desertrat77

The speech was superb, and applies to the entire nation.

Eagledad raises a good point. Scouting doesn't need to be a overly-structured, adult-driven, logistics-intensive, high-cost program. The last troop I was in as a scout was along the lines of Eagledad's example. The SM was usually the sole adult (long before 2 deep leadership rules), and there were a couple of adults in the background taking care of advancement and such. Being in Alaska, we'd camp once a month, no matter what the weather. Meet at the scout building, and we'd backpack to the campsite (couple miles away). Hike led by SPL. The SM would meet us at the campsite. A couple dads would drop off some of the heavy gear and leave. Might be tougher to do in an urban area, but it can be figured out.

SP is right. The further we move away from the 1800's, Native American culture is much less in the thoughts of most Americans. While it is quite important to individual tribes, and parts of the OA, it just doesn't register with most younger folks. I attribute this to the decline of Westerns in the movie theater. The old cowboy movies didn't always portray Native Americans in a respectful or accurate manner, but some did, and as long as Westerns were popular, I think Indian Lore resonnated with many scouts. Not so any more. What to replace it with? I don't think we need to retire Indian Lore entirely. I think the principles are sound and time honored. I would put strict requirements on costuming for ceremonies, memorization and delivery of lines, and dance teams. Better to conduct the ceremony with everyone in scout uniform than have a half-baked attempt at Native American culture.

The bar is very high for proper Indian garb and ceremonies...anything less than stellar is laughable and an insult. No middle ground. Some lodges do their best to respect Native American culture. The problem is just as many other lodges have a footlocker of old crappy costumes they pull out during ordeal weekend, mumble thru their lines, thus sullying the whole ideal There was a time the BSA took Indian Lore very seriously...check the literature from the 30s and 40s, and just not OA.

Fred, in the three councils I was in as a youth (two in the states, one overseas), I recall no hype, no bandwagon, etc, for earning Eagle. And nothing from National, except a mention in the handbook. The prevailing attitude was "you want Eagle, better get to work." Concur, Eagle92, the "one and done" ideal is misguided, produces weak scouts and scouters, and encourages pencil whipping of requirements. That is a big change from the past. Once you learned a skill, you can bet you were tested again and again, during patrol competition at troop meetings, during every board of review for subsequent ranks, and while you taught the skill to others. Your SM was watching and if you didn't remember something, you were going to hear about it. I realize that is all ancient history. After all, we must not hurt feelings, because a scout's positive self image is the most important thing. Which is baloney. The scouts are far more intelligent and capable than many adults think. It's the adults who are often on shaky ground for self confidence, and then tend to coddle rather than challenge.

As a '70s era scout, I can offer a few differences between then and now. In the '70s, Eagle rank had prestige, but there was almost none of the hype that you see from National today. In fact, I don't recall any Eagle hype. If you earned it, great. If not, that's okay, I hope you enjoyed camping and being in the troop. Despite the fact a scout could theoretically earn Eagle without camping, I don't remember one that did. The seasoned scouters that lead the various troops I was in were big on the outdoors. Why do scouts wait till the last minute to finish Eagle today? I think earning the rank is much more tedious, in the administrative sense, that it was back in the day. It's always been difficult to earn, but there is alot more red tape today, it seems to me. I think today's Eagles are avoiding the hassles until they absolutely have to sit down and deal with it. Seems more of a chore today than a journey. Regardless of how old they are, more scouts are earning Eagle. College apps, driven parents, and MB universities will not wait! Gotta fill that binder full of congratulations letters from people who don't know you!(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Frank, good point! Any seasoned military vet, especially one who is a post commander, is familiar with the colorful phrase for such nitpicking about uniforms--two words, first one is "chicken" and the second begins with "S"...and the "s" doesn't stand for "salad."

Basement, your post struck a cord.... As a scout and scouter, I too have benefited from the fellowship and wisdom of the men in group 1. Indeed, it is tough to attend a funeral for one of them. And you are right, they are far and few between. I think back to my scouting days, and what I would give for the opportunity to sit down again and have a cup of coffee with the leaders who came up in scouting early days. You are spot on about group 2--they consider their corner of the BSA is their private club. Group 2 isn't worthy to even carry Group 1's yucca pack.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

People are willing to wear a uniform they think is a) functional, b) affordable and c) something they are proud of. For many, the current BSA uniform is d) none of the above. You can badger people into wearing a uniform. But that is the lowest form of promoting any uniform. Even in the military, hitting people over the head with the regulation will gain nothing but begruding compliance. And then noncompliance as soon as your back is turned. For sustained, willful, cheerful, enthusiastic uniforming, there must be pride and mutual respect. Especially in a volunteer organization where the uniform isn't required. Some folks have a "uniform itch" that is "scratched" by their involvement in the BSA. Many of these folks mean well, but come across just as BadenP described: "militaristic self important attitudes." The uniform is a means to an end, not the end. Wearing a complete uniform is beneficial but it sure isn't the ultimate goal, any more than sewing on the Magical Ring of World Peace patch(or whatevertheheck that thing is) with officially identify a scout as an ambassador of world peace. The uniform doesn't make the scout. Ultimately it's the instilled values of scouting that make the scout. I had two SMs from my scouting days that were "open ranks march" martinets. They had their good qualities, but their over the top zeal for small stuff at the expense of big stuff showed in other areas too. On the other hand, I had one SM who was very strict but said nothing about uniforms. He wore his properly, and so the did the scouts. He was afforded the highest respect, because he respected us. The aforementioned martinets? Not so much.

I've seen scouts and scouters in AM legion sponored units wear the emblem patches. If memory serves, usually on or above the wearer's right pocket. Or on the wearer's right sleeve. Seen similiar patches for Lion's Club sponsored troops too. I recommend discussing with unit and AM leadership, agree on a common location, and sew them on. Lots of folks will tell you can't do it, because it's unusual, or not in accordance with the insignia guide. But it really doesn't matter. The AM patch does not bring discredit to the BSA uniform. And they sponsor scouting. Your unit's relationship with the AM is most important one you've got. Let the naysayers nay say, and press on with pride.

Go for it! You'll learn a little more each time. Enjoy.

It's one of my favorite quotes too, though for a different reason. I think it's evidence of someone who can't separate what's important from what's not. Mr West was wrapped waaaaay too tight. "Conscious" improper wear of the neckerchief "breeds disrespect for law and order." And he uses the word "anxious" twice. That's a quite a leap, and perfect insight to the uniform police mentality--people who willingly don't wear a scout uniform right are scofflaws. What a hoot!

Adventure in the great outdoors is the BSA's best selling point.

Good points, all...I had forgotten about the rehash of the on-line guide. That was tolerable compared to the endless stream of questions from some of the scouters (easily 100 in attendance). Some general categories of listener pain: - Questions that were part of the briefing, and the guide, but asked anyway - Questions that had already been asked by another scouter earlier, and answered by the staff, but asked again by another scouter anyway - Questions that were rare cases/off the wall/esoteric what-ifs, presented in painful detail, that should have been dealt with one-on-one with staff afterwards, but were presented in front of the entire group, with the rabbit duly chased until it was dead, 10 mins later After 2 hours I got up and left.

I like Barry's idea of sending the SPL. He can take notes and later brief the adults, and the PL. Agreed with the previous posts...either poor comm on the camp's part that big changes were going to be briefed, and folks, even the old timers, needed to show up. Or the long-time scouters knew they could figure out what's up pretty quickly without taking time away from something else to go to the meeting.

John, good point, and guilty as charged. Might be time to circle back, and have some pie and coffee.

BSA24, well said, thanks.

Acco, we weren't discussing "wear whatever tab you wish with whatever position you wish"...I think that's obvious. My position is that the entire concept of having tabs/loops/epaulets to distinguish folks is vanity...ego-centric, if I may borrow a phrase. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Oak Tree, that's a good question--why would they want to squash it? I can't answer that either. I just know from long experience that there are people who are more interested in preserving and protecting SOLELY administrative processes than the welfare of the people those processes are designed to alledged support. Their legacy is "no, the rule book is more important." The kicker--they'll get a secret delight from it. Others will have a legacy like the one you mentioned--after the board and before camp, giving Johnny an Eagle patch (even an old used one) and saying "we leave for camp in less than 12 hours, you better find your sewing kit." The latter is a far better legacy for all concerned.

Bobwhite89, well said.

Again, paperwork. The notion that National owns the Eagle award isn't as important as the reality that Johnny was an Eagle after the board met. No scout should wait for earned rank--particularly Eagle--while paperwork is being processed.

Acco, Whatever the name of the things, why do we need to distinguish between cubs, district, etc.? Does it really matter? And if it does, why aren't position patches adequate?

But in the eyes of the council, the troop, the scout and his family, he was an Eagle the moment the board chair said "Congratulations, Johnny Scout, you've passed your Eagle board." National will process the paperwork in due time. Key word: paperwork. The "real" part of scouting happened the previous several years in the troop. Where it really counts.

Right, sure guys...we all know blindly following and quoting an administrative process is paramount, far more important than the scouts the process is designed to support.

SAR MB--great news, made my day.