desertrat77

Eagle92, point well taken. Sometimes a twenty year grudge will exist ("...camp director said X and Y in 1988, and we ain't camping there again!") though its a whole new era, twice over. The GOB networks vary. Some last a couple years, others seem forever. When I was in a particular council (working troop level), that particular GOB council/district network lasted the entire six years I was there. They were very effective in keeping their ranks filled with only hand selected GOBs. Just depends.

Basement, it costs 35 bucks. Couldn't swear to it, but I gotta hunch Jay was chuckling as he typed his last post....

I'm happy to report that my current district and council are very responsive to the needs of units and the folks that serve. I count my blessings every day. However, I can't say that about 2 of my previous 3 councils. In those 2 councils, unit level folks would get a steady diet of disrespect, ranging from neglect to open contempt. Even if you decided to make nice and play the game, it wouldn't matter. They had their club, anyone outside of it was considered "The Great Unwashed." Really quite incredible to live thru something like that. I think Stosh and Basement have the right strategies. Chart your own course at the unit level, or find other organizations that appreciate your time. Great perspective Eagle92, thanks.

Basement, Eagle92 is right, call someone else! You've been thru the course, no need to miss out on finishing it because the staff can't/won't return phone calls.

JoeBob, yes, I believe the knot theory is true in my current council, and my last two. Seems like the red/white/blue knot is usually missing. Related thought: could it be that WB is striving to be the adult equivalent of earning eagle?

As a former scout, I've had big gaps in my scouting service as an adult due to military commitments. I was a scout growing up, and then served for several years as a scouter at the troop level. Towards the end of my tenure, although rewarding, I didn't feel like I was contributing as much, or as committed as I should have been. Just lost interest. So now I'm a UC which matches my travel and work schedule well. It may be alot of former scouts feel that way. They experienced scouting...and while there may be happy memories, they are looking for new adventures in life. Or they are fully committed to their profession, or family, or another service organization that is tied to work or faith. New adventures. So...why do these former scouts act so pesky during training? Good question! Truth is, many training staffers seem to expect trainees to sit quietly in their folding chairs, take lots of notes, and nod in an appreciative manner. This may be why the non prior scouts are beloved by training cadres. It's all new, the trainer is the experienced hand, and everything lands jam side up. Then introduce the former scouts. If you've been a PL, or SPL, you know that scouts don't sit quietly--they will challenge your instruction! Either they outright question you, or bust your chops for the fun of it, or tune out. Wonderful early lessons in how to facilitate a discussion, keep it on track, and still train everyone. So I think many former scouts are used this give and take, but training staffers are looking for a more docile audience. Frankly, if former scouts a) are staying away in droves or b) openly questioning training, the BSA would do well to sit up and take note. Former scouts are the BSA's "product." For good or ill. Three possibilities: - We didn't raise 'em right as scouts - The attitude, salesmanship, and methods of training staff need an overhaul - The course content stinks If you have to beat someone over the head to get them to do something, "they" ain't the problem--it's the salespitch and the product that need scrutiny. Sure, some of those former scouts have a bad attitude. They have a responsibility to fix it. But gotta wonder--how did they get to that point? If we wish to assessment blame, let 50 percent be on the former scouts, and 50 percent on the training cadre attitude of "sit down, shut up, and respect my authority...the course is wonderful because I said it was." I've been in training courses where that was displayed right from the start. The solution is frightfully simple: respect. Both ways. Student to instructor, and (gasp) instructor to student. That former boy or girl scout can add so much to course if the experience is drawn out properly. And it would not threaten the instructors' authority in the least. But if an instructor wishes to pontificate, and convey their disdain for the former scouts, expect the fireworks. The new scouter bring fresh perspectives and keeps the BSA from being hidebound. The former scouts keep the traditions alive, and are living testimony to what really works in scouting. We need both. Good training does exist in the BSA. When it works, it works great.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

SP, I think we agree more than we disagree...my main point: don't hit someone up for thirty five bucks from the get go. Poor salesmanship. Especially in today's economy. It's well worth the effort to get former scouts back into the program. The alum assoc is a good way to do that. However, the entrance fee may be a turn off to many. We'll see.

Got the email and deleted it. Disagree with National's strategy. If they are looking for alumni support, volunteering time or resources, no one should be hit up for 35 dollars from the get-go. Comes across as greedy. Truth is, if former scouts don't join the assoc, they are still former scouts anyway--and it doesn't cost a dime! The goal setters and budget builders at National would rather have 35 bucks today than potentially lifetime of support...if the alum assoc was pitched properly (that is, respectfully), the BSA would gain far more if it didn't come across like it was looking for a buck. Missed opportunity.

I admit up front, haven't read the whole thread, just jumping in..... I believe Venturing will evolve to be the BSA's number one program, its bread and butter, and that traditional boy scouting will fade quite a bit. Why? Youth leadership in the crew isn't hamstrung by timid nor overbearing adult leaders. The crew doesn't have to wear the sack-like scout uniform if they don't want to. They aren't forced by tradition to go tail gate camping at the same place every month. And it's coed. Collectively, we talk a good game about "boy led/youth led"...and Venturing is where it can really happen. Venturing's place in the BSA? A place for scouts to go who are tired of the traditional GSA/BSA program, and still get the benefits of scouting. They can also serve the community and experience the outdoors to the maximum level possible, and not have the bar continually lowered by adults.

Great discussion! Eagle92, great facilitation. Any chance we can talk you into be a paid professional scouter again? The old fieldbooks and handbooks rock. I received the second edition Fieldbook for my tenth birthday, and it's still my favorite scout publication for reference and just casual reading. First edition FB is awesome too.

Basement, I wouldn't suggest planning and executing your own ceremony, but you should certainly have your wishes respected by the WB presenters. I recently saw a beading ceremony that included singing, kudu horn blowing, four speeches by the four WB presenters, etc. The honoree was clearly on board with it. However, someone else may wish for a more subdued or personalized ceremony, and I think those desires should be followed. Please keep us informed on how it goes, Basement, hope your ceremony is exactly as you want it. You've earned it.

Lisabob, all good advice from the previous posts..... Sure, some hard work ahead for the next 30 days but definitely achieveable.

Eagle92, shout on brother! Agree 100 percent. SSScout, good point re the graduation ceremony. I see the same thing in the military when it comes to retirement ceremonies. Lots of folks say "aw, I don't want anything, waste of time, I just want to leave with no fuss." Etc. Etc. Truth is, everyone needs some kind of capstone to a big accomplishment. It can be tailored any way that suits them, but many folks secretly want it but won't say. There have been some military retirees that got their wish--they wanted no ceremony and sure enough, the squadron did nothing. Regrets are inevitable for both parties. The ceremony is about the honoree, yes. But not completely. It's also about the family, friends and comrades who helped along the way and want to pay their respects. So Basement, please consider Eagle92's great idea of having those beads presented at a pack meeting. Ask some cubs to be part of the ceremony. They'll get a kick out of it and never forget it.

How did BP, Green Bar Bill, and 100 years of scoutmasters and den moms, ever get anything done in scouting without all this "Leadership Science?" And surely these well-meaning men and women of yesteryear must have fumbled about, clueless, without the profound insights provided by attending Woodbadge for the 21st Century. The sheer quantity of "leadership/management" courses does not translate into actual leadership skill. Mainly because these classes are taught in a classroom, or camp meeting hall, by people who would rather be indoors than outside. Plenty of cocoa, and lots of soothing powerpoint presentations, which always start with a hilarious, knee slapping video clip as the "attention getting step." Lots of talk, a few games to "reinforce" the concepts, and gosh, look at the time, get ready for dinner and the diploma presentation. Yep, that's leadership! We have lots of folks that have the certificate to prove they are leaders. Actual accomplishments, of course, are optional. Specifically for the BSA, an organization whose winning formula is "scouting is outing" experience and leadership in the outdoors is optional as well.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

This discussion highlights the benefits and weaknesses of policy--specifically, the people who recommend it, draft it, publish it, read it, attempt to interpret it, and implement it. Not all policy is created equal. It takes discernment at all stages, which is a very rare quality. Otherwise, bad policy can hamstring an organization to the point of inertia. Beavah's comments are 100 percent on target.

To progress, the scout has to do the eagle project. More than anything, this will be the deciding factor, for good or ill.

Must have a frank talk with each party (separately though) and lay down the law. If they can't conduct themselves in a scoutlike manner, then they should to do the right thing and take a hiatus from scouting. If they can't find the willpower to do it themselves, then they need to be shown the door. Many of the scouts deal with discord at home, they don't need extra helpings of it at scout events.

I concur with KC9, the root concern of the case seems to runs deeper than just the party.

SP, if I'm tracking correctly, I agree that it can be tough to see the cubs leave a competition with long faces, sad, upset, etc., because they didn't win. A couple times, many years ago, I was one of those cubs who didn't win and was not happy about it. Frankly, losing as a cub was one of the most fortunate things to ever happen to me. Once I thought about it, I realized that I didn't like losing. So I'd prepare and do my best to get ready, and then give it everything I had. Rough but good experience for the future, when I crossed over as scout then entered adulthood. Could I have got the same lesson as an older scout? Perhaps. Personally, I'm glad I got my lesson at age nine, rather than at 12 years. That early "sting" of defeat helped motivate me to start living up to my personal potential, which is important whether we win or not.

Stosh, great commentary.... A few thoughts from a career AF guy. While your friend in survival training didn't get a medal for being first back to the base, he got something that may have been worth as much--positive attention from the training cadre ("Back by zero six? Not bad.") and his peers. Whether by word of mouth, training report comments, or a course honor grad program, great performances find their way back to supervisors and commanders. Which translates to better annual performance reports, considerations for special duty assignments, etc. Will being the first back to base automatically guarantee all this? No. But the spirit of excellence, and yes, competition, runs through many folks in uniform, and a solid accumulation of great performances can help a servicemember get ahead. On the enlisted side, you compete for promotion against your peers in your career field. In professional military education, some students compete for distinguished grad awards. Many get degrees off duty to make their records more competitive for promotion. While there may be no outright winner in a sense, for those who want positions of higher responsibility, more challenging duty, retraining into another speciality, or just for the personal satisfaction of getting that next stripe (more money), the competitive spirit will motivate folks to study after duty hours or work longer while everyone else is relaxing. Because there is a finite number of promotions, or special duties, available each year.

SP, a small but important distinction--the competition methods were the pack's, not my own (I'm their UC). As you know, the UC is the unit's friend. I would have professionally supported either method, your's or their's, if that is the direction the unit wanted to go. In the pack I'm associated with, the event was well organized, moved along quickly, conducted in good spirit, and went fine overall. True, there are places where the opposite happens, as in the examples you cited. But I don't think these are reasons to scuttle competition. As long as parents, scout leaders and scouts know the standards up front, and these standards are enforced, it is possible to conduct healthy competition.

SP, I respectfully differ...the cubs can handle win/lose, trophy/no trophy, if it is handled properly. But we are up against a couple decades of zero competition anywhere. So some may indeed feel the sting of losing because it's foriegn. After all, this is the age of "all ball games end in a tie" for youth soccer up to a certain age. The problem, often, is the parents, who bring their baggage to scouting events. Either win at all cost, or insist on "play time" instead of competition to avoid hurt feelings. In the pack I am UC for, they had a pinewood derby with elimination rounds, first/second/third place, etc. It went well, no problems for cubs or parents. In fact, one of the cubs who finished well done the stretch had the roughest, most primitive car there. His dad was deployed, and mom hand no previous pinewood experience, so the cub's car was truly his. Without weights and other scientific advances, his car smoked a bunch of "dad inspired" cars. This cub's confidence in his ability to achieve was bolstered, and the other cubs who relied heavily on dad to build their car learned something too. Play time has its moments, but measured, age-appropriate win/lose moments are good lessons for cubs too.

Wingnut, that judge obviously had zero judgment...I can imagine the conversation your scout leaders had with him. A fall that shatters your hip--whew, that is brutal!(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

SP, I'd say cubs should have competition, yes. Though not as complex, or mentally or physically challenging, as at the boy scout level. Invaluable lessons in preparation, task focus, sportsmanship, the ability to self critique, to value earned achievement--providing the cubs a safe environment to experience these things will help them as they age.

Eagle 92, they can be, and many still are. But I've also seen the subtle trend of the events being just something you do...scouts not prepared, going thru the motions, not much enthusiasm. More of a round robin refresher course than a competition where the scouts used the preceeding patrol and troop meetings to hone the specific skills needed to really compete at the camporee. PS My previous post was geared more toward my opinion about competition in general, and not specifically scouting. But I think the participation ribbon theory has influenced scouting as well.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)