desertrat77

Explorer design was my favorite! Every now and again, you can find old canvas BSA tents on the big auction site. Several years ago, I got a Miner's and a Overnighter. Still use them.

I think I've walked a mile in your shoes, both in scouting and my career.... One of the toughest things I've learned in life is to say "no" to organizations and people, even worthy causes. I learned the hard way at one point, because trying to be all things, to all people, nearly cost me everything--health, family, career. A frank talk with the adults of the troop might help, but I seriously doubt it would change anything. A short flurry of appreciation, but then back to the ways things were. I'd recommend taking a six month hiatus from your ASM duties. Be firm, don't let them talk you out of it. The troop won't fall apart. Sure, there will be lots of inefficiency and such, but it will wake up some parents and the SM. Of course, the adults will try to talk you out of it. Stick to your guns. Take that time to get the other areas of your life squared away. Rediscover hobbies. Go for a walk for the sheer enjoyment of it. Best wishes.

Best wishes apothecus...even more important than particular roles/patches, is getting the scouts outdoors as often as possible. There are any number of ways to organize, but troops that grow, and stay alive, are troops that are hiking and camping.

First round is on me....

Well said....

In my experience, the SPL works closely with the PLs and scouts, and the JASM much less so--he is a graduated SPL who is mentoring the SPL and is learning the ropes to become an ASM. After reading Kudu's post earlier, I've revised my thoughts--focus on building a patrol first...the PL role is the most important at this point. Whatever plan the troop follows, correctly establishing the roles and responsibilities of the scout leadership positions is vital. A young scout will know what to aspire to.

Upon reflection..... Kudu, well said. Given the number of scouts, and the opportunity to use the Green Bar patrol ideals with fresh minds, emphasis on the patrol is the way to go.

Right now, no one in the troop will care much about the patch. But if the new scouts see a senior scout as SPL, and what he brings to the troop, they can attach some credence to the patch. Something for them to aspire to, and establish troop culture.

Sounds like he wants to lead, which is a good thing. I'd ask him to be the first SPL in the new troop. As a graduated SPL, his experience would be invaluable. He can train the new PLs, and set them up for SPL duties in the future. Then he can get the JASM patch. Just a hunch, but I doubt he would be very motivated by being anything that isn't "line" leadership. Probably the only reason he's asking to be JASM is he sees it as a natural progression toward SM, and something a graduated SPL would do. For a new troop, a strong SPL is more important than a JASM. Once a new generation of PLs/SPLs is ready, he'll be ready for JASM. As a scout, I found the SPL duties very challenging yet rewarding. The SM did not interact with the scouts much, except at strategic times. He was there at the start of the meeting, and the close. In the outdoors, he stayed in the background. When I moved to JASM, I was training the new SPL and the SM was training me to be an ASM. Worked out pretty good.

"I'd never met one who admitted to it until my son got involved in Scouting." Engineer, it's called humility.

As a guy who worked on his Eagle project 35 years ago, without a license, here's my take: if you want your license, obey your parents and finish Eagle first. Yes, I know that is precisely what you said you didn't want to hear. But it's the only answer, and one you must accept gracefully, if you are going to live up to the Oath and Law. I've met several adult Eagles (and one Gold Award) over the years who were under the same parental requirement. All of them said the same thing: they didn't like it at the time, but with time came wisdom, and they grew to understand what their parents were trying to impart. Parents have their reasons. You may not agree with it, but you must obey and respect it. Your ability to drive four wheelers in the woods has little bearing on your ability to drive on the road. Over the years, I've been to waaaaaay too many funerals of teens and 20-somethings that thought they were bullet-proof and invincible on a motorcycle or behind the wheel of a car. Part of being an adult is learning to accept the word "no" with dignity. Not an easy thing to do. But it's an invaluable skill to learn, because you'll hear it throughout your life, even in the pursuit of things that are right and proper and for the benefit of others. There are times you work thru "no" (or the second or third "no") and times you just accept the facts and move on. In this case, if your parents say no, the only answer is yes sir/yes ma'am, keep your poise, zero carping, and knock out that project and those last MBs (citizenships, I presume?). Best wishes.

Basement, kudos for how you dealt with this situation. The words that jump out at me: solid as SPL, growing. So while his decision and attitude were unsat, this may be a one-time incident for him. Especially since you gave him frank feedback, and mom isn't letting him off the hook.

Eagle 92, I think Twocubdad summed it up well. Trust your instincts. I think you are on the right path.

Add my vote for cutting bait and leaving the toxic first troop as soon as possible. As long as CC/mommy is sweeping her son's path, and has the SM in her hip pocket, your son will get no justice or peace there. Sounds like troop 2 is the way to go. Best wishes to you and your son.

Well said....

It's how the Eagle lives his life after the court of honor that matters most. Whatever path he took to earn it--hands-off parents, or parents dragging him by the collar thru the ranks, or the extra scrutiny as the SM's kid--it's all challenging, just in different ways. As I look back, my parents were supportive but hands-off, but I always felt bad for the kid with the pushy parents. Those kids never had a chance to breathe and were forever being hit over the head with the scout handbook by mummy/daddy. They earned Eagle whether they wanted to or not, but they sure didn't seem that happy when they did. In fact, we all know a few that purposely sabotaged earning Eagle, just because.

Welcome! I think we need more info about your sash...what is your concern?

Barry, I think you said the key--"adult training." It's important that adults be trained...the skills and introduction to scouting are vital. But two things can happen. One, folks avoid training. Two, if folks show up, the training isn't beneficial (lots of time sitting on bench, listening) or the new volunteers are turned off by the condescending attitudes of the training cadre. Training cadres can really put new volunteers off with the "we're the good olde boys and you're the newbies" routine. Training aside, if the old scouters insist on keeping their exclusive club, it will discourage new leaders from making long term commitments to scouting. Many threads here about "no WB beads/no respect." Mutual respect is important. The old timers need to bring new folks on board and treat them as equals and instill scouting values for the next generation of leaders. New folks need to take the time and understand the old values, and not discard the old ways just because they are old.

If the cubs are going to leave because of the absence of belt loops, odds are the programming wasn't strong to begin with........

Not only are the square ones historical (BSA used them for decades), they are far more practical, as Stosh said. The modern triangle neckerchief is okay if you want to roll it up and look sharp, but it's too small for anything useful in the field and the material is non-absorbent. Selling points for the square: usefulness (much larger size for cravats, bandana, etc.); comfort (the troop can pick whatever material and pattern they wish...something with natural fibers); style (tough to roll a big square one to the nth degree, so wear it loosely like yesteryear)...and the scouts might actually wear them! I'm in a hurry and must run, but there is a thread here from a few years ago that gave instructions on how to make your own homemade larger neckerchiefs...good stuff. Pick the material, cut, sew...something can be done in-house.

Sounds like everything was operating the way it should be. The SPL was exercising oversight, the scouts were active outdoors and showing resilience in cold weather. Mr. Safety ASM is being too overprotective.

Schiff, good points...my nostalgia is only helpful to a point. The situation in your neck of the woods is the reality in many places in the BSA, these days. Not as many troops, not as many patrols, and when the uberscouts beat everyone, heck, they aren't beating 30 patrols as in camporees past, but just a handful. Thanks for the perspective check.

Schiff, I'd like to respectfully offer the flip slide of the scenario. If I was in the distant second patrol and the uberscouts declined 1st place and gave it to my patrol, I wouldn't like it. It would seem patronizing. They won and I wouldn't want their sympathy gesture. Granted, my PL days are almost four decades distant, but I remember those hyper-competitive camporees quite well. If we lost fair/square, we lost, shrug it off and go back to camp for cocoa and baked apples. But if we detected some kind of adult-inspired shenanigans that stacked the deck so that the wins were spread to prevent hard feelings, ironically enough, that was when the hard feelings appeared.

When my kids were younger, they played soccer and basketball in those "all scores tied/everyone gets a ribbon" leagues, and believe me, no one was happy, especially the kids. Even the youngest seemed to know that they won, but were not allowed to celebrate it because of the overbearing treacle from parents and officials about "no you didn't win, we are all winners." At best, the kids played in a ho-hum manner...after all, why hustle? A table loaded with participation ribbons awaited for all. Sure, when my kids got older and moved to win/lose leagues, there were some hurt feelings about tough losses, poor calls by officials, etc. But they learned to deal with adversity, overcoming obstacles, good sportsmanship whether you win or lose, and the like. They became more resilient. If a patrol has the gumption to figure out a way to win, they'll do so. If they want to sit around and sing the blues, so be it. As adults, we give them an opportunities to succeed or fail. When kids succeed without gimmicks, or adults stacking the deck in the kids' favor, only then will the kids truly know the meaning of the word "success." Even if they strive and fail, they've learned something, namely, that adults aren't going to constantly be sweeping their path in life.

Glad they are departing. A good lesson to learn early in life: every experience, or newly learned skill, doesn't always result in a gold star, belt loop, patch or pin.