant to today is that the guys were carrying... sheath knives! Very large ones, too.) Not really! Younger sections, ie beavers and cubs, might sometimes have a themed camp which mind involve outfits of some sort but it's not something that would be done as a matter of course. We certainly don't have anything resembling OA at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelpfulTracks Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) On 1/25/2018 at 12:59 PM, Col. Flagg said: If OA is going to be forced to give up the native american aspects of OA then WB should have to give up their "regalia" and "props" as well. And put out a call to the rest of the world to drop the campaign hats and neckers as well. For that matter, probably a good many Scouting skills as well. Edited January 28, 2018 by HelpfulTracks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pselb Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) History of the Campaign Hat. The current drill sergeant hat evolved from the 1883 campaign hat. That headgear was a modified (flat brim versus upturned brim) Montana Peak, which was adopted for wear by the army in 1911, and abandoned in 1942. Boy Scout of America are the only non-military organization in the US authorized to wear US military uniforms. Sea Scouts is the last remnant of this. Originally Boy Scouts wore the same uniform as the soldiers of WW I eventually replacing buttons so as to indicate BSA rather than the uniform. Collar brass was also changed from US to BSA. The Scouting movement makes the neckerchief part of its uniform. ... The origin of the Scouting neckerchief seems to be in Robert Baden-Powell's participation in the Second Matabele War in 1896; where he worked with Frederick Russell Burnham, an American-born scout employed by the British Army. It would appear that these items were not appropriated from any ethnic nor concerned sources. If you look closely at pictures of the campaign hat, the BSA version is not the same as the British version. Edited January 28, 2018 by Pselb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelpfulTracks Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 9 hours ago, Pselb said: History of the Campaign Hat. The current drill sergeant hat evolved from the 1883 campaign hat. That headgear was a modified (flat brim versus upturned brim) Montana Peak, which was adopted for wear by the army in 1911, and abandoned in 1942. Boy Scout of America are the only non-military organization in the US authorized to wear US military uniforms. Sea Scouts is the last remnant of this. Originally Boy Scouts wore the same uniform as the soldiers of WW I eventually replacing buttons so as to indicate BSA rather than the uniform. Collar brass was also changed from US to BSA. The Scouting movement makes the neckerchief part of its uniform. ... The origin of the Scouting neckerchief seems to be in Robert Baden-Powell's participation in the Second Matabele War in 1896; where he worked with Frederick Russell Burnham, an American-born scout employed by the British Army. It would appear that these items were not appropriated from any ethnic nor concerned sources. If you look closely at pictures of the campaign hat, the BSA version is not the same as the British version. But the concept of the necker and the Stetson campaign hat both came from FRB. BP adopted them from Burnham, because of their utility, during their time together in South Africa. Culture is not purely ethnic. The western (cowboy) culture is one that, I hear, is or was popular in Europe and Asia. My point is the race to be the "more aggrieved" party is a fools folly. With thousands of years of human history where an how do draw lines of what is and isn't cultural appropriation. More importantly it appears generational in some cases. One generation of a particular group being offended by something a previous generation of the same group encouraged, or inturn "borrowed" in part or in total from other cultures. Arguments made over the cultural appropriation of rock and roll and BBQ a few years back comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back Pack Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I don’t like the term cultural appropriation because it implies merely using something from another culture requires permission or constitutes misuse. There are things (bbq or tattoos for example) which are somewhat universal. There are things which are specific to a culture. But does using any of these things mean misuse. People argue using feathers and war paint is misuse of Native American culture. What about a chef that misused a native dish and cooks it poorly. What about Hispanic or Asian women with blond hair. These are examples of appropriation but with no ill intent. They use these things because they like them not to make fun of anyone. As stated above it’s impossible to trace many things back to a single source. If the users of any item appear to be trying to treat it with respect then what’s the harm. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David CO Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 On 1/28/2018 at 9:21 AM, Back Pack said: As stated above it’s impossible to trace many things back to a single source. I agree with that. I have no objection to OA using an arrow as its symbol. Almost all cultures have used arrows. Yes, some things are universal. OA is not just using universal symbols, and it is not just using "something" from another culture. OA groups choose a specific tribe and mimic the dress, ceremonies, names, customs, and culture of that tribe. It is appropriating the culture. Cultural appropriation is an appropriate term for what the OA is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 My understanding the OA (BSA) has NOT branded any images of Native Americans., just arrow images. Meanwhile, the long goodbye of Cleveland Indian Chief Wahoo has begun. ... well at least from uniforms and billboards. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/sports/baseball/cleveland-indians-chief-wahoo-logo.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back Pack Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 22 hours ago, David CO said: I agree with that. I have no objection to OA using an arrow as its symbol. Almost all cultures have used arrows. Yes, some things are universal. OA is not just using universal symbols, and it is not just using "something" from another culture. OA groups choose a specific tribe and mimic the dress, ceremonies, names, customs, and culture of that tribe. It is appropriating the culture. Cultural appropriation is an appropriate term for what the OA is doing. Ok. So wood badge is doing the same thing with the horn they use. I’m not sure appropriation is always a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Back Pack said: Ok. So wood badge is doing the same thing with the horn they use. I’m not sure appropriation is always a bad thing. Don't bother. You will never get folks to take down WB even if they are culturally appropriating something. Go to class and focus on your studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Without commenting on the overall issue, I would note that imitating a horn and imitating the behavior of other people are two very different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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