desertrat77

Scoutfish, good point...when neckerchiefs were popular, the issue slide had serious competition from slides that each scout or scouter made. Homemade slides were unique, creative, and held the neckerchief well. Some came in a kit, others were made from scratch. Check out old Boys Life magazines from the '50s and '60s for ideas. Cool stuff.

Beavah, I concur. And I appreciate the wisdom and even-handed approach you bring to these topics...much needed clarity.

In the '50s, corporate American relied a great deal on personality tests. The results were taken seriously, with impact on hiring and promotion. For an indepth look, read "The Organization Man" by William Whyte. Written circa 1956, Mr. Whyte examines the subject in detail and provides some very useful hints on how to take these tests. Though it's more than 50 years old, the book examines a variety topics related to serving in an organization, and it's well written too. Many of his insights will ring true today.

I think the Eagle is completely in step with the spirit of scouting. If I'm interpreting his comment correctly, what he experienced on the trail to Eagle was more important to him than the uniform. I agree: the experiences trump the uniform. Also, he said the uniform was dorky, which from my point of view, is 100 percent accurate. If the BSA truly values the uniform, they'd ask the Eagle and his peers to design it, not a group middle age scouters who will wear anything with a BSA label on it. Design a uniform people will like, and they will wear it. Gladly. Until then, we will continue the status quo the two schools of thought: "I'm proud of my ODL and/or Centennial uniform" vs "I ain't spending my money on that dorky stuff." PS Actually, there is a third point of view: "I don't like the uniform but I'll wear it so I can be a scout." Admirable, but it's a darn shame we put folks in that position. Also makes me wonder how many potential scouts and scouters have stayed away from the BSA because of the negative impression of our uniforms. Not necessarily because it's a uniform, but a dorky one. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

SP, I see what you are saying, and I sure could have picked my opening words better. I was addressing the general decline of the neckerchief in the BSA as a whole over the last couple decades, and not specifically situations like yours.

This is a good example of what happens when form is more important than function. I've got a full size neckerchief from the '40s...big, made from absorbant material. Essentially a big cotton bandana with BSA on it. It doesn't roll up very smoothly, but it is comfortable. Then at some point in our history, it became more important that the neckerchief be rolled nice and tight, like a taquito, and look good during uniform inspections. So it went from a square to a triangle...from cotton to some non-absorbant material...and became a useless decoration rather than the multi-purpose uniform item as orginally intended. You can still pick up a full size ones off ebay...I got one, in superb shape, for about 6 bucks. Money well spent.

Eagle92, check out the Great Eastern Cutlery family of knives...they can be pricey but they are high quality, American made, well designed, and most if not all are 1095 carbon steel. They develop superb patina over time and sharpen nicely always. I'm partial to the jack and stockman models.

Beavah, thanks for the great post. The new Eagle is right on every count.

No need for adults to scale back their culinary expertise to suffer with the patrols that can't/won't cook. I wouldn't dine on lobster or some high end foodstuffs on a scout camp out. But if the patrols eye your homemade breakfast burritos while they are dining on poptarts or instant oatmeal, well, that may be the significant emotional event they need to plan a better menu and execute actual recipes next campout. Sure worked for me as a young PL. About the time I got tired seeing the scouters enjoy simple but tasty meals is when cooking became a priority for my patrol. Life was much better thereafter!

I've got an oscar de larenta shirt, from '85, that I've used in town for years (meetings and such). Frankly, it's getting a little threadbare and while it still fits, the buttons show strain at times. It's on the verge of becoming my outdoor shirt. Pants: last edition of the ODL...quite horrible, these pants, in terms of comfort and design and appearance, but they fine for meetings and dinners and such. My outdoor shirt, which I recently retired, was a superbly made long sleeve from the '50s. Material wore like iron but was comfortable. Looked good too. Minimal patches--eagle knot and the BSA strip. Well, outgrew that and regretfully donated it to charity. Perhaps someone else can benefit from it. I wore it on campouts for nearly 20 years and it was still in good shape. A couple years ago, when BSA supply was selling ODL shirts for five bucks, I picked up 2 that were circus tent size. Had them tailored and they are actually pretty nice shirts. No centennial uniforms...that whole project has a stigma to me.

As much as I appreciate the worldwide spirit of scouting, I think the world crest patch itself is an unnecessary gee gaw. In a similar opinion, the popularity of the centennial ring is a mystery to me. That said, no doubt I am in the minority on this!

If a volunteer's morale will be boosted by a patrol patch, I say more power to them. I like the cited examples of the adults having a patrol, flag, etc...sets a good tone and gives the scouts a good impression of the adults and scouting (scouting is fun and a life-long activity).

What to do? A. Silver Fawn sits in a dresser drawer, or a box in the garage, unwanted by the heirs. Or the heirs need cash because of tough times. or B. Sell it to a collector who will display it so others can respect what it represents. Or sell it to someone who needs a replacement. Most of us would treasure the fawn...but not everyone feels the same way. Scout awards, academy rings, Super Bowl rings...the family of the recipient, and sometime the recipient, will feel the need to part with the item. Such is life.

I think the trend started in the '80s, and it is present everywhere--the participation ribbon syndrome. Funny you mentioned your cub shirt from the 70s...having just moved again, I looked at mine from the same era and had the same thought. Very few patches. Saw an old photo of our webelos den and those shirts were stark. Bobcat pins, wolf and bear patches, arrow points and that was it for personal recognition. As I recall, we had activities and projects all the time but you never got a patch or bead. You just did it and was happy to have done it.

It's extortion. And a sign of the times.

Packsaddle, gosh, golly, congratulations on your super mixing skills ! I'm not unfamiliar with breaking the ice, social nuances, and building bonds. I'm at the point in my military career where I spend more time at conferences, luncheons, meetings, civic events, than I care to think about. Perhaps we should define terms. By snobbery, I don't mean folks enjoying their longstanding friendships, nor a simple lack of common courtesy. I'm talking about overt behavior, verbal and non-verbal, where the message is clear--you don't belong ("why yes, you are intruding!") and/or you aren't qualified to speak. When you introduce yourself to another scouter for the first time, and he scowls and scans your uniform instead of looking you in the eye, and then walks away in a huff, that's the first level of snobbery. I'm getting ready to move again...will be my four council in five years. My current district has probably been the most friendly to new folks.

I don't lose one second of sleep worrying about this. There are folks that buy scout stuff, and folks that sell it. Matters not to me. Wearing unearned scouting regalia? That is such a sad commentary on the unauthorized wearer himself, it fails to raise any kind of reaction from me. Except pity. If someone really feels the need to wear unearned WB beads, or an Eagle knot, or a Philmont arrowhead, the wearer himself is both offender and victim. Basement, I too have been the recipient of world-class snobbery, primarily because I haven't been to WB. Secondarily, because I'm a military guy who moves alot and is sometimes viewed As Not One Of The Tried and True Oldtimers Of This Particular District. I used to let it bother me. Now I feel sad for the guy or gal trying to tweak my whiskers. If they feel the need to belittle me because they have seven beads and I have none, or because they have lived in the same place for awhile and I haven't, well, that's more about them than me. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

When I earned Eagle in '77, the troop had to buy the kit. National provided a certificate, card and letter. So it's looking like a longstanding tradition. Frankly, I don't think National has an obligation to provide anything other than the paper credentials. There being a variety of options for medals (full Eagle kit or just the medal; basic medal or upgrade to sterling silver), probably best to let the troop and family decide what they want to pay for (or council). The congratulation letter collections are "new" to me. Not sure when they got popular--perhaps the early '90s. My troop provided the medal kit and a Buck knife, an off the shelf folding Ranger, which was a big deal to the scouts.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Basement, I hear what you are saying about extra weight and cost. But it doesn't have to be that way. Many moons ago, as an older scout, I built a survival kit that I still use. Container was an old canvas mil surplus magazine pouch (if memory serves, I found it lying in the grass in an abandoned housing area in Panama). I put in two cheap space blankets, a compass, a pocket knife, magnesium/firestarter bar. Didn't really spend much, most of the items were low-end extras that tend to accumulate over time. I carried it in my pack wherever I went, and if we went on a side hike, or very light/no pack, I could clip the pouch onto my canteen belt and be pack-free, and not have a bunch of stuff rattling around in my pockets. As others said, in addition to the utility of the kit, it's the concept that is compelling to the scouts.

Jay K, good advice. Economy being what it is, Eagle medals are going for a song on ebay right now, compared to what they were a few years ago.

In addition to the actual skill, the scouts'/scouters' credibility is continually tested as well. No one wants to be the former scout that can't start a fire or tie a bowline. "Be prepared" is spot on. It really never ends, and that ain't a bad thing. As Stosh pointed out so well, I use many scout skills from yesteryear each time I'm in the outdoors, be it for scouting or the military.

Noname, I've been in the AF 28 years, and I noticed you make a false assumption that many well-meaning folks make: - Officer = squared away, lots of brains - Enlisted = dead end stooge This is a stereotype perpetuated by Hollywood--as entertaining as "Stripes" was, it doesn't reflect reality. The AF recruits 99%+ with HS diploma each year; a few hundred are recruited with GED. All score in the top 50 percentile on the enterance exams. While the officer corps is primarily leadership and management oriented, every enlisted billet is very technical, with plenty of responsibility required as one advances. And in today's environment--fewer jobs on the outside, higher competition just to enlist, very technical equipment in every career field, high deployment operations tempo--we've got senior airmen and staff sergeants (E-4 and E-5) that have the same level of responsibility a captain may have had twenty years ago. Not putting down the captains...those billets have been moved around to leverage their talent and education, and enlistees have stepped up and taken on duties previously performed by an officer. I've seen the military changed alot over the years...we've got bright young people everywhere, be they lieutenants or Airmen. Sure, they make mistakes and need polishing and grooming just like anyone at that age. But none of them fit the image you are projecting in your posts. Hope this helps.

Well said, P96, great perspective.

Okay, will rephrase: if less than 5% are natural born leaders, what is the point of WB?

Kudu, you're cracking me up! Let's discuss the bugler. Who keeps him in the loop on the plan for what time he bugles, and what calls? And, heaven forbid he doesn't wake up on time, who gets him moving? Some say SM or another adult. I say the SPL. I don't think having an SPL and camping at 300 ft is mutually exclusive. I'm all for the 300 feet principle. But when it's time to interact as a troop, I think the SPL is the one getting things moving.