CNYScouter

Is a motley crew a "High Adventure" or "Arts and Hobbies" Venturing Crew?

For those who really want to get to the "bottom of this topic" pick up the book "How to S**t in the Woods: An Environmentally Sound Approach to a Lost Art" by Kathleen Meyer. Someone bought this for me as a joke, knowing I was a Scout Leader, and it has way more information that I ever wanted to know about the subject, but is really informative. According to this book there is no where left on the North American Continent, including above the Artic Circle, where you can drink water from a natual source without filtering. One of the reasons that in some area you have to "pack it out" is because of Giardia contamination and Cryptosporidium. These bacterias can live at near freezing temperatures. Even though all animal waste contain these bacterias the strain found in human waste will make other humans sick.

Some of the Ship members have been joined a Shooting Venturing Crew to learn how to fire pistols. Last year a rifle crew was formed and when a new law came into effect this summer, allowing 14 to 20 year olds to shoot pistol, a Pistol Shooting Crew was formed. The rifle crew has as a CO that is a gun club with an outdoor range. The pistol crew has a pistol club as a CO with an indoor range just down the road. These two Crews have the same Advisors, CC and Committee members. The DE just took the youth in the rifle crew and registered them in the Pistol Crew also. These two crews meet together and the youth can fire either pistols or rifles, but they are listed as separate units. We also had a DE resign last year doing this. He would sign up 20 Cubs, 5 leaders and find 4 COs. He could then create 4 Packs rotating the adults for the different Leadership positions in each Pack (CM, CC, DL and 2 MCs). They would then just all meet together. So it can be easily done with some creative number management.

Lisabob- It great to hear that a district is at least thinking about getting the word out about the Venturing program. Venturing Crews now make up 25% of the units in my district but there is no support or even mention of them. Usually we are just lumped in with the troops. It took me 3 tries even to get something about the Ship into the District newsletter. At the last roundtable the DC was talking about scheduling FOS presentations. He read off the units that needed to schedule them. No crews were on the list. I know the Ship hasnt scheduled one. There was no mention about Crews with the Popcorn sales either. The Ship actually did go out and sell Popcorn. For a small unit I think we did pretty well. One young lady in the Ship sold over $500 but got no recognition. It feels like we dont exist. Over the weekend there was a Scout Show at the Mall. Each display was judged and Trophies were handed out. The Crews were placed in with the Troops. (the Ship got 2nd and a crew 3rd place). It seems that our District level people just see the Crews as older Scout Troops with girls. I have been working hard to get the Venturing Advisors together to try and get some District support. I have gotten 1 or 2 other crews on board but most are unwilling to put any effort in to this, but all are complaining they need to recruit more Venturers into their unit. I have been activity trying to get a Venturing Roundtable going. We had one a few years ago but they stopped as none of the crews would attend. It doesnt look like many crews are interested in attending one now either. I think a good deal of this is because most of the Crews are not much more than youth groups that get together a couple of times a month to do their specialty with the adult running everything. At the Scout show I was talking with the Advisor from our newest crew. Thye are a high adventure crew chartered by Gander Mountain (a great idea). He was talking with a 19 year old young lady who works at the store about the Crew. She had no idea that a program like this existed and will be joining this crew. I have to think that there are mnay more youth like this out there but who just don't know about the Venturing Program. I for one would really like to see ideas about promoting Venturing at the District level. I feel that having strong support at the District level will really help out all the crews.

I don't have the numbers, but I would think the number of youth aged from 14 -21 is far greater than any of the other age groups we serve? I can't find a total of Boys and Girls of that age group. One number I can easily find is the number of High School Students we have in our Council which is basically the ages of 14 to 18 (which seems to make up the ages of most Venturers). The county I live in has 23 High Schools with about 25,000 students. The county just to the north has 9 High Schools with 8,000 students. These 2 counties make up about 75% of the total population of the council. Doing some simple math this comes out to almost 45,000 High School age youth in our council. I was told that the council has about 375 registered Venturers. This is only 0.8% of the available High School students in Venturing. I have to think that the BSA can come up with some type of program that can appeal to a larger portion of this age group.

I just heard on the news that the area wherethe Roundtable was to be held may hit 100" of snow by tomoorow night! I'll have to send the suggestion on sending some of the snow down to Houston, Tx. The couple of small cities in this snow area are looking for places to dump the snow as they have just run out of room to put it. They actually have a large open field just out side of town where the have to truck the snow to. They usually give the height of the mound I haven'y heard where its at yet but in a normal winter it gets well over 35' tall.

I just heard on the news that the area wherethe Roundtable was to be held may hit 100" of snow by tomoorow night! I'll have to send the suggestion on sending some of the snow down to Houston, Tx. The couple of small cities in this snow area are looking for places to dump the snow as they have just run out of room to put it. They actually have a large open field just out side of town where the have to truck the snow to. They usually give the height of the mound I haven'y heard where its at yet but in a normal winter it gets well over 35' tall.

We have had NO officers, NO BSA program, NO rangers or rank advancement of any kind. ...quality unit every one... How do you make Quality Unit with No officers when electing Crew officers is a requirement for this? From the VENTURING CREW/SHIP 2006 NATIONAL QUALITY UNIT AWARD (it is also the same on 2004 & 2005 Quality Unit Award) starred [*] items are required *3. Officers. The crew/ship will elect officers and the Advisor or associate Advisor will conduct a crew officers seminar. (This message has been edited by CNYScouter)

It hasnt stop snowing here since Monday morning. Locally it has been just a constant light dusting but a few miles north of here has been getting pounded. Roundtable tonight in the District just to the north of me was canceled. I heard on the news this morning that the town where it is held has gotten 77 of snow since Monday. They are expecting another 18-24 by tomorrow. A month ago we had no snow and it was unseasonably warm weather and we were wondering if we were going to get any snow this year. All the Sea Scouts could talk about at the last meeting was for an early spring to get back out on the water. I dont know if all this snow is going to be melted by then.

I think there is a great deal of potential in the Venturing Program, if the program is used. But I just am not seeing being used. I have met crews from other councils that are growing and active all seems to have youth members that are working on advancement. They also seem to use the Venturing uniform along with their own Crew activity uniform. We have a DE who seems to be using the BSA as an insurance broker. Almost all of the new crews in the District that have been started, the COs just use a Venturing Crew as a way to get the added insurance the BSA offers to run a youth program. I have yet to find another Crew in my district that really uses the Venturing program. The only other Crews in the District with trained Adult Leaders are the 2 High Adventure Crews which are nothing more than offshoots of Troops. Currently both are really just paper units as their members are all away at college. I have had limited success with the Ship in drawing in youth with no Scouting experience. Currently my son is the only one out of 10 registered Sea Scouts that has any previous Scout experience. Around here just seems that the bored older scouts are long gone before they hit Venturing age and the Ship (or other crews) are not having much success in drawing them back into the Scouting program once they are gone. The Ship members would like to hold a council/district Venturing event. I have talked with some of the other crew advisors and they are not interested in doing anything outside their specialty. Its getting expensive having to drive 4 and 5 hours to attend Venturing events as only one other council near here has any type of active Venturing program in place. I don't think it will be much of an event if none of the other crews are willing to even discuss attending. I am trying my best to use the Venturing/Sea Scout program and I am being to see that it does work if used. A few of the Sea Scouts have been meeting a couple of Saturdays a month with a pistol shooting crew. This Saturday is one of the shooting days for the crew. The Ship members have decided to attend the Scout show with the Ship instead. In being a new unit we are coming to end of the calendar that I initially put together and are ready to do a planning session for the upcoming year. They have scheduled the planning session for the other shooting Saturday this month. They see the Shooting Crew as just another activity and no big deal if they miss it. They are looking forward to putting together a schedule and attending Venturing/Sea Scout events. It seems our District people are all slapping themselves on the back as we made Quality District of the first time in many years. It was all due to the 6 or 7 new Venturing Crews (and the Ship) that have been started this year. Already the shooting crews are beginning to worry about membership as they had a big influx of kids at the beginning but now less than a year later most of them dont show up any more. The leadership in these crews are not interested in learning about the Venturing program (during shooting Ive heard the CC trying to talk the Advisors into taking training with little success) and are not interested in do much more than getting together a couple of times a month to shoot. I can see that shooting is pretty cool in the beginning but I dont think showing up a couple of times a month to shoot (or whatever the crews specialty is) will hold the youths interest in the long run and unless they are doing constant recruiting these Crews wont be around very long. Until council start putting together Crews that use the Venturing Program and stop using them to boost numbers we will never see it grow and will have a constant steam of "one-year wonders".

After attending the Winter Training Weekend Close Order Drill is something that the Ship wants to work on. They are working on the plans to attend the Regatta on Memorial Day weekend and want to at least do a decent job in this part of the competition. They would have worked on it earlier but we are attending a Scout Show this weekend and they have been busy working on the display and activities for it, so Drill is on the schedule for the next meeting. As a Scout, my patrol learned the basics of close order drill but just as a way to do a better job at Flag ceremonies. I have never been in the military and wish I had this type of resource available.

One thing our council has been successful at is combining SM Specific and the Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. This takes place on one Tuesday night and then a Friday to Sunday afternoon. On Friday night they offer NLE for anyone who needs ot. One of the reasons we went to this format because no one was taking SM Specific and only taking the Outdoor skills course. We run this twice a year and usually have a waiting list. People have asked about adding other courses during the weekend but it tough enough to get everything in to be done at a reasonable time on Sunday afternoon I think every time we run WLOT someone asks why we cant do BALOO at the same time. I have taken both and about 90% of it is overlapped. The reason I was given why not is that they are intended for different people. If someone is waiting until WLOT to take BALOO its most likely too late to do much good for a Pack so it is offered as a separate course. We try a couple of times a year outside of our Scouting University to offer one-stop training where some can take NLE, YPT and Leader Specific training but I cant say this works any better as they are still not well attended.

I do see that we have a real problem. I see a problem also. I really want us to come up with a program that works. If used the Venturing Program works. The same can be said of the BSA Scout Program. If used it works. Alter it or dont use it is pretty much hit or miss. I have to agree with Parts of what we have right now does work. The council where I took Wood Badge has a very active Venturing Program. Its about 50 miles to the West. The crews in this council use the Venturing program. It was announced during Wood Badge that one the youth had just finished his Gold award. They have a few Venturers that have the Silver and Ranger award. They have an active VOA and have 4 or 5 well attended Venturing events a year. Almost all of there Crews are High Adventure. The Advisors are all trained. Most were in attendance as WB Staffers. I see the program can work if used. During the Sea Scout training weekend I had to agree with what was being said during the Sunday Training session. A lot of what was presented could easily put to use for a Crew. With pushing Scouts to First Class within one year they are not ready to be leaders at 12. They havent had time to learn to be followers yet we are asking them to be leaders. It also hit home when it was said that many scouts have dropped out of the program before they are 14 and are gone before a Venturing Crew can even recruit them. I can see where it was said that if you get them at 13, have them spend a couple of years learning the Sea Scout program and learning to be good followers, they are ready to be leaders. I like to see Crews started jointly with 4 or 5 troops (or just a few Crews in a district). Scouts can join the Crew but need to stay with there Troops also. The higher level leadership/high adventure skills that should be being taught in a Crew can be brought back to the Troop program. In most of the Crews around here this is just not being done. Crews get together a couple of times a month to shoot or golf or do whatever their specialty is and not much else. No advancement, No super activities or much activities outside their specialty. Same can be said of Crews as offshoots of Troops. I have yet to find one that uses the Venturing Program. They are used more as a Venture Patrol as a way for older Scouts to do High Adventure trips away from the rest of the troop. So far I am the only Venturing Leader that isnt doing double duty as a Troop Leader also. I have talked with some of these leaders and they just dont have the time to devote to both units and it seems that the Crews are the ones getting shorted. I think for the Venturing Program to be successful our professional need to stop us form just being an insurance provider for COs to run a youth group. I really like to see more time and effort put into starting new crews, teaching the COs its responsibilities and about the Venturing program and know that they are going to use the program and having trained leaders before a charter has been issued.

How does your district do with Units attending District/Council Events? Our council has a Scout Show coming up next Saturday. Its at 4 different Shopping malls across the council. I just found out that the mall the Ship is going to only 8 units from the district signed up. 2 out of 20 Packs 3 out of 18 Troops 2 Crews and the Ship out of 12 Venturing Units. We are doing this with another District but dont have the numbers for them. I also heard that the other Mall close by doesn't have very many units signed up either. I though maybe that the Troops were not attending because of the Klondike Derby this weekend. This only has about 8 Troops participating and the same 3 that are going to be at the Scout Show are also doing the Klondike Derby. Almost every Venturing Crew I talked with says they need to do recruiting but the numbers show that not very many will be there show thier stuff and promote the unit. When I was a kid in Scouts the Scout Show was one of the biggest events of the year and every unit had a display. It was held either at the large local auditorium or at the fairgrounds. We even got prizes for selling tickets similar to popcorn prizes. It was attended by a large number of Scouts and many non-Scouters also. Every 3 years there is a council-wide Camp-O-Ree with activities for all levels. There is even an area for any WEBELOS that would like to camp. Even then we are lucky if half the registered scouts and units in the council attend. As a Scout I always found these types of events were most fun. the Ship seems to have the most fun when we attend events with other units than to do things on our own. We always seemed to meet other units and Scouts. I always end up networking with other leaders to find out new places and events to attend. Are we really that busy that units can not attend this type of event to promote Scouting? Or is it just units cant be bothered with these if they have little or nothing to do with advancement?

I an usually a big Football and Super Bowl fan. Even though i live in the NE I always have been a Dolphins fan. This fall I talked with someone about taking BSA Lifegurad this winter. I was told there was already a waiting list but if there was an opening they would give me a call. Last weekend I got a call and they was an opening if I still wanted to attend I could. I said OK not realizing that tonight from 6:00pm to 8:30pm is the first pool session. Luckily I live only about 5 mins. form the pool. So, I haven't been paying much attention to all of the hype. And the best thing about this BSA Lifeguard training is that I will be taking it from the same person I took Swimming and Lifesaving MB's when I was a Scout ing the early 70's.

I think with the amount of other choices youth have today if Scouting promises fun, challenges and adventure and meeting are nothing more than MB sessions the decline will continue. Even in this day of declining overall enrollment I see troops that are growing. They arent the MB mills or the adult lead camping clubs but units that do a good job of presenting and using the Scouting program. One thing I noticed that these units dont produce any less Eagles than the Eagle mills. I seen it said here before if you are not going to be the best show in town Scouts will go elsewhere. I also think that we live in the age of instant gratification. Sports allows parents to see instant success in which Scouting often takes years to see its successes. When my son was in Cubs one of the other leaders was a Law professor. He said that he had students complain that they couldnt find research material after spending a whole 5 mins. searching the internet. He would have to point them to the Law Library and tell then that they might actually have to look up a book and read it. I am still not sure about the Venturing program. When I see Crews using the Venturing program, using advancement and teaching leadership and the youth selecting activities, it seems to work well. I just dont see many Crews using the Venturing program. I dont really like the idea of Crews be created just for insurance purposes. Of the 12 other crews in our district none really use the Venturing program. The 2 high adventure crews are offshoots of Troops and at this point only exist on paper as the members are all way at college. The rest are really just clubs that get together a couple of times a month to do their specialty. The problem I see with these specialty crews is exactly what Eamonn points out because youth get into new things all the time, so while First Aid might be something that holds the interest for a while, next month it could be flower arranging or scuba. . A couple of the Sea Scouts have been going with a Shooting Crew. Right know they seem interested but I dont see it lasting over the long term. They had a large group join a year ago when they started but since then most have stopped coming and they are trying to recruit. If it wasnt for the Ship members joining they would only have 3 or 4 out of the original 20 coming. From the units I have met one of the biggest thing that is missing is Leadership. Most have little or no organization to them, not only on the Scout side but with the adults. I have been an ASM with 2 troops but havent really had any responsibilities in either. From what I have seen most adult leaders have no idea what Leadership is much less on how to teach it. Most adults find its just easier to do it themselves than to teach the scouts to do it. Perhaps we need a training program that teaches these skills.  To turn the Venturing program around I think I will need to start at the top. Professionals have no idea on how to organize a Crew or run a Venturing program. They see Crews as an easy way to boost membership in the short term but have no idea what it will take to sustain it in the long run and are supplying no support to do so. Most of the other Crew Leaders I have met are doing double-duty as troop leaders. It seems that because of this the crews are getting the short end of things. They seem to think that the Crews can tag along with the troop for outings and thats OK. At the Sea Scout Training weekend a coupe of things one of the instructors said some things made good deal of since when he was talking about getting kids at 13 years old. He said that most scouts are leaving Scouting before they get to 14 (Venturing age) and it happens around the age of 13. They are having success by getting them at 13 and keeping them interested in Scouting He also said that he thought that most kids are not ready to become leaders at 13 or 14. After a couple of years of learning the Sea Scout program and during this time they are learning to be good followers they are ready to be Ship Leaders at 15 or 16. I also liked his attitude about having Kids form Troops joining the Ship. He didnt allow Scouts to leave their unit to join the Ship. He expected them to take the leadership skills learned with the Ship back to the Scout Troops. But this will only work if crews are going to use the Venturing program and not just be another activity to join. I dont have the answers either but I think something needs to be done if Scouting is going to last another 100 years.

I know how you feel as this sounds like what our Ship is experiencing. We have been trying to work on our charter renewal. The hardest thing is that 3 out of 4 Committee members will not be returning and we need to replace them. Their kids will not be returning either. We havent picked up any bored older Scouts yet either. Next week we are having a booth at the councils Scout show in the local mall and hope to spread the word there. I would look into Girls Scout troops for recruits. I am trying to set up a meeting with a Senior Girl Scout troop that may be interested in joining. We are also looking into the Mariner Girl Scout program. I talked with the local Girl Scout Exec and she thinks they may have a lot young ladies that would be interested and adult leaders also. We are also dealing with the active issue. Right now we are down to 5 or 6 Sea Scouts. There are 3 or so Sea Scouts that would like to go to the regatta in May and are into getting the uniforms and advancement. The other half has no interest in this stuff and only see the Ship as a summer sailing club. We also have been discussing fund-raising. Two kids have said that they (or their parent) dont have the money to attend events but are unwilling to do any fundraising either. Our CO has a couple of boats for sale for us but until they sell them wont do us any good. I think if the adults do plan a fundraiser some of the Sea Scouts will come and participate. I dont like having adults putting this together but we do need operating funds. Our Boatswain quit this fall. After discussing with him what it was going to take on his part to become Boatswain he was willing, but when the time came that he actually needed to do something he decided it was time to take a break from Sea Scouts. I feel sorry for this kid. His parents do everything for him. He was a senior in HS and had no idea on a Thursday night meeting that the following Sunday his parents had made plans for his college visits. (I found this out when he failed to show at a Ships activity) He had real trouble just following an agenda that I had helped him create much less create one on his own. I thought that being Boatswain would be good practice for him as he told me he was going to college to be a priest! We did have a young man visit us last meeting and he may be interested in joining. I am still optimistic that we will grow this spring and slowly get to where I would like the Ship to be. (This message has been edited by CNYScouter)

The Cubmaster of the Pack was son used to be in is a professional firefighter. He is in the codes department and one of his duties is to attend any public event that has an open flame (cooking, fireworks, etc.). At one of the local universitys basketball game he was there working in his firemans uniform. One of the parents came up to him and said: You have another job? I thought that Cubmaster was your full-time job

Perhaps the Supplemental Training Modules on Board of Reviews and Scoutmaster Conferences will help to answer your questions. They can be found at: Board of Reviews http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/18-625/index.html and Scoutmaster Conferences http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/18-629/index.html(This message has been edited by CNYScouter)

I look at Venturing in our council and wonder the same thing. If you look at our councils web site and newsletters there is nothing about the Venturing program. In the latest issue of our councils newsletter they had the top sellers for popcorn. In it were the top sellers for cubs and scouts none for Venturing. One of the young ladies in the Ship sold $550. Still Venturing was the only part that had any growth last year. The District the ship is in has 2 large high schools in it with almost 6,000 students in them. There are only about 125 Venturers registered. The District where I live has twice the number of HS students in it and only has 1 crew with 4 or 5 members that is acts more like a Venture Patrol for the Troop it is associated with. I also know that the Engineering Explorer Post in the District has almost 300 kids in it. Most of the crews in the Ships District are specialty crews. We have the ship, 5 shooting sports crews, a golf crew, a jr ROTC crew, a special needs adult crew and a civil war reenactment crew. Almost all of these have been started in the last year or so. I have yet to find one that really does Scouting and dont do much more than get together a couple of time a month to do their specialty and dont do any trips, service projects or super-activities. Some of the Ship members have been meeting with one of the shooting crews over the winter. Right now they seemed interested but I am not sure if just showing up and shooting will hold their interest in the long run. I have already had some the kids from the shooting crews ask me what other activities the ship does as they were looking to do other things. The 2 out of the 3 High Adventure crews in the district only exist on paper as the crew members are all in college. The 3rd one will be folding next year as its crew members are off to college The Troop associated with this crew will also be folding as once these kids turn 18 there wont be enough Scouts left to charter the Troop. But, the council just to our west, where I took WB, has an active thriving Venturing program. They are all High Adventure crews and the only specialty crew is the Sea Scout Ship that only exists on paper (It has a few members but they have yet to have a meeting). They have an active Venturing Youth Cabinet and hold 4 or 5 well attended Venturing events a year. I also know that the Venturing Leaders in this council are fully trained. A good number of them were on WB staff or taking the course. I know that very few of the Advisors in our council are trained. We have offered Venturing Leaders Specific in the past but havent had anyone sign up. It ran for the first time in 3 years at Scouting University but only one person took it. I do think the suggestion of more intermediate steps in the Advancement program is a good idea. I think that for a youth that has never been involved with Scouts before these are pretty daunting steps before any recognition. Although I see that Venturing is growing in our council I am not sure if the type of crews we have will sustained any long-term growth. I still think the jury is out if the Venturing Program is working or not.

You didnt say this but I am assuming the MBC is an In-Troop counselors and perhaps a Committee Member/ASM? If not just have the Scout get a new card (with a new date) from the SM and have the MBC sign the new one when he completes the badge. Can you get a list of MBCs from the District Advancement Chair and have the Scout use one of these? If the District doesnt keep a list how about contacting another troop and seeing the person they use for the MBC will work on it with the Scout. If the Scout kept all of the work from the requirements he already did and has the outdated old blue card (and explains the situation) this new MBC should have no problem in working them to finish the badge. Along with the no time limit for completion of merit badges, except of the 18th birthday, a SM/Troop Committee has no say if a Scout passed an MB or not. If the Scout has a blue card signed by the SM and a MBC he has the Merit Badge.

The first Troop we were with had its own portable climbing tower. It consisted of 3 levels of construction scaffolding covered with plywood with holds either cut into the wood or fastened to it. The narrow ends had 2 sheets of 4x 8 plywood that mounted the long way which almost came to the top making it just over 16 tall. The long ends were covered with 4 sheets each. This allowed 4 Scouts, one each side and ends, to be on the wall at the same time. At one time it was used a lot, but now due to the liability issues and the availability of local climbing center they only set it up every 3 years at the Council Camp-O-Ree. The cons to owning this outweighed the pros. Pros: They could climb when ever they wanted. Cons: It took most of a Saturday morning to set it up if the Troop was going to use it for a meeting (and another meeting to take it down). For the council camporee a group of Scouts and l2 leaders need to go up a day early to set it up. It took at least 3 pickup truck loads or a large truck to move it. The troop had a leader (even after his son was no longer in the Troop) allow them to store it at his business as it was to big to store in the Troop Room at the CO. If it got set up to use for a troop meeting it needed to be some where out of the way or behind a fence so people couldnt climb it when no one was around. Good climbing rope is expensive and it became costly to maintain and replace ropes when used often, along with the cost of helmets and harnesses. The Troop also had a long-term ASM of 30+ years who at one time was a climbing instructor who had completed the required training that allowed them to use the tower.

Also from the White Stag Leadership Development course on Creating the Patrol Method: Baden-Powell described it most succinctly. In 1888, BP wrote: "The formation of the boys into Patrols of from six to eight and training them as separate units each under its own responsible leader is the key to a good Troop." http://www.whitestag.org/patrol_method/index.html

You can start with the Baden-Powell quote on page 20 of the current Scoutmaster Handbook: "The patrol method is not a way to operate a Boy Scout troop, it is the only way." Other quotes attributed to Baden-Powell about the Patrol Method: The object of the patrol method is not so much having the Scoutmaster trouble as to give responsibility to the boy. It is the Patrol System that makes the Troop, and all Scouting for that matter, a real co-operative matter. The patrol system leads each boy to see that he has some individual responsibility for the good of his patrol. A quote attributed to William "Green Bar Bill" Hilcourt: "A troop is not divided into patrols; it's made up of patrols." Take at look at what it says about Patrols at: http://www.greenbar.ws/4adults/missing/patrolmethod.cfm and http://www.greenbar.ws/4scouts/thepatrol.cfm

I would agree with the numbers that clydesdale115 has given to determine how much to but I would also like to tell you about what happen with the Pack we were with that did some thing like this: When my son was in Cubs the Pack always did an end of year Picnic. The Pack bought Hot dogs, Hamburgers, rolls and condiments. One year we had 110 people say they were going to attend and only 60 showed up. The store did take back any unopened boxes of meat and used the open boxes on our WEBELOS overnight. But we ended up throwing away a bunch of rolls as we couldnt return them (and having to pay for them). They next year we had the exact opposite problem. Only 6 people signed up in advance and 50 showed up. The CM had to run out and buy more food. We found that charging a token amount ($1 per head) solved this, even though we had a few no shows and last minute additions, the head count was much closer to the number that actually showed.