desertrat77

Guy, I think the resistance is there, and has been for years. Dating back to the '70s, there are factions of BSA pros and vols that simply don't like the outdoors. They like wearing the uniform, attending conferences and meetings, and sitting indoors for hours. Whatever their motivation may be, the outdoors are a bother to them, and so are the people who like the outdoors. Both parties used to coexist, more less, but the indoor folks are now in the majority. Exhibit A: Woodbadge. The pinnacle of adult scouter training...and the emphasis is on Management 101. Tragic, in that scouting without outing is just a bore for most folks, who have better things to do than sit on a bench, watching ppt, and wearing a droopy over priced uniform. PS CC! Your post is sublime--well done.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Scouting is still relevant. So are all the hallmarks of the successful years of scouting--scoutcraft, duty to God, country, others, etc. Scouting only seems irrelevant (to some) because the BSA has willingly downplayed the successful hallmarks of scouting, and replaced them with that which is sedentary and uninspiring. Look at the world today. Despite claims to the contrary, I'd hardly call this an enlightened age. The world didn't get this way because of scouting. But our communities, and specifically our youth, could greatly benefit from the time-honored hallmarks of scouting. Scouting is exactly what we need.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

If a scout has the sand to make Eagle, he'll do whatever it takes to make the grade. Additional requirements, be they arbitrary or useful or otherwise, will not discourage him in the least. He'll put in the extra work to succeed. And when mom pins that medal on at the court of honor, it'll really mean something. After all, "extra requirements" are a part of life. College, jobs, family, religious practice, citizenship--none are reduced to a checklist of mandated minimum standards. Life requires "extra requirements." Definition of Eagle vary. I'd submit that "firmness of purpose" should be near the very top of the list of Eagle attributes. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Eagle92, well thought out...heck, I've got to agree, at least 1 homework MB is probably in order. Perhaps include personal finance concepts in the citizenship superb badge as well? Paying bills and saving money are hallmarks of good citizenship, I believe, though it's been awhile since society has believed that. One big homework badge...with a special border...imagine the relief when that is complete!

GKlose, I think your idea is outstanding! bnelon44, your commitment to having scouts sit at picnic tables, doing homework MBs, it both amazing and puzzling at the same time. To borrow Basement's comments about the NOA, I think a scout who earns Eagle under GKlose's plan will be a well rounded scout as well. Less time sitting on a bench, more time in the field. Instilling the aims of scouting, and then seeing the aims become a part of life, is best done by actual involvement in life. Preferably the outdoors. A 500 word essay doesn't prove much.

To amend my previous: there are volunteers that are in lock step with the red tape machine...I can't blame paid pros solely. After all, they don't award those Silver Beavers to just anybody.

Richard, I'm a bit mystified by your premise of national doing a swell job of developing programs, but then councils and local folks mess up the delivery of said outstanding programs. Here's how I see it: national guts old school scouting, then implements anemic, homework oriented stuff. Over-emphasis on red tape/CYA/what-the-house-lawyers want. Councils then sells it all, just what national wants, in earnest, without missing a beat. After all, DEs want to be council execs, and council execs eventually want the phone call inviting them to join the cubical farm at Irving. The units? Ah, a mixed bag. They are volunteers and have autonomy, to a large extent. There are some rules that must be followed. But they are free to use old handbooks, come up with their own programming (stuff that actually works and keep the scouts interested--shocking!), and otherwise pursue the spirit of scouting in their "own particular idiom." The units don't dream up the stuff that stifles adventure, or initiative, or the tried/true/tested activities that have stood the test of time. Nope, that falls strictly on the shoulders of paid pros. PS I think BadenP and Eagle92 summed matters up quite well.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

John, I concur with your thoughts. The red tape keeps growing, and ironically, the fact that it's 2013 has had little impact on IT support the BSA provides to the unit leader. Further irony: National presented Bill Gates with the Silver Buffalo in 2010. Can't tell what benefit Gates has provided the BSA in general, or specifically, before or since. Certainly hasn't been any support to the BSA's abysmal IT department. IT aside, council offices seem to have a knack for poor office management procedures. Regardless of the medium, you can bet the council office will lose what you submit, or return it to you late. They perform at a level that is to their complete satisfaction.

Acco, valiant thoughts about volunteering to be on the training cadre, but here's what I've seen (four councils in five years due to military moves): volunteer all you want, but you won't be selected unless you are a Good Olde Boy, A Member in Good Standing (not with the troop, but with the other District Good Olde Boys) and you darn better have at least two beads dangling from your neck on a leather thong before you even say "hello".... Bottom line: they ain't looking for an experienced, savvy volunteer to be on the training cadre! They are looking for Good Olde Boys, or Aspiring Good Olde Boys, to join them and preserve the status quo. So outdoorsmen/women with previous scouting experience are generally less welcome because they'll upset the little sand castle that's been built. (Eagle92, you and others like yourself are the expection, in that you welcome experienced folks...but you are that, the exception.) Who decides if training is a waste of time? The trainee. But in the BSA, it's the opposite. The cadre decides "this is what is best for you, non-Good Olde Boys." The missing element? Respect. Respect for the trainees' time and life experience. And so it goes. The mandatory training is a waste of time in many locations. And the cadre isn't the least bit interested in hearing feedback, or changing things up. They've got all the answers, they've got the "credentials", and they have all the time in the world.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Kathy, by all means, ask for a new UC. The UC role is ideally based on mutual trust and respect. If those elements aren't there, you've seen first hand what happens--a UC who has an agenda, is a paperwork chaser and otherwise a pain in the neck. The UC works for the UNIT. The district and council and regional and national work for the UNIT. Some scouters with silver and gold tabs forget that.

Pappydaddy, BDPT and SP hit the sweet spot.... UCs recruited solely to nag the units, fill spots on the roster for JTE, and otherwise annoy or micromanage the unit, bolster the negative reputation the UC corps has rightfully earned over the years.

As a guy who was a UC in his 20's, and now again in my 40's, I agree with the others--some seasoning as a unit level leader is not required to be a UC, but highly recommended. In my late 20's, I had several years experience as an ASM and SM previous. But as a new UC, I was serving units that were lead by long tenured SMs. Some were nice to me, others patronized me, but despite my best efforts and previous experience as a scout and scouter, I never found myself being that "trusted friend" to the unit leaders. After a long hiatus from scouting, I'm a UC again and find myself being more effective. It's not just scouting experience, but life experience, that will help some SMs (obstinate or reluctant) accept you in your role as an advisor and confidant. Not to say a young person cannot/should not do UC duty. There are some that were/are infinitely more talented than me, and they won't face the issues that I did. Just offering up some thoughts to consider. The best times as a UC are standing around the camp fire during a troop campout, drinking coffee and shooting the breeze with the SM and ASMs. If you've got troop level experience as a scouter, that credibility and experience is important. You've walked a mile in their shoes, in scouting and in life. Even the most motivated, intelligent, squared-away former scout will benefit from a couple years as an ASM, CM or the like. Whatever your decision, best wishes and enjoy your journey as a scouter.

JP, my deepest condolences....

More National and parent push these days. Back in the Day: "You want to make Eagle? Worthy goal. You've got alot of work ahead of you. Good luck." "You didn't make it? That's okay, hope you got something out of the program and that you'll stay on as an ASM." "You made it? Congratulations, we'll have a special part of our next court of honor for you. Mrs. Williams always bakes a nice cake for such ocassions." Today: MB universities, summer camps that are more focused on homework than adventure, pushy parents, SMs that skew the program towards square-filling and pencil-whipping, and presto! Time for another Eagle Scout coronation, complete with solemn Eagle oaths, 500 letters of congrats from people that don't know the Eagle, and other mummery. Then Powerpoint Department at National can add another Eagle to the tally. Quantity over quality.

Abide by the scout oath and law...that pretty much covers diversity.

Indeed, the course is a joke. I had the same reactions--didn't learn anything, and just a waste of time. I learned alot more about health and fitness from my Fieldbook, 2d edition.

Qwazse, LOL, well said.... And I sat up a little straighter, from my usual slouch, when I read your post...

Double.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Basement, martyrdom is not a prereq for scouting service.... Qwazse, maybe my sarcasm meter is inop/needing calibration, but I think chopping wood is far better for all concerned, and more beneficial than any indoor academic parlor game. How did scouting survive, nay, thrive, before all this mush? By chopping wood.

Kudu, well said and thanks for the insight.

Pack, the very scenario you describe as highly unlikely has happened to me. And there have been several unsavory encounters with thugs that could have gone bad real quick, but thankfully didn't. Left quite an impression on me. Despite conjecture to the contrary, there are thugs who are quite industrious and prowl the boonies looking for people to prey upon. I know. I've meet them. And it is quite unpleasant. I don't carry 99 percent of the time, but there are parts of this world, yes, I do. Just got to know when/where. These days, I just stay away from those unsafe (read: unsafe because of humans) areas, not matter how great the flora and fauna are.

Pack, the very scenario you describe as highly unlikely has happened to me. And there have been several unsavory encounters with thugs that could have gone bad real quick, but thankfully didn't. Left quite an impression on me. Despite conjecture to the contrary, there are thugs who are quite industrious and prowl the boonies looking for people to prey upon. I know. I've meet them. And it is quite unpleasant. I don't carry 99 percent of the time, but there are parts of this world, yes, I do. Just got to know when/where. These days, I just stay away from those unsafe (read: unsafe because of humans) areas, not matter how great the flora and fauna are.

Basement, good point. I feel bad for those "scouting orphans." It's a tough thing to deal with as a child, realizing that mom/dad would rather spend their evenings and weekends with kids other than their own offspring. For what? To earn another knot? Or bead? To wear the uniform? To hang around other scouters and talk about scouting? The most important role a scouter has is "parent." Yeah, a campout might be cancelled if you personally can't make it. But your daughter's soccer championship is far more important in the big scheme of things. If the other parents won't pick up the slack and help, well, so be it. Our first loyalty as parents is to our own kids. Humor: don't see much in the BSA today. Lots of earnest but humorless folks about. Much of it self induced. RememberSchiff hit the nail on the head! Banana republic generals, LOL, true! Many of the meetings I attend are so darn uptight. The answer? I dunno. Relax a bit. Have some time during meetings just for socializing and not talking about business. I recall a DE, many years ago, saying at RT "If a scouter isn't having fun, it's because he's not drinking enough whiskey." He meant it entirely in jest, no mistaking the tone and delivery. I knew the DE personally, a man of integrity and professional thru and thru. I laughed aloud. But I was the only one. Everyone else sat there expressionless, like mummies. The DE shrugged andd pressed on. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Pack, finely crafted ideals...but what will you do if you run across the thug who doesn't care what you think of him? Or your view of the world? He's up to no good, pulls his gun on you. Or a knife. Or attacks you. You didn't do anything wrong. Just in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Brother, he's got you. It's a situation you don't want to be in, believe you me. So if you don't want to carry a gun, that's fine. Just please consider the notion that your past record of care-free days on the trail carry no guarantee of the same in the future. As JoeBob pointed out, some have had personal experiences in this department. So if someone chooses to legally carry a gun, that doesn't make them paranoid, or crazy. It's call prudence.

Exactly...we serve for the benefit of the scouts.