walk in the woods

Our district has done this over two weekends. Sunday of weekend1 is the SM Specific followed by the IOLS Patrol meeting. IOLS is the following weekend.

So not using a pressurized lighter to light a pressurized stove suggests using a zippo to light the stove is ok. Get one with a skull and crossbones on it . Practice and you can teach the scouts to flip the zippo open and light in one really smooth cool motion.

Rational? If you can't light a stove by rubbing two sticks together you need to go back to Tenderfoot. Stoves are for parlor scouts. When I was a scout we ate our food raw and LIKED IT! The lawyers and risk managers have stock in piezoelectric crystal company.

Eagle90 and KDD, The issue isn't about the final act but rather grooming and establishing a barrier to that. The social media component, including the bit about copying another adult/leader on emails is at http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/Marketing/Resources/SocialMedia.aspx. I suppose the key paragraph is ~~As it relates to social media, two-deep leadership means there should be no private messages and no one-on-one direct contact through email, Facebook messages, Twitter direct messaging, chats, instant messaging (Google Messenger, AIM, etc.), or other similar messaging features provided through social media sites. All communication between adults and youth should take place in a public forum (e.g. the Facebook wall), or at a bare minimum, electronic communication between adults and youth should always include one or more authorized adults openly “copied†(included) on the message or message thread. The distinction between a one-on-one phone call (the original social media) and a one-on-one email/IM/PM is pretty thin I suppose.

Tahawk, The argument I would make for a second on an email chain is it provides an independent verification as both ends of the conversation could edit the message. Best two out of three kind of thing in the event that something came up.

I think the local option can work if the National organization provides insurance and cover for charter organizations that might be the next target of law suits. I think it failed last year because it seemed to come out of left field. Regardless, let's assume the BSA goes totally down the local option for everything path because ultimately they have no choice. Remove the restrictions on all the Gs and make the changes to the program foundations as necessary to accommodate. I'm not trying to be facetious, just brainstorming. I'm not convinced that changes the membership decline or the perception problem, assuming you believe it's real. Qwazse, I'll stipulate to your definition of life-changing, I kind of like it better than where I was headed. Do you think there are structural issues that should change to support that definition? Maybe Boy Scouts should be two or three years based on the T21 requirements with SLE moved into Venturing in parallel with Ranger, Quest, Trust and the rest? I kind of like the idea because it takes the focus off of merit badges and Eagle in the Jr. High timeline. It eliminates the age overlap. Also solves the issue people hate with 14 year old Eagles. And gives youth who come to the program late the opportunity to earn Eagle if we say the entry level of the new Venturing program is equivalent to T21. Maybe summer camps could focus on just having fun instead of offering MBs. Certainly they could quit offering Citizenships, Communications, and the other Eagle required bookwork MBs. I don't know. I personally think we could reduce our loses at the 5th grade point by shortening Cub Scouts to a three year program; combine Bobcat, Wolf, Bear into the first year then expand Webelos to get outdoors more. I think we'd get less boy and parent burn out. Sure membership would drop initially but maybe it would put some anticipation back into the younger boys and ultimately drive greater continuity of membership. I don't know. I do think expanding Cubs will make things worse. MattR I absolutely agree with your argument that scouting is a broader program than band or sports or STEM. I also like it as a parent. I also think other parents see the value, they just won't commit to the program. Again, I'll stipulate to single parents or multiple job families not being able to commit but I think we all have parents who are just afraid to make the commitment. I wonder if there isn't a way to reduce the number of adults required to run units? The group/section concept from the UK (also adapted by TL and AHG) makes a lot of sense to me. Would something like that help? I do think eliminating the obvious transition between Cubs and Boy Scouts can't hurt. Again, I don't know. I do think the discussion needs to be at that kind of level though and I'm not confident it's happening in Texas.

Barry, I do doubt the validity of Deron Smith's statement, which said the BSA offers life changing experiences that youth "cannot get anywhere else." I gave the counter examples to show that life changing experiences substantially similar to those in the BSA can be found in other places. I suppose the National and World Jamborees are unique to the BSA and Scouting but that's a small list. In general, making easily disproved statements is probably not great marketing because they are difficult to rally around. I mention 4-H and FFA because in my corner of America those programs are stronger than scouting. Maybe that's just because I live in a rural area. But in the Chicago area there are discussions about combining multiple councils that are a mix of urban and suburban. My understanding is the councils have been underperforming. So it's not clear to me that the issues faced by the BSA aren't systemic rather than locally programmatic. Perdidochas, 4-H and FFA have expanded beyond their farm roots. Both 4-H and FFA were working the STEM angle long before the BSA for example. The FFA changed their name from Future Farmers of America to the National FFA Organization a few decades ago to reflect their changing demographics and target audience. The FFA gets 50,000 plus people (10% of their membership) to their National Convention every year. They are half the size of the BSA in the 12 - 21 age demographic but they are growing. There may be lessons for the BSA to learn from the FFA. Honestly, I'm not trying to bash the BSA. It's a cliché but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. When things are going poorly management's first inclination is to "work harder." That may work for a while but it's a tactical reaction, not a strategic plan. Work harder or faster isn't the answer for the long-term. I'm just the messenger. Shooting me won't solve the problems .

I'm not trying to bash the BSA, just asking a question based on the BSA spokesperson's claim. When faced with declining membership and declining public support, one needs to take a hard look at the value-add of the program. Any youth-serving organization can access outfitters in the BWCAW, sign up for a week with Adventures on the Gorge, charter an adventure in the Keys or go hiking in the Rockies. Summer camps are offered by many church denominations and 4H clubs. Our local 4H and FFA groups do weekend outings similar to those done by scout units. My son participated in a national group called PeaceJam that got to meet Nobel Peace Prize Laureates. That's certainly a life-changing experience available outside of scouting. So, while the BSA may offer life-changing experiences we certainly can't claim that youth can't get those experiences outside of scouting. Perdidochas, I'd argue the FFA does a pretty good job with project work, at least around these parts. The local FFA chapter uses youth leadership to put in and take out a field every year, runs a green house, runs an annual produce sale fundraiser, etc. I have less exposure to 4H but those youth all have impressive projects on display at the county fair every year. Campfire has a service project award. Using youth leadership for projects isn't unique to the BSA either. As for organizations promoting safe usage of the outdoors, certainly NOLS and Outward Bound are available for exactly that purpose. Expensive maybe but available. I know there are local outfitters in my area that would be happy to offer training and trips. One could argue the BPSA or TL or campfire offer a similar set of outdoor educational programming opportunities. We compete for youth and parent's time and treasure. At a macro level we're losing and we have been for sometime now, certainly pre-dating the decision of last spring. Even if National announced next month that they made a mistake last year and were going to go with the local option I'm not convinced the decline would stop or even slow much. So, if we're really interested in addressing declining membership and sagging support we need some honest evaluation of our strengths and weaknesses. My question remains, what is our value add? How do we change the calculus?

Another take on the mentos would be to use the same number of candies but different kinds of soda. Come up with a measuring platform behind the soda bottle, etc. You could do multiple trials and averages. Probably gets a bit expensive unless you have each group do one set of data and combine it all at the end?

Here's the Deputy Chief Scout Exec's take... http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/04/09/smartphones-in-scouting-a-curse-or-a-cure/

How do you know what was said in a SM conference? Did you hear the exact words or read a transcript? Was the SM referring to your scout or another boy?

Like these guys Stosh...http://www.churchofsatan.com/? Quoting from their front page, "We Satanists are thus our own “Gods,†and as beneficent “deities†we can offer love to those who deserve it and deliver our wrath (within reasonable limits) upon those who seek to cause usâ€â€or that which we cherishâ€â€harm." Probably not a huge following that would be thinking about joining the BSA but based on many of the arguments in this thread would be good enough to meet the requirement of Reverent.

Ask your son, but, I wore a suit and tie. I chose my role as Dad over my role as Scoutmaster.

Yep, I had exactly the same ideas as Q for M, T, and Th. For Friday you could incorporate compass skills as well or build inclinometers from protractors, straws, strings and plumbs for the height of the tree. Instead of calculating how much they'd weigh on the moon I might suggest having them do a standing long jump, measure their vertical leap, measure how far they can throw a ball, etc.. Then ask them how much those would change with 1/6 gravity. It's not exact but I guess they'd still have to multiple by 6 at a minimum. Maybe have them calculate the lift of a helium balloon (balloon tied to a fish scale maybe?) then calculate how many balloons necessary to lift various objects off the ground?

Well, I suppose the folks at lnt.org would take some disagreement with you on the origins of LNT. Merit badges started as early as the Scouting program in the UK. So, I guess the BSA stole those both of your examples. You all spend a lot of time carping about an organization you assume won't amount to much, has it all wrong, etc. Get over it. Organizational decisions were made and personal decisions were made. Those that choose to stay need to stop bitchin' and start figuring out why membership continues to drop at an increasing rate.

If it's a passion for the boy, the wood duck house might be a nice seed for an Eagle project or a Hornaday project.

I'll take the contrarian view. I think the Eagle project has become over emphasized and way to focused on bureaucratic project management rather than actual service to the community. I've had more than a few members of the community ask me why the Eagle candidates on projects weren't "doing" the project rather than just "coordinating" or "managing." We talk in terms of leadership but the reality is the current Eagle Project workbook has absolutely nothing to do with leadership and everything to do with project management. I'd be happier to see projects scaled WAY back and see some service from the youth rather than having them fill out a 40-odd page project management workbook and report. I also fear that Boards of Review can get bogged down so badly in the project that they fail to see the whole character of the scout and the accomplishments they've made along the way.

The boys in my neck of the woods like to camp, make fires and play with knives as well. They just don't care if the BSA is wrapped around it or not.

I think it's a combination of things. I've seen a number of parents pull kids because of membership. It's certainly part of the equation. Right or wrong, I think it will get worse when the restrictions on adults are lifted. acco40, I think there are plenty of kids who like camping and the outdoors. That said, in my corner of rural America by the time they are Boy Scout age they've spent many hours with Dad hunting, fishing, canoeing and camping. They've driven ATVs and jet skis and snowmobiles. They "own" their own firearms. Boy Scout aged boys in my area that are interested in the outdoors aren't willing to wait until they are 15 years old to do the things they've been doing with Dad for years. The boys and girls I work with think things like the laser tag ban are the stupidest rules known to man. My autistic son learned to mow the lawn at 11, not 14. Boys who are 14/15 years old drive quarter-million dollar farm equipment every spring and fall but they can't drive a lawn tractor on summer camp staff or work days because they aren't 18. Ultimately we are selling buggy whips to the ipod generation and even those interested in buggy whips aren't interested in the restrictions we put on them.

Give us some definition of your shoestring . At the risk of being labeled a BSA shill, the Summit is offering such a sample platter starting this summer. But it's not inexpensive ($600+/person I believe). Our crew went to Latimer Scout Reservation a few years back for the whitewater. I think they offer other programs as well. Not sure of the cost.

I suppose there are two levels of selfishness there. One, the parent who doesn't fundraise but expects program and two the parent who no longer wants to subsidize parent one. I suppose you'd have to argue that neither have a place, no? Nobody wants to be on a team with a non-contributor.

Sorry Moose, maybe you should go read the original post again. I'll quote it here for your benefit: SO MY QUESTIONS ---- Do others think BSA youth protection should be improved by teaching more about the nature of abuse and nature of the abusers? ---- Any news about potential updates to BSA youth protection? so again, where YOU took the conversation is a simple reflection of your values and supposed tolerance.

Sorry Moose but I reject your assertion that I started anything. The OP asked if there was any news about potential updates to YPT. I responded with a link to a BSA source and a quote from the pertinent portion of the FAQ. Where you lead the conversation from there is on you and you alone. I simply and directly answered a question, end of story.

There are no updates to YPT coming. Quoting from the Membership Standards Implementation FAQ at http://www.scouting.org/filestore/training/membership/pdf/Unit_Implementation_FAQ.pdf. "This change in membership standards is not a youth protection issue. To consider it a youth protection issue would lead one to believe that sexual abuse and victimization is considered inherent to same-sex attraction. This is not the case."