walk in the woods

Yep. Our council asks for 18% on every event (Klondike, camporee, cub camp, webelos overnighter, cubmobile, etc.)

Yep, I admit it's not a perfect comparison but I don't think it's all that far off the mark. The rest of the gender-based sports comparison would require beverages for a full and complete discussion though .

It is an interesting moral dilemma; which is more important, principle or brand? BPSA, TL, the various church-based scout-like programs seem to have chosen the former, we seem to be wrasslin' over the latter. Mr. Gates seems to think it's possible we'll all fail. Curious times.

I suppose we kind of already knew the answer to the scenario suggested. What you describe AZMike seems a whole lot like the Baden-Powell Service Association- US to me. Their by-laws specifically state: ~Section 4. Policy of Inclusion (i) BPSA offers a choice for those with curiosity, energy and independence of spirit. We are committed to providing an appropriate alternative and community-oriented Scouting experience. BPSA welcomes everyone, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion (or no-religion) or other differentiating factors. Our mission is to provide a positive learning environment within the context of democratic participation and social justice. We foster the development of Scouts in an environment of mutual respect and cooperation. They also claim to be using the policies and rules written by BP himself in 1938 for the UK scouting association. The requirements for advancement have things like trail signs for tenderfoot. They have Morse code and semaphore and even require cooking in a billy-can. The handbook is at http://bpsa-us.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/BPSA-US-Pathfinder-Handbook.pdf. So, no, people wouldn't switch if the opportunity presented itself.

I'm curious, and I'm not trying to be chippy at all, but for those of you advocating for co-ed because it's easier for your family, do you also advocate for co-ed sports teams? I see plenty of parents running son to baseball three days a week and daughter to softball three other days and/or times but rarely hear them ask for co-ed participation or complain that their daughter can't be on the baseball team. Just curious.

My HFA son is an Eagle scout. Scouting was good for him but not always easy. I was scoutmaster for the troop and would encourage you to be around as TT said, "just in case." We dealt with more than a few "zone-outs" and "meltdowns." But, we dealt with zone-outs and the like with NT kids too. My son was, and is today, more comfortable in conversations with adults than with peers. He's not so good with the peers, but, he worked on it. Being put into positions to have to work on those skills, in the relatively safe confines of scouting, was and continues to be a win. He also had an excellent youth group leader that helped him with those skills. Today he picks and chooses what he wants to do in scouting and scouting has been moved to the back burner behind things he wants to do in school and pursuing a drivers license. That said, the things he has chosen in school (scholastic bowl and drama club) wouldn't have been on the radar at all I believe if it wasn't for the confidence he built in scouting. If STEM and chess and such are you son's thing then go with that as the base to build on. Pursue MBs and NOVA awards. When he's old enough look for (or start!) a crew in your area that focuses on those things. If Scouting just isn't your son's thing, I would recommend you look at other developmental programs (e.g. 4H). There are good programs that might be a bit less chaotic that would serve your son better than scouting. That's not a knock on scouting so much as recognition that scouting doesn't work for every kid, HFA or NT. We would have found other outlets for my if scouting just hadn't worked out.

We charge $0. All events are pay-as-you-go. Fundraisers used to be split b/w ISA and general ledger.

S

"KDD - No female leaders or the whole event is canceled. Welcome to the world of venturing... Personally, we've always been able to find female adults to come" That's interesting Fred. Our experience is quite the opposite. Our crew has had multiple events cancelled or the girls were only invited to come down for a day activity while the boys camped because we couldn't find female leadership for the overnight. The ladies also tend to have veto power on just about any activity that we try to do as a crew. It's all local I guess.

Tampa, I'm not trying to call you out here but rather typing under the category of speaking from the heart. I suspect the quote above gets to the crux of the issue for many Christians, and I know it does for me. I don't offer Jesus to offend but because it's my tradition. It's offered in love. It's not meant to proselytize but rather is the most intimate way I know to ask for blessings. Why is that so intolerable? I think Q made a good point that I agree with in that I would much rather have somebody offer me a blessing from their belief system than to try something more generic or to accommodate my belief system. I may not understand or believe but I trust their heart to be right. I have some thoughts on the restrictions on worshiping interfaith but that's probably another thread altogether. I wonder if maybe the Scouts Own answer is simply to stop trying to make something common and just offer facilities for individual faith traditions. le Voyageur, the welcome mat was placed on the stoop, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the topic. What options would you offer to the question of how to make meeting invocations (or benedictions) more tolerable?

While I'm not sure I agree that all the items are necessarily good for the program I suspect it is the correct list to get the BSA out of the line of fire of the culture struggles in our country. I would fully support the single committee/charter concept. I agree with Q that I'd play with the ages a bit and would eliminate the overlap you suggest between the middle-school and high-school programs. It's interesting to hear about camps with large numbers of female staffers. I've only attended a few summer camps over the years but none of them had more than a token number of female staff members. Two or three at most. I'm curious though Fred on your suggestion about charter partner latitude. Are you suggesting that if my unit decided no female leaders, no female youth, no gay leaders that you would and would expect National to support that choice? I think that's what you're suggesting but just curious.

I'm reading this as 18 - 20 year olds have to register as adults and deal with YPT issues as an adult, but are still able to participate in the program as a "participant." If that interpretation holds then we can still have 20 year old OA chiefs, they just can't tent with 17 year old vice-chiefs. Same interpretation for Venturing. Given that society holds those 18 year olds as adults it probably makes sense to register them as adults. The spin is already bad and going to get worse.

I've always enjoyed this prayer: ~~Native American Prayer Oh, Great Spirit Whose voice I hear in the winds, And whose breath gives life to all the world, hear me, I am small and weak, I need your strength and wisdom. Let me walk in beauty and make my eyes ever behold the red and purple sunset. Make my hands respect the things you have made and my ears sharp to hear your voice. Make me wise so that I may understand the things you have taught my people. Let me learn the lessons you have hidden in every leaf and rock. I seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy - myself. Make me always ready to come to you with clean hands and straight eyes. So when life fades, as the fading sunset, my Spirit may come to you without shame. (translated by Lakota Sioux Chief Yellow Lark in 1887) It has Christian overtones but still sends a nice message. As I was looking for this prayer online I found this site http://nativeamerican.lostsoulsgenea...om/prayers.htm which has a number of nice prayers (not a fan of translated 10-commandments but that's me). I can't speak for the accuracy of the attributions. Now, these almost all assume the idea of a Great Spirit but some give language to walking in the beauty of the Universe, etc. I'd be interested in hearing opinions on those in relation to non-theists belief systems.

MattR, I owe you an apology for my initial snarky comments and for not asking clarifying questions instead of attacking. I will endeavor to do better.

"He was extremely sorry" was how MattR put it. Why did he have to be sorry about saying the word Jesus? It would have been much better if MattR had done something like this: 1. Talk to the scout about the preparation aspect. That's spot on sort of counseling session we should be doing and would help the boy be better prepared the next time he has a public speaking part. 2. At the next available opportunity commend the boys about taking on the job of providing the invocation. 3. Encourage the boys at the next Court of Honor to consider a different faith tradition. In doing so the Troop Chaplain's Aid could research options, the Patrol Leaders could poll their members to see if anybody would be a willing volunteer, etc. Then at the next CoH have Jewish or Muslim or Pagen or Wiccan or provide a meditation or whatever the boys decided to do. Use that as the group teaching moment instead of singling out the scout that attempted the invocation. With those three steps nobody has to feel "sorry" about anything, the boy still gets the learning experience of not preparing and maybe doing better the next time, his faith tradition isn't marginalized and the unit gets to show how diverse and open they are by changing out invocations/meditations at every Court of Honor. Sort of a win-win-win-win situation. No scout should ever be made to feel "sorry" for attempting to provide a program element.

Congratulations MattR, you made a boy feel ashamed about expressing his religious beliefs in public. Well done.

I would argue that over the last 50 years or so marriage has gone from being a sacred institution purposely designed to value the family, and the children in that family, over the individual to an institution designed for the benefit of the adults entering it. As a result society doesn't value marriage any more than it does the end of a service warranty on a new car. Anything that isn't valued is easy to discard.

Kind of hard to tell from the picture but those look more like cabins to me than what I would consider a shelter so I'd probably say no for Camping MB (although for Camping MB I'd likely count something like a back country trail shelter). For the OA I believe the requirement just says 15 days and nights of Boy Scout camping in the previous two years. One week and only one week has to be a BSA sanctioned resident camp. As sad as it sounds there might be an argument that your tree-house camp would count towards OA eligibility. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/boyscouts/orderofthearrow.aspx

so the PTA isn't actually the school as I understand it around here. So it would seem to me that particular PTA chose to boot the pack based on the type of people and organizations they choose to associate with........Just saying.

So if we throw out the edge cases for now of abusive relationships, drug use, one parent deciding they are gay, etc. I think the biggest issue with the no-fault-divorce culture is it teaches children that rather than work at loving somebody if it just doesn't magically "work out" you can walk away. Tends towards the lazy.

Haven't merged but have moved COs which is what it seems like the other unit is doing. If gear is going to transfer make sure your unit gets a "clean title." When our pack changed COs we were asked for a letter on the old COs letterhead listing everything that was moving to the new CO. I know it's been debated here but I don't believe the old CO is obligated to transfer equipment or money to the new unit. If there's no money or equipment changing hands you might consider just having the boys fill out transfer applications, pay the $1 and be done with it.

Just a logistics question for those of you that use thumb drives. What do you use to read them in the field if you have an issue and if you have to take a scout to a medical facility do you just turn over the entire drive? I'm especially curious for those of you taking 50 kids into the woods.

You all are assuming they didn't try to help the pack out. I wonder if they tried to help, maybe even dual registered but watched sadly as the parents of the actual cub scouts sat on their hands. Burning out as they tried to run both units. There's not enough information in the story to judge the reality of their situation or the character of the young men profiled.

I don't have official references but I do know a number of scouts who are dual registered. As far as I know the only thing primary registration means is that's where you pay your $24 to national so you don't get hit multiple times. Beyond that they are full members of both units with all the rights, privileges and responsibilities appertaining thereunto. IMNSHO, if he's serving both units as you mention everything else is window dressing and adult drama. But more directly: - MB's can be earned in either unit since he was 1st class or greater when joining the crew so check - You suggest he's met the requirement for POR in both units so check mark that one either way - The project proposal has a unit leader signature so he can get that in either unit so check Based on what I've read here the reality is if he wanted to quit the troop tomorrow and finish in the Crew he certainly could.

In my opinion both the scouts and the camp master were out of line. The scouts should have been courteous enough to sit through the concert. It wouldn't have killed them. Folks spent time planning the event for better or worse. Boys need to learn the very important lesson that sometimes you do things you don't want to do because it is the right thing to do. The camp master was out of line for trying to "pull rank" if those were indeed his words. A simple question of where are you guys headed? Does your PL/SPL know where you're going? Don't you think it would be more courteous to stay through the program? would have been appropriate.