desertrat77

Basement, from a financial point of view that might work. But there will be no tradition, no sense of "this is my camp." In councils with crummy summer camps this sounds crazy I know. I move around alot, and get to see how various councils do things. The summer camp that is old and still going strong, with people busting down the doors to get in, is one of the best aspects of the scouting experience, it seems to me. The spirit of scouting is strong, folks come back year after year, and on the business side, there seems to be no problem with donations of money or materiel. A camp nearby in my current council is about 70 years old, and they have sessions just for the long-tenured troops that return for decades on end. As far as I can tell, there isn't anything particularly special about the facilities or amenities of this camp. The council puts alot of effort in the camper's experience, to make it memorable, so scouts and scouters can't wait to sign up to go again next year. In camps like this, those young scouts grow up to be businessmen, civic leaders, and such. Very easy for them to donate or raise money for The Old Camp.

...and let us not forget "A Scout is Thrifty"....

I say "yes" The keys to a successful camp: good programming, good food, rich traditions unique to that camp, and good staff. That is what many professional scouters don't get. The new pool and fancy nature lodge--in and of themselves--won't draw more campers In councils with a solid, time honored summer camp, generations of scouts and scouters return for the spirit of the place, not creature comforts. The spirit of scouting, however, cannot be officially measured or tracked in business/management models, so it gets overlooked. PS I don't blame anyone for being frustrated at the money pits that many summer camps have become. Just throwing good money after bad. I hate to see venerable old camps go out of business because a council staff full of MBAs can't ascertain what makes a camp successful. The keys to successful council camps are so obvious but often ignored as "old fashioned" or "quaint."(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Packsaddle, though I advocated FB and texting and all that stuff previously, it was with a heavy heart that I did so. I was just reporting what was happening in my neck of the wood. On a personal level I agree with you. I like old school correspondence and the protocol that goes with it. I regularly carry and use a fountain pen, and have a manual typewriter in my office at home. I often think I was born about forty years too late. However, in my duties as a UC, I've found that 98 percent of the time, the adults I interact with on the pack and troop level will only respond to the text/email/FB jazz. And even then, there's no guarantee they'll acknowledge receipt, call back, etc. They are all solid scouters and good family people. But I know their lives are very busy and it's tough to get them on the phone, and even tougher to get together for a cup coffee. I for one wish life were less complex and packed with events, but I think folks in their 20s and 30s cope by using the instant comms to prioritize and manage their lives.

Structure is important. Even more important is action coupled with a high goal. This transcends mere participation and platitudes. Filling the shoes of civil war reenactors, to literally walk the battlefield of our ancestors...yes, I can see how this would motivate youth. Sitting in a lecture hall listening to a civil war lesson would not achieve the same results. Being on the battlefield brings insight, reflection, and then character development. Same with football. Watching football and talking about it are fun but not motivating. Long practices in snow, rain and mud, that result in victory, and possibly a championship--now we're talking! True also for 4H, ROTC, band, etc. Structure, with a high goal, and mental and physical challenges, help youth accomplish things that amaze everyone. Including themselves. That's also when their character develops. The catch: adult leadership. Pollyanna-ish "everyone is a winner" coupled with dumbing everything down to the least motivated teammate are not ingredients for character building. I'll bet the Sergeant Major was firm but fair, to put it mildly, with the youth that volunteered for reenactor duty. There were standards and expectations, and the youth found out they really like that. Funny how folks always remember the tough coach, teacher, scoutmaster, parent, drill sergeant...we may not appreciate them at the moment, but years later we can comprehend and respect what they were trying to teach us. We always achieved more under their guidance.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Signs of the times.... Some lack courtesy, others are just overwhelmed by the many commitments in life. Moosetracker, in your case, given your sign-off of "what do you think" and then receiving profound silence, indicates one of several things about the addressees: they didn't bother to read your email, or they read it and have no thought, or no courtesy, or both. Even a quick "Interesting, let's discuss" would have been preferable to nothing at all. Looking back on 26+ years in the military, as well as serving in scouting at the district level, I've found this to be true: high levels of education, experience, or rank are no guarantees of common courtesy. I too get a ton of email. But I always hone in first on notes from my boss, my wife and close collegues at work and in scouting...everything else can wait.

Having been a scout and scouter in Arizona, I'm still mystified at our Chief Scout Executive's statements about the Hispanic community and camping. My experience matches Emb's and Sherminator's. Also, fully concur with Sherminator's observation about the "rich kid" appearance of the BSA. Too much Gucci camping gear; expensive, non-utilitarian uniforming; and indoor homework-style badge earning, which are turn offs for many regardless of demographic. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

For kids and young adults, texting and Facebook seem to be their prime methods to communicate. My eldest daughter is in her 20s and considers email very quaint, not unlike the telegraph. Parents...I've noticed that a) having a centralized calendar on line listing all events and b) an email reminder a day or two before a specific event works alright. With busy schedules, "just in time" attention getting is needed, otherwise a scouting event is forgotten under a blizzard of other school and church events, and sports, etc. Facebook is good for this demographic too. Asking for RSVPs is hit or miss. Very little common courtesy in that regard. A few will RSVP, but many either show up without doing so, or RSVP and not show. Sign of the times. Adults/older adults: Interesting that many seasoned scouters are quite adept at modern communication. There may be one or two that have no computer and require a phone call, but it's manageable. A dedicated scouter can assume phone call duty to help the seasoned folks out. Sending letters? Waste of money.

Eagle92, what did you think of the BDU pants? I like the BDU pants in warmer weather...good hiking thru thick brush and such. Tough too. In the cold prefer the old M1951's because they were made with really superb wool.

I second Rover Scout's suggestion of the M1951 wool trousers...they are superb. I had a pair when I was a scout in AK...tough, warm pants.

Basement, it is a big deal, but like Twocubdad said, we don't have enough facts yet to comment.

I agree, Twocubdad.... Terry, thanks for your hospitality!

Concur 100 percent--outdoor adventure is the BSA's time-tested, guaranteed winning recipe. It transcends every fad and theory to the contrary. Of interest, I stumbled across this website, which is a treasure trove of Philmont guidebooks, ranger training guides, trek information, and such, from the beginning up to today: http://philmontdocs.watchu.org/ It is amazing how similar the guidance is from about the '60s onward. Someone figured out what works, and it seems that scouting leadership has careful to preserve the great formula. The biggest change that I've detected in Philmont practices is the transition from using cooking fires for every meal to use of backpacking stoves in the '90s. As a scout who was on an August trek in the '70s (right at the end of the season), I would have welcomed stove use then, as the woods were fairly picked clean of wood near campsites. Otherwise, the same Philmont spirit can be detected in each generation of documents. Kudos to Philmont!

Eagle92, thanks for the information...as for lodge flaps...I've moved three times in the last four years (deep south, east coast, now west coast). A quick summary of OA in my last three councils: 1. Small but active lodge. Signed up and proud to be a member. Lodge had a rich history of service, and of well designed patches and policies. Moved shortly after joining. Darn shame. 2. Small but inactive lodge. Paid my dues at the council office because I could never find anyone in the lodge to talk to or take my dues. The only time I heard from them was when it was time to renew my dues, shortly after I returned from a deployment and was prepping to move the family again. They had several flaps. No lodge events to speak of. 3. Big lodge...fancy flaps...small chapter... Talked to a couple chapter leaders about dues and membership, they promise to get back with me, but no return calls. They meet during our monthly RT, which I will not miss to attend an OA meeting. At this point, they seem to be doing well without my dues or membership, so I'll keep the money and continue to wear my lodge flap from two moves previous. Probably violates a uniform standard somewhere, but hardly matters. Eagle92, sorry I rambled on there, but my point (which admittedly I could have made quicker and less painful!) was that I don't think lodge flaps are the driving force they used to be, either in retaining or attracting membership. Even the honor-specific flaps seem to have little impact (overall). I think the OA is in a serious decline and is a shell of its former self. It sounds like you are in a great lodge, and kudos to you all for keeping the spirit alive. My first lodge mentioned above is keeping the flame bright too. But overall, the wild array of lodge flaps that we see available around the OA isn't doing much for the movement overall. We've kicked the reasons why around in another thread. I'd just encourage you to keep doing what you are doing, it sounds right on target to me. PS. I think the new ordeal members should have a lodge flap!

Rememberschiff, the amazon five star rating is the result of one review, total.... Kind of like having a book about the best NFL quarterbacks and leaving out Johnny Unitas.

Revenge of the "management experts".....

Mr. B, well said.

CC, I think the scout oath and law really come to life in those rugged outdoor moments, moreso than during indoor events. Outdoor adventure is what keeps the scouts coming back for more.

CC, Ask a scout--current or former--their favorite scouting moments. Have you met one yet that said "Gosh, I'll never forget the seven troop meetings that Mr. Smith took to teach the Citizenship in the World merit badge...what a wonderful character building experience!" On the contrary. The memories usually center around: dutch oven cooking...backpacking in the unexpected rainstorm...the night the bear ate all provisions...felling a big tree with an axe...getting the fire started in the snow storm when no one else could...the tough canoe portage...receiving the Philmont Arrowhead patch after the trek.... Outdoor adventure is the BSA's time-honored winning formula. Everything else is just Powerpoint in the camp mess hall.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Skeptic, that was superb...captured perfectly. Thanks for sharing with us.

SM52, I concur. Registration fees and paperwork should reflect scouting magazine yes/no National should add a 13th point and be "efficient"...I haven't received a cy of scouting magazine in over a year...perhaps because I move frequently...Though I update my address with the BSA each time I move.

There are only two ways to do ceremonies: first class or no class. It would be better to have no Native American dances or costumes than to do something half baked. That said, I think Native American culture and traditions are still important to scouting, and the OA specifically. Great topics for conclaves and ordeals.

I think the Order's challenges are but a reflection of today's culture of pursuing personal fulfillment through fun, participation ribbons, and constant unearned praise. These will satisfy temporarily, but provide nothing of lasting value. I went thru tap out and ordeal in the mid '70s. Both events gained my undivided attention. Of everything I learned, the most important was tackling least glorious job...the worst one, that no one wanted. No recognition of any kind comes of it, but by doing it, and doing it well, you've accomplished something that needed to be done, and the private satisfaction of doing it lasts alot longer than any participation ribbon. Sure, there is a place for fun. Right after work. Dinner, then dessert.

Great ideas..... Just a couple of thoughts: 1. OA should revert back to "honor campers" rather than current "honor society." If outing is really what scouting is all about, then the best campers should be the candidates for OA. "Honor society" is too vague and rather lame. 2. Make the ordeal an actual ordeal. Not a death march, but mentally and physically challenging so that when new members don the sash for the first time, they really appreciate what it took to get there. 3. Refocus back to cheerful service.

Great post, and wonderful concept! Proof that "old" does not always equal "outdated" or "obsolete"