desertrat77

"No matter what goes on elsewhere, when you are scouting, you are equal and on the same ground." Scoutfish, that's a statement we can all agree on.

One of the best birthday presents I ever received was the second edition of the Fieldbook...I was a Webelo, and could not wait to join scouts as I read those pages over and over again. So much scoutcraft and adventure. Less than impressed with subsequent editions, for the same reasons others have stated, plus the emphasis on high-priced Gucci gear. I'll pick up the last edition if I see one at a yard sale.

All well and good but trumped by reality. People in a volunteer org will not wear a uniform they don't like.

Lisa is right.

SR540Beaver, That's a good question.... First, I'd try to figure out precisely what image the BSA is trying to portray. With sports uniforms, even if they aren't stylish, they send messages--"I'm on a team, I'm active, I'm an athlete" etc. Also, perhaps because I live on a military base, I see kids wearing their ball uniforms and tae kwon do outfits around base, pre and post game/practice. No one seems to mind. So what image does the current BSA uniform send? What image should it send? I'm an advocate of the BSA's time-honored draw--outdoor adventure. That's the image I'd strive for. Personally, I don't think our current uniform sends that message. Most folks are inclined to leave the uniform at home if they go camping or backpacking. Second, I'd get no-kidding outdoor people to design the uniform...unit level scout and scouters, women and men, parents, non-scouting adventure types, and folks from clothing and recreation industry. The key points would be a) what would you feel proud wearing on a campout, on the bus to jambo, while canoing, and on the trail and b) what already exists in the clothing industry that meets the need. Nothing revolutionary, and I'm sure national has tried to do something of this nature since the green pajama uniform was introduced in '72. Not going to please everyone, but since '72 it seems that most people have been displeased and unimpressed with the uniform. So it's easy, for example, to just ignore it and buy some really cool, sturdy, inexpensive pants elsewhere.

One big difference between sports and scout uniforms: People like sports uniforms. They are proud to wear them. Usually sports uniforms are designed to handle wear and tear. People don't wear BSA uniform, either in full, or in part, because they don't like it. The solution is actually pretty simple. Design a better product, and people will buy it. Uniform theory will not trump the reality, or perception, that the BSA uniform is expensive, ill-designed and not scout proof. The day that the BSA fields a rugged, well designed uniform is the day this debate will wind down.

Basement, well done! Thanks for sharing this good news...the word "legacy" comes to mind.

Indeed, there are many chapters missing to this story.... Does every boy deserve Eagle? No. Did the boy in this case deserve it? Hard to say, we'll need the rest of the data.

GP, I'm an old school guy too, and hike with a BSA yucca. About ten years ago, got a replacement for $9.99 off ebay (mom got rid of my original many moons ago). It has some miles on it, and stains. But it's still rugged and functional. I like the simple design. Holds a bunch of stuff. Interesting that when I hike with the yucca in public settings, folks really respond to it, either for nostalgia's sake, or the simplicity of it. On ebay, the 9.99 yuccas are usually in pretty rough shape, but they may work, like mine You can find a better one closer to 20 bucks. I picked up an extra yucca, almost brand new, for 20 bucks off ebay.

JoeBob, I don't see any value in the official pants, as a clothing item or a "method." Parents want value for their dollar and a product that will last. BSA pants provide neither. I frankly quit advocating BSA pants a few years ago. Just wasn't worth the trouble. A couple councils ago, my DE never wore the BSA pants, even during official events in town. He wore something (don't know the brand) that was dressy enough for meetings and rugged enough for outdoors.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Beavah, well done, thanks! I concur with packsaddle...clear, frank writing is powerful and a welcome change from what organizations normally publish.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Good advice from BS87 and BDPT. Whatever is done, the focus should be on respecting each lodges' past, even if you press on with a new era with new symbols etc. Because if it turns into a hostile takeover, with one lodge shouting down or strong arming the other, bad blood will linger for years.

I agree with Taser! Show your skills...and have fun. If it's done right, there is no downside.

Mulling it over, I think there are two aspects to consider: - However the competition is arranged, it shouldn't demean or upstage the scouts - Whatever the competition might be, is important for scouts to see scouters actually doing something! Very easy for scouts to assume the adults are washed up, sitting around, drinking coffee. To see scouters perform scout skills (fire starting, rowing, running, knot tying, whathaveyou) under pressure, is not only entertaining for the scouts, but also brings respect and motivation. And we are practicing what we preach.

"All that I expect is for the camp (and the program if its summer camp) to be as the council has promised for the fees charged. I expect the facilities to be that of quality. The facilities and the program are for the boys we serve. The camp should be in as good of condition as the renovated Scout office." Abel, that's spot on! Couldn't agree more. Very annoying scenario: camp facilities, whatever they might be, are run down, falling apart more and more, year after year...yet fees continue to rise, with no offsetting benefit of improved programming or food quality(usually these areas decline along with the facilities). Reservists, serving their two weeks of active duty, offer to upgrade plumbing, buildings, everything. They are a civil engineering squadron. They'll provide their own equipment, labor is free. All the council has to do is provide pipe, lumber and gravel. Council says "no thanks." Meanwhile, back in town, the council is moving into new office suites. (Saw this first hand in the '80s.)

Concur, if adults compete it should be adult v. adult only. The competition I described above was scouter only. Though it was a competition that counted towards overall points for the camporee, looking back I think it was more for the entertainment of the scouts than anything else. It only lasted 30 minutes, but the scouters were trying so hard to perform the scout skills, they were screwing more things up than doing them right. Just moving too fast, not communicating with their partner...non stop slapstick! The field was rocking with laughter. The scouters were good sports. Good memory.

Callooh, I'm tracking with you...at scout events, sometimes I catch myself doing the traditional military hand salute in lieu of the scout salute. As you said, a couple decades of habit stay with us.

My favorite...I got to watch as a scout at the fall camporee ('70s).... They told the scouters (two per troop) to show up to the competition area right after lunch. All the other scouts surrounded the field. The scouters were told to bring a pack with a tent, sleeping bags, pots and pans and some specific ingredients for food (pancakes I think). At the start line, everyone finally found out what was up. The scouters had to run to a predesignated area, put up the tent, put the bags inside, take of their shoes and shirts, get in the sleeping bags, then get up, get dressed, start a fire, cook the pancakes from scratch, eat one, have a judge taste it, pack it all up, and run to a finish line. All tasks had to be okay'd by the judges to progress to the next. Best time won. It was a hoot to watch! Some were very skilled. Others suffered from fallen tents, fire too high, pancakes made wrong, sleeping bags coming unravelled off the pack while running, pots and pans fall out of the pack, etc. All in good fun to see the scouters show those basic skills under pressure. Very entertaining! How many would participate today? Depends on the emphasis placed on outdoor skills in each council, district, troop.

Just to clarify, I would take the same position on this issue if the ASM was a plumber or an insurance agent. If they want to wear blue jeans, let them. Granted, it would be minus all my military takes, which in this case, I offer up because we're taking about a military retiree doing the same thing I'd do as a soon-to-be military retiree. Though I personally wear the official pants, if I was in the ASM's shoes and was a blue jean guy, I'd throw that flyer in the trash too. If the ASM was a teacher who insisted on wearing blue jeans, or purple socks, or both, more power to him. Or her. For an organization that has many paid pros and volunteers that are ultra sensitive to avoid anything perceived as military (marching, etc.), is interesting to me how alot of these same well-meaning folks love to embrace a very parade ground/training evironment style of uniform mania. I'd say the BSA has alot bigger fish to fry.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

KC, that's well said. But I must respectfully differ over the scope of what is considered of "boy led." I don't think boy-led means the adults are subordinates of the PLC. Adults should support the PLC, but adults do not salute and obey the PLC as if it issues lawful orders. Scouts do not dictate what adults do. I guess I'm saying there is a line where things go from "boy led" to "boy directed." I'm in favor of the former but not the latter. If I read your post wrong, apologies in advance...heaven knows I've had plenty of high ankle sprains from jumping to conclusions!

Rest assured, a retired Marine officer can comprehend and articulate uniform philosophy. Probably better than most of us can. Seattle is right--leave the guy alone. He's not some clueless newbie. He knows exactly what he is doing. As for the "fairness" and "what will the kids think" crowd--I think you are off base on two points. One, the kids are alot more understanding that you think. As a boy, I had some crusty old scout leaders that had their peculiarities and eccentricities...we scouts just accepted them and pressed on. Rank/Age Has Its Privileges. Two, I believe Beavah said it best--don't treat fellow adults like boys. Boys should not treat adults like their peers. This retired Marine isn't the boys' peer. The boys need to respect that. The adults need to respect the ASM too. Lastly, I don't think the boys will get spun up about this. It will be the adults who have the "uniform itch" or "uniform jones" and love to see everyone all lined up in formation, in their spiffy Centennial uniforms. Trying to relive boot camp or recreate a boot camp they never attended. A fixation/fascination/obssession on uniforming in a volunteer organization is a sign. Bigger issues are going by the wayside, or it shows control/conformity issues, or shallowness of goals, or all of the above. PS As I approach retirement from the military, most of my peers fall into two categories when it comes to uniforms. One, it's a "101" issue, something you learn the second day of boot camp/ROTC/academy/OTS. Wear it right, and let's move on, we've got much bigger issues to deal with. Two, the opposite end of the spectrum, these guys need to run around the base/site/camp and yell "hey you" at every uniform violation seen, because if you can't trust a guy to wear his uniform right, you can't trust him in other things (so they think). I'm squarely in group one. Group two, the uniform gurus, spends alot of time wringing their hands, worrying that the squadron is going to heck in a high speed handbasket because two dudes were seen wearing their stocking hats in the dining facility. In my experience, group two spends alot of time on other shiney objects, and less on substantive issues.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

What to do? Frankly, I recommend no action at all. I was wondering what the ASM's angle might be. I read "retired Marine officer" and then I chuckled. Not at him, nor the Marines, but I suddenly understood his point of view. As I approach 27+ years active duty, though I'm not an officer, I think I understand. After a long career of proudly following strict uniform regulations, as well as enforcing them and, at times, drafting uniform policy, and then discussing the topic endlessly with first sergeants, the last thing I want to do off duty--even in scouting--is get spun up about anything dealing with uniforms. And though I don't know him from Adam's house cat, I would never, ever, try a stunt like buying a retired Marine officer (nor any other adult) a pair of pants, trying to tweak his whiskers. That will no doubt backfire in a quite memorable manner. I'll put money on it. Another thing jumped out--he read the uniform flyer, and then threw it in the trash. Leave it be. He's had a lifetime of uniforming. He's served his country proudly. If his only "yeah but" is the lack of an official, ill fitting set of pants, I don't see a problem. To borrow a thought from Nike, I don't think it's a hill worth taking. All said, he sounds like a great Scouter to me.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Basement, my apologies...I should have sent a PM first.

Basement, talk about an experience ending "not with a bang, but a whimper." Not on your part, but the ticket review dude. But what the heck, you are officially done with WB. You've got my respect. You persevered and that means alot. As a non-WBer, I've followed your WB path closely here at the forum...would welcome any additional thoughts about the program you might have.

Basement, that's good news, keep us posted. And to harken back to a previous discussion about your beading ceremony, please consider doing it at the pack meeting. The cubs will get a kick out of the kudu horn, being helpers during the neckerchief donning, and sharing well wishes.