desertrat77

Stosh, I believe the uniform is for both the viewer and the wearer. But...some differences re the LE/mil uniforms and the BSA's: 1. LE and military must wear their uniform, regardless of whether they personally like it or not--the "reg" says so. 2. The Marine dress blues are one of the best designed, distinctive uniforms ever...both Marines and the general public respond positively to it. 3. Most people in the BSA are volunteers, and don't have to wear a uniform if they don't want to. 4. For a variety of reasons--cost, appearance, etc.--many people do not like the scout uniform, and see no benefit in wearing it. When National decides to field a uniform that people actually want to wear, the issue will be solved. Until then, the uniform committee can keep on designing uniforms there in Dallas, in a vacuum, without pack/troop/crew/ship input, have a big rollout, and then wonder why people still wear just about anything under the sun other than a BSA uniform.

Eagle, I'm tracking with you. We have a couple units like that in our district...one is still that way, an the other had their long-time SM finally retire and they are starting to grow again. For our last camporee, two troops couldn't muster enough scouts or adults, so they joined forces and camped/competed as one joint unit. It was source of good humor throughout the weekend, as they insisted on saying their combined troop number, three digits of the one troop, plus the three digits of the other, all at once "Troop 123456 reports!" They had one SPL for both troops, and a provisional patrol made up on the spot of five boys...and they took home a lion's share of awards. Good cooperation from scouters and scouts...they made the best of it.

I've been in districts like this--these district staffers won't reach out to the troops. After all, the district staffers know best, and anything that runs counter to district dogma and tradition is viewed as sedition. The staffers would rather have 25 percent of the district attend and conform to their (the district staff's idea) of scouting, and not deal with the 75 percent that won't kowtow. And the district will still insist that the camporee was a runaway success anyway. Many of these district staffers have nothing but disdain for the missing 75 percent anyway. Why, the SM/ASM that may not have been to WB! They wear blue jeans instead of official pants! They won't attend RT! Why would a silver-looped district staffer stoop to associate with unit scouters like that????? So it's an impasse till the old district staffers retire. The troops do their thing, the district does theirs. Fortunately, real scouting happens at the unit level. The sand castle that the district staffers build really doesn't have much bearing on real scouting. But it sure can be annoying to many unit level scouters.

Now that's a memory!

Camporee, 1975, southern Arizona...we are encamped in a fairly open area, mesquite trees here and there. Friday night: pouring rain. For a good long while. Our floorless, canvas tents were a little damp but alright. I remember sitting by the fire with a couple of the scouts and one of the dads...despite the damp, we had a nice fire going, a deep bed of coals, putting out good warmth. Good camaraderie. The next day, we went through the normal competitive stuff in the morning. But the afternoon event? Secret. Every scout had to be present, and the SPLs too. A bobtail truck pulls up in the middle of a big field. The SPLs form a horseshoe around the end of the truck. All of the scouts form a bigger horseshoe behind them. The big announcement: there was a live chicken for each troop. They would be released from the truck all at once. Each SPL had to catch a chicken, and with his troop, run back to camp. Then: - Kill the chicken - Clean it - Cook it - Run a sample piece to the judging booth, about a mile down the road. Once they tasted it, the clock stopped. Well, as you can imagine, the whole chicken catching phase was chaos. Probably about 30 troops of varying strength present. But our SPL caught a chicken quick, and we raced back (over railroad tracks and a barbed wire fence) to camp. Our SM was rather surprised to see us. Growing up as a farm boy, he knew what to do. Get a shovel, dig a hole, get the hatchet. Chop the head off. Instead of plucking, skin the chicken (quicker, less mess). Disembowel. Cut it up. Get the dutch oven going with some oil. Dredge chicken in flour/salt/pepper. I don't remember how we placed, if at all, but that was the best tasting chicken I ever ate. Quite a memory, because it probably hasn't been repeated too often since. PS For you '77 jambo vets--I was on a trek at Philmont that same timeframe. On our last day, about a mile out of base camp, we met a day hiker (headed for the Tooth of Time) who had just come back from the '77 jamboree. We chatted a bit. I still recall his description of the rain and mud! Must have been something else!

"This is why my Scouting career stops at the door to our Scout house. Who wants to put up with that sort of mess?" Twocubdad, well said. The special camporee hats? Priceless!

Packsaddle, I think you are getting to the root of the matter.... It's true, each CO/community exercises the local option already. Many folks have full uniforms in their closet, but for a variety of reasons, would rather wear blue jeans and the scout shirt. Or something else. It works for them. I agree, there is no forcing the situation to be anything but local option. If the BSA wants more folks to wear the uniform, National will have to dispense with their traditional strategies for designing and fielding a uniform. Just as in sales, people will do things that benefit them. The BSA uniform? For many reasons (and we've listed plenty here and past threads), many see no benefit to wearing the full uniform. Philosophy and the uniform guide aren't enough. This isn't the military, so folks aren't going to receive an Article 15 or other punishment for not adhering to the "reg." Again, the key is reaching out to the unit level scouts and scouters. They are the image of scouting in their community.

Design a uniform that scouts actually want to wear. Has National asked the scouts "what would you like in a uniform?" I rather doubt it. I think the ODL, Centennial, the Uniform After the Centennial, etc., were all designed with the middle-aged scouter in mind.

A couple years ago, I was in a district in Northern California, not too far from the coast. There was one Sea Scout ship in the district, staying alive only through the incredible dedication of the skipper. He had been skipper for at least a couple decades, but was getting on in years and was actively recruiting for a replacement, but with little success the last time I talked to him. Getting new sea scouts proved difficult as well. As others have pointed out, this sadly is not an isolated case. There were plenty of youth in the area, the skipper was enthusiastic and always had adventures on the water lined up. But as I think about it, packs/troops/crews had the same problem as well in that region.

Thanks to all for the ideas, much food for thought. For our fall camporee, the initial suggestions from the troops: a combo wilderness survival/pioneering weekend. We'll get everyone together for planning session in a couple weeks.

Barry, those are great ideas!

Bad Wolf, I've been in districts just like yours, you have my respect for your perseverance! The bad attitudes and stuff that the district staffers pull, it's enough to make a unit level scouter crazy, quit, or drink. Or all three. Many districts in the BSA have those similar, negative traits. Double unfortunate that those same, toxic districts think they are just fine, they won't change, and are constantly doing things that work contrary to the what the units are trying to achieve. There is something about those silver loops (I'll throw in WB beads, too!) that make many district scouters think that they are better than everyone else. No doubt your unit-led camporee would be a success. There is an appetite for old fashioned scouting, without the hierarchy. Several units, camping together, with competition, camaraderie, cooking. Cobble together some funds for a cool patch. The scouts will never forget it.

Stosh, sorry to hear about this. Your district has the attitude of several districts/councils I was in before I retired from the military. "We are the district and if it weren't for these annoying troops, scouting would be great!" Recently had the privilege of being a camporee director for the first time. The camping/outdoor committee in our small district consists of two people, me being one of the two. We asked from day 1 for volunteers from the units to serve on the committee. The response was great--we had several of the best scouters in the district raise their hand. Because we hadn't had a camporee in awhile, I proposed the theme be "back to basics," camping/cooking/competition, with the emphasis on patrol spirit. The scouters concurred and I was knocked over at how enthusiastic and creative they were. Long story short, the camporee was a success (based on the units' opinion, not just my own) and before it ended, there were several scouters that approached me with ideas for the next one. Now I don't attribute this to any great leadership feat on my part, other than me dispensing with the typical "I'm the district and I know best" attitude and instead emphasizing a) traditional scouting, b) the unit level scouters are a wealth of talent and c) the district is here to serve the unit. That said, I'm very fortunate to be in a small, rural district, with a key three that love traditional scouting, the outdoors, and believe they work for the scouts and scouters at the unit level. I'm darn lucky, because I've been in several other places in our nation where that is not the case.

Excellent discussion, appreciate the insights. Calico, I concur with your proposal. It's a darn good one. Most of those Eagle required MBs are square fillers anyway--"homework" MBs. Keep a couple required (like Camping and Personal Fitness) that are outdoor/fitness oriented, and let the scout decide the rest. I think we'd be pleasantly surprised at how much more creative and motivated the scouts would be if Calico's proposal was enacted. The scouts' lives are way too structured these days. Let them think for themselves. Other random thoughts and responses: - I join the others that say "combine the Citizenships into one" or something similar. For far too long, those MBs have been an unholy trio of tedium. It's been almost 40 years since I earned them as a scout, and they still top my list of the least favorite MBs I earned of thirtysomething. The kicker: I loved civics, US history, and international relations, even as a student. Still do. But The Three Citizenships? Forced marches. - I've always considered MBs to be primarily a test of individual initiative on the part of the scout. Some are best earned at scout camp, in a class, yes. But most of the others? The scout himself should initiate the process with the SM and counselor to earn the badge. From start to finish, it should be the scout does the work, follows up, finishes the badge. There are many kinds of Eagles, but the best ones have plenty of "gumption." Show some hustle, as our old coaches would say. MB fairs have always struck me as robbing the scout of the best lessons he could learn: perseverance, follow through, stick to it. Often these are just as important to learn as the MB subject matter itself.

If I recall BSA history, many decades ago scouts were regularly called upon for such a mission. They also ran messages and helped out during natural disasters, etc. Society has changed quite a bit, as Tahawk noted about walking home from school. If leaders and parents properly frame the experience for the scouts before and after, it should not be a life-long traumatic experience for the scouts. Shocking and eye opening, yes. A good lesson about life and death, yes. As Stosh said, it may motivate them to be first responders. But as others have noted, many Americans keep death at arm's length, and rarely talk about it. Then when faced with death, many folks are not prepared to deal with the thoughts and emotions that accompany it. As the BSA slowly moves back to an outdoor emphasis, I hope we can also dust off this long-forgotten aspect of scouting from yesteryear--serving during a crisis. Granted, there are all kinds of laws and societal changes that have developed since then, but I think there are still roles for responsible, trained scouts to help the community in emergency situations. It would benefit the community, raise the visibility and value of scouting to others, and give the scouts a real sense of maturity and "being a scout is important to others." Our youth are much smarter and tougher than we think.

Tahawk, well said...

SSS, excellent post, thanks for the perspective.

Stosh, thanks and you've convinced me! Merry Christmas to you and yours, DR

Stosh, LOL and huzzah! Thanks, I need that. Next cup of coffee is on me.

LeCastor, you strike as a darn good scouter. And I hate to do this after you wrote such a fine Christmas benediction, but I figure I might ought to say a few words in my role of The Grinch. Some of the unit scouters in this forum have hard edges. Frankly, they have to be hard. Been there myself. Scouters made of lesser stuff would have quit a long time ago. Scouting is not always the big happy family we'd like for it to be. It takes a lot of guts and hardheadedness to stay the course. We strive for peace and understanding. But sometimes, you've got to roll up your sleeves and engage in battle with those that don't have scouting's best interest at heart. Compassion for Moocher Mom, the LA Generals, et al? Okay. Let's lend some to the unit level scouters in this forum. The ones that rankle. That are curmudgeonly. Yes, they have some rough edges but they come by it honestly. How? Walk a mile in their shoes. Find a hard-luck troop in a rough neighborhood, or a pack with lots of in-fighting and drama in a nice neighborhood, and become the unit leader. Give it a year. You'll see that positivity is a good thing, but accountability ("blame assessment") and sharp, uncomfortable conversations are necessary leadership tools as well. Yes, I know the latter two are verboten in today's psychology 101. A darn shame, because the need for them hasn't gone away. If handled correctly, and promptly, they nip problems in the bud. Thanks for all you do for scouting, and my best to you and yours this holiday season.

Stosh, if your gas tank keeps getting punctured, and you keep fixing it, at what point do you figure out what is causing it? Or do you just keep fixing it without digging up that big stone in the middle of the drive way? Now, if I'm tracking with you, agree with your thoughts about avoiding long, involved assessments. Sometimes the cause is as plain as day. No need to assemble a committee to examine things at length. Just fix it.

If a problem is recurring, determining the root cause can be helpful. Frequent, similar mistakes? Tracing it all back to a single employee, a particular shop, or a faulty process isn't blame, it's the first step in figuring a solution that will work.

I support Basement's decision and how he handled it. Key points: Basement didn't attend the movie, nor eat pizza. He sat with the scout while the movie ran, and ate what the scout ate. That is not ostracizing the scout, but a reality check for mom/dad. As I recall my days working at the troop level, there were always a couple families that were Class A freeloaders. Mooching was an art form, a way of life. That kind of parent will only stop if they get called out. Kindness? Compassion? Synonyms for "weakness" to them. I also recall that the scouts in these situations often know the score even better than their parents. Sometimes the scout has character and pride that is absent in their mom and dad. The scout is often made of stronger stuff that we give him credit for. He'll be better for it. SSS, you must have been reading my mind this week. I've talked to a few troop leaders who were having problems with kids and non-payment (though the parents were well-off or at least solvent). The common denominator is the "grubmaster/leader buys/eat now/pay later plan." I'm listening to the conversations but wondering what is up. My scouting experience as a youth matches yours. The only thing an adult scouter did was approve the menu for the campout. "Nope, not having just donuts for breakfast, you are going to cook something, where is the fruit/vegetable for lunch" etc. Once approved, the patrol leader rallied everyone and together we scouts would: 1. Compile a food/supply list 2. Figure out what was already on hand in the patrol box, or ask parent for items from the home pantry 3. Calculate final cost and collect money from each scout (no pay, no eat) 4. Get a ride from a parent to the store (PL, APL, a couple others) 5. Shop (no parents allowed, they just drove) 6. Pay for it all 7. Sort/store 8. Prepare duty roster (cook/wood/water/KP) 9. Get it all to the departure point for the outing 10. Cook and clean Was it perfect? Heck no, not for the new patrol leader! But after a couple of botched attempts, and mighty empty bellies during campouts (watching the more experienced patrols dine well), something amazing happened. We learned to do it right. And ate like kings. I suppose there are times when the grubmaster concept is necessary, perhaps when the scouts aren't from stable homes, etc.

"~~Our district chairman calls these people "toxic Scouters". I personally don't let those people get in the way of my having a positive Scouting experience. If you do then you let them beat you down and make you cynical. If t he toxic Scouters are taking over your roundtable, maybe you need to "raise the red flag" and call them out on it. The Scout Law applies to them, too, n'est-ce pas?" LeCastor, here's the rub. Some districts, the old boys have all the chairs. And if they don't, they have people who are sympathetic to them or afraid of them (or numb to them) in the other chairs. So things don't change. You either grit your teeth and endure it, or spend your time and energy fighting city hall. If you've got a chairman who has the courage to stand up to toxic scouters, I say hazzah and I wish there were more like him/her. But a new guy/gal or someone low on the totem pole is not going to effect much change, even if they like fighting the tide. Again, having moved a lot and seen this dynamic in four districts (I don't count my current/fifth district, as they are good scouters), I clearly understand what Joe Bob and Basement and others are articulating on the subject.

I'll second Basement's point. The Overbearing District Olde Boy Knot Squad is not comprised of folks that have interest in being utilized for the good of the units, or befriended or, understood. In fact, quite the opposite. Most of them have little to no experience at the unit level. If they have experience, it was years ago and something they only draw on to bolster their scouting reputation. Some have dual positions at district and unit, but usually conduct themselves in the same way at unit level. In truth, most have little interest in the units; instead they are focused primarily on WB, FOS, district stuff, council and national matters. They've got their clique and that is the extent of their social and scouting involvement. In my years of moving, it followed a standard pattern. I'd show up to my first RT or any other district meeting and some would seek me out, and I'd seek others out who avoided me. Work the room. I'd be on my best manners, firm handshake, introduce myself, looking forward to serving with you, learning the ropes from y'all here at X District, etc. Then, like clockwork: their eyes squint, glance at my knots, then my lack of WB beads, then my Philmont Arrowhead...then perhaps some polite formal chit chat. Some wouldn't even do that--they'd look at me like I came from outer space and walk away without making eye contact or telling me their name (which I guess they didn't need to do, as they usually wear the most ornate name badge possible on their uniform). Over time, some would come around and be friendly. Others, never. Regardless, collectively this same bunch would block qualified volunteers to fill district vacancies, talk down to unit leaders, strut around at meetings, show their plumage, etc., and a lot of other things that added nothing to the needs of the unit level men and women who were sitting in the metal folding chairs, tired, hungry, having worked a full day. So if your district doesn't have an Olde Bunch, count your lucky charms (I do--my current district has a grand total of zero, good folks all). But they are out there. And more than any single thing I can think of, these old blowhards run off more new talent and fresh blood than anything else in the BSA. No scouter needs to put up with that kind of crap. "But they fill important district roles!" some say. I say: no district role is that important, if it means the unit leaders are being ill-treated and ill-served. PS. LeCastor, there is no "engaging" the olde boys, they only recognize capitulation or outright conflict.