desertrat77

Stosh, excellent question. I think I could have written my previous better. My SM didn't direct me but simply said "you're in charge.". So I led the patrol leaders through annual planning, getting ready for campouts, running the meetings from start to finish etc. If it went right he didn't say much. If I screwed up I heard about it. As the months went by things clicked and I found my stride. He never said or did anything that I couldn't do myself, to borrow a phrase. As in your example, He was always there, the kids knew him, but if they asked him where an axe was or where the next court of honor etc he'd always smile and say "did you ask your PL?". If a PL asked him a question he'd send them to me. Lots work but wow what a learning experience.(This message has been edited by Desertrat77)

Shortridge, good point...to which I'd say the SPL is guy the keeps the train on the tracks. In troops that I see with no SPL, the SM is the go-to guy, checking on things, fielding questions from this PL, then the QM, setting up schedules, etc. Generally making him/herself indispensable. I'm a bit biased based on my experience as an SPL years ago. My SM was very much in charge, but held me responsible for everything--planning, organizing, executing troop meetings to campouts to day hikes. It was a full time job. I made plenty of mistakes, and the SM let me know exactly what I did wrong and how to improve. Privately. For a year plus, it was probably one of the toughest yet most rewarding leadership labs I've been thru, before or since. I think Eagledad said it best, now that I reflect back--the SM was training me, the SPL, to be to be a SM. Eagledad, well said. If the SPL isn't going to be a protege of the SM, then sure, it's a waste of time for everyone involved. But if the SPL is treated like an adult, with the proper expectations, it can be the best youth job in the troop, aside from PL. But if the SM can't resist being the go-to guy/gal, well, sure, spare some Life/Star scout the trouble of being the SPL, and find something else for them to do. Odds are it won't be as good as being an SPL.

If only 5% has the ability to lead, what's the point of Woodbadge? Seems like alot of effort to teach leadership skills to folks, the majority of whom will never truly benefit from the concepts.

Eagledad, I'll grant you that many unit leaders need training and are headstrong...but frankly, I expect district and council folks to be a little more astute in how they handle this. Often, The Good Old Boys at district and council seek to stifle the leaders who DO know what they are doing, because they won't line up and a) kiss the ring, b) sheepishly buy into "this is how we do it here."

The SPL, if employed properly, isn't running anyone's patrol! During meetings and troop activities in the outdoors, the SPL gets the bugler up, walks the rounds to the patrol leaders to make sure things are on track, runs the flag ceremonies, games, sets up training schedules, in a word, everything...and reports back to the SM, who is very much present but saying very little aside from a SM moment or such. Show me a troop with more than one patrol that has no SPL, and I'll show you a SM who is playing SPL....

Excellent suggestion, Eagle92...govt surplus gear can still provide many years of service. Plus, if it's "GI proof" it's "scout proof."

Trainerlady, sorry to hear that...frankly, it sounds just as much a failure of adult leadership as the role of SPL itself. The SPLs act that way because they are allowed to.

Basement, kudos for voting that UC off the island...a good walk up call for him and his chums.

KC9DDI, that's true. But National sets the tone, just as any corporate hq will do. National's priorities eventually ripple to the units, for good or ill, and will directly impact what kind of volunteers step forward, what councils spend their money on, etc. If we are speaking of the BSA being relevant, and something that fills a need, what is the "product" they are pushing? I think that's what I'm trying to get at.

Basement, it's not all that expensive...in our troop in AK, each scout was issued two of the old chicken feather GI mummy bags. None of these bags were in great shape and had seen better days...but if you stuff one inside the other, the two bags will keep you warm even in the coldest of weather. Plus you could keep your canteen and next day's socks zipped in between the two, nice and warm in the morning. Most scouts had basic snow boots, some decent mittens, and wool GI surplus pants. Everything else was stuff they'd wear in town to go sledding or school (stocking cap, thermals, shirts). Only a couple of the kids had fancy/high end/expensive gear. Every one else made do, and we all camped once a month, regardless of the weather.

Having been a UC in four different councils over the years, I've never done a uniform inspection, nor do I intend to. Yes, I'm trained. But I won't do it. If a troop wants an inspection, that's something the SPL and PLs should do. Having the UC inspect is a leftover tradition for yesteryear that can fade away.

I concur with Acco, it was not a patrol campout. Mr. SPL needs some friendly advice on what his boundaries are. And he should be encouraged to leave the MREs at home. Runs counter to what the patrols are trying to learn. If they see a senior scout not preparing food, cooking, cleaning, they will get the message that their efforts are just square fillers, or a rite of passage, because it's all n/a for senior scouts.

I'm sure there are some generic patches out there. Usually, it's a local thing. As a scout in the old Western Alaska Council, we could earn a 100 below patch (designed and stocked by the council), where you accumulate 1 point for every degree below 32F each night you camped. Once you got 100, you get the patch. The old timers could trump this, as old timers often do. A year or so previous to me moving to AK, the points only accumulated for camping overnight below 0F, which makes it alot tougher to get. Many of the older scouts spoke of watching the weather reports to see if below zero temps were forecasted for that night...if so, they rallied for a short-notice patrol-leader led campout in the woods about three miles away...even on school nights! My diversion aside, kudos for taking the scouts camping. They will never forget it, including the spicy sausage breakfast!

Beavah and JMHawkins, excellent points. There is indeed a seam in what the BSA provides and what kids really want. Kids love the outdoors. And many like the idea of progressing thru some kind of advancement program. The organization that can capitalize on these is going to take off. Sadly, the BSA has historical excellence in both categories--outdoors and advancement. Seems to me, thought, that National has greatly favored advancement over the outdoors for the last several years. Which is too bad. Sure, it's easier to track "progress" and "growth" if you are a bean counter and comparing stats. In BSA's glory years, outdoors was first and advancement wasn't the lockstep/drag 'em across the goal line thing that it is now. Two hypothetical scouts: a) Star/Life scout, SPL, very active, with much outdoor experience, good scoutcraft instructor...camporees, summer camps, 50 milers...looked up to by all scouts b) Eagle scout, Scribe, camped only when he had to, went to summer camp once and spent the entire time sitting at the picnic table, working on 12 MBs with the ultimate goal of earning all MBs available before turning 18. If National had an "ideal" scout in mind, as a true representative of the program, which scout would it be? In years past, it would have been scout A. I don't think so any more. The days of the outdoor adventurer being the ideal scout OR scouter is long gone. Thing is, outdoor adventure is not obsolete, nor undesired. It's our very best product that can be offered, yet generally speaking it is put on the shelf.

In a small troop, not needed. In anything larger, needed IF the troop is truly boy led...the SPL is the liaison between the boys and the adults. Ideally, the SPL orchestrates every event, with minimal words from the SM to the scouts directly. In many troops, the SM or an ASM perform the duties of the SPL, with constant interaction with the PLs. If handled properly, the SPL role is a good one to learn how to lead the PLs and work directly with adults.

I think we need the BSA. However, we don't the BSA as it is currently organized. Alot of expensive overhead that provides little benefit to where scouting really takes place--the pack, troop, crew, ship, team.

Callooh, though I'm partial to Eengonyama, after watching the video, I must admit you are correct, good sir. It would be a much better video, though, if all that soccer crap was deleted, and replaced with footage of placid hippos in rivers, or munching on grass at sunset....

Scoutfish, after reflecting on your essay, may I recommend a long walk in the woods, whilst singing a venerable scout song that BP learned from the Zulus, "Eengonyama" See song one at the link: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/songs/war_songs.htm Kudos to Kudu for capturing it!

I concur with Beavah, 100 percent. Adults are supposed to demonstrate prudence, maturity, and the ability to analyze complex situations. And then make rational decisions that considers all facets of the siutation. Scouts imprint from the decisions leaders make. The scouts will never learn sound decision making skills if the adults in their life a) are too intellectually lazy to grasp the difference between a crime and mistake, b) are too chicken to sort things out and defer instead to "CYA" rote formulae in every situation and c) have no sense of mercy. There are times when the cops need to be called. More often than not, they don't need to be called. Many other courses of action that are appropriate to handle the situation so that all parties--the wrongdoer, the wronged, parents, authorities, the press, whatever--are satisfied that justice was served. Ah, but this takes time, experience, and yes, courage, to execute properly. Not everything can be reduced to a guide card or a powerpoint presentation.

OGE, thanks for sharing that! On our trip, after splashing about in the aforementioned Bright Angel Creek, I was walking along the bank and nearly stepped on a coral snake. I backed away slowly, called my buddies, returned to look but the snake was gone. Also enjoyed the visual passage of geologic time...hiking down the south rim, the fine powered dust on the trail rose up and coated your legs different colors every so often. Can't forget Mule/Human Courtesy 101: if hikers encounter a mule train, the hikers take the outside of trail and stand still while the mules pass, even if you are standing on the edge of a killer drop off. Every so often a mule would snort, swish his tail your face, or jump around a bit. "Remain calm, all is well...."(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Traditions vary, but I'm with those who say wear the lodge flap that was issued when you joined. Collecting the older flaps is fun, but wearing a flap from a era previous to your own is not usually practiced. I like to see the old timers wearing their old lodge flaps...great conversation starters and truly living history.

Lots of good advice.... The only thing I'll add is, whatever process you employ, follow Eagledad's advice and get the new scouts up to speed sooner than later. Confidence is indeed the key. In my experience, the main drawback of the new scout patrol is that it can turn into an extended day care...new scouts get segregated for too long, ala "leper colony", and aside from a guide or two, the older scouts aren't teaching scoutcraft or otherwise influencing the new scouts for the better. This demoralizes the new scouts because they don't really feel like a full fledged member of the troop. And the senior scouts are just shooting the breeze with each other. Take away those training wheels as soon as possible!

I did my first 50 miler as a scout in the Grand Canyon. About six or seven days on the trail. Rim-rim-rim...started at the south rim, hiked along the bottom for awhile, up the north rim, back down, and then up south rim again. About 56 miles total. Beautiful. And absolutely exhausting! Very challenging hike. Glad we went. Super glad when it was over!

Skeptic, I understand your point. Lots of good info that is non-BSA. But in an organization that espouses "outing" as its primary selling point, you'd think National would put more adventure and campfire smoke into its literature.

I was an airman first class, watching the tragedy on the old TV in the dormitory dayroom. Waiting for a ride to the airport, headed to Ft Bragg to participate in Exercise Gallant Knight 86. Very sad. Seems like yesterday. A toast in honor of the Seven Astronauts...they will not be forgotten.