acco40

I agree, the youth should have input but consistency is also a factor. Don't change the rules often. In our troop we have 6 month election cycles (SPL, PLs, etc.). But, the SPL is often re-elected and the usual two-term duration of 1 year exists.

seabear, I think you got the chain of command slightly wrong. The SAs (ASM) report to the SM and the interface between the SPL should be with the SM not the SAs. Think of it in this way. Make a typical business org chart with the SPL on top, ASPLs under him, PLs, patrol members, etc. Make a similar one for the SM and his SAs. The interface beween the two groups should be the SM/SPL interface. Now, sometimes SAs are assigned to patrols, but in general, that is how it works.

If dinosaurs are (were) made out of composites it may be covered in the newest (2006) MB to be introduced by the BSA.

Did his Eagle service project demonstrate leadership? Did his position of responsibilities for Star, Life and Eagle demonstrate leadership? Did his participation level meet the requirement? Did he show Scout spirit? If none of the above were met, he should not have attained Eagle. The above are requirements.

Not the standard "Duty to God", "5K Run", "Activities", "Action Centers", "Outback" segments that go around the Jambo patch. Not sure what they are.

The BSA does discriminate - it has age, gender, and "belief" requirements. Are you suggesting that the BSA or more specifically, BSA LDS units discriminate or illegally discriminate? Could you give more details?

Did they ever find that bicycle in the basement of the the Alamo?

So we agree that the article was satire (regardless of ones view of how humorous or not the article was? If so, who or what does the satire attack or bash? IMO, it pokes fun at those who somehow feel God "blesses" or favors their organization because they are "right" or more moral than others. The hot button issues of God (religion), gays, and politics (Bush/Iraq) are trotted out. However, being an equal opportunity satire it pokes fun at gays (see YMCA, Will & Grace, etc.) too. Now, a satire I would like to see is one about Jenna and Barbara enlisting to go do their duty to fight terrorism.

Whoa, settle down there Greying Beaver. I always wondered why us Bears always seemed to have trouble with the Beavers. What specific part of my post do you disagree with? I believe it to be factual. As for your questions: I belong to the best lodge in all OA - Lodge 29 (Chippewa). The last OA "event" I attended was Brown Sea Island (staffed by the OA) at Jambo. I am not an OA adviser because I feel I can better support the OA in other capacities. As an adult Scouter whose primary role is that of Scoutmaster, my main role in the Order of the Arrow is to support the OA program within my troop. I do this by helping the youth leadership of our troop develop a top notch year round camping program. I strive to set a positive example to the youth membership by acting as an exemplary participant in the Order. I also provide transportation to the monthly OA meetings to the youth of our troop when I attend our district roundtable. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Not a good summer for Scouting - if God is gay, why was an eight year old girl killed at a BOy Scout camp in New Jersey recently? Come on fellas, the article is purely satire and should not be viewed as BSA bashing. Are we that humor impaired?

Man is a funny beast. We swat mosquitoes with glee yet get upset about the killing of baby harp seals because they look so cute. it is a good thing mosquitoes don't scream. Ah yes, the age old question of when does human life begin. A gamete is not considered a "life form" by most and therefore very few try to enact legislation concerning their viability. A zygote is a slightly different matter. Some, but not most(?) don't feel too bad about their survival or destruction. Not much human resemblance resides in a single cell. However, by the time human like features begin to take shape, we become queasy. Heart cells "beat" in an embryo long before they pump any blood. How to draw the line? "But now since it is culturally acceptable to kill our babies, men have nothing to fear in one night stands." STDs, child support payments, fury of a scorned woman - there is much fear to go around! Not that fear should be the motivation factor but as I've always believed, it takes two to tango. Our culture is finding out the vast problems that out of wedlock births, divorces, working mothers and negligent fathers cause are immense. I don't think we are quite their with making it culturally acceptable to kill babies. I think that we (society) struggle with in the USA is our sexuality. Why does the USA have the highest teenage birth rates but not the highest teenage sexual activity?

One more thing - if the troop decides to wear the neckerchief, the troop needs to decide if it will wear it under the collar or over the collar (collar should be rolled under) and ALWAYS with the top button of the shirt unbuttoned. The whole troop should wear it the same way.

To try and answer Rooster's original (loaded) question: Christianity endorses, encourages, mandates proselytizing. Many non-believers find it annoying or worse. Regardless if true or not, most don't take to kindly to being called a sinner, condemned to hell, immoral, etc. Many believers of other faiths find it blasphemous. For example, how would devout Christians like for someone to come in, explain to them that their beliefs were misguided or worse yet wrong (look at the reception Merlyn gets from many on this forum) and attempted to convert them to something else? Some like me, find some (a very small minority) Christians to be self-righteous bores. I am very glad that in the USA being an American doesn't predispose one to be a certain faith. For example, it is hard to differentiate or separate Polish identity from the Catholic faith. We don't have that "problem" here in America (although Merlyn and others may not agree due to our Judeo-Christian leanings).

Ed, how do you like advancement chair? Right now, I view our troop as SM/SA rich and committee poor. The view is if one is serious about adult leadership one becomes a SA. If not, one becomes "just" a committee member. I wish I could help make the committee stronger. Our troop needs it.

Ed, I thought you were a SM - why on Earth do you have questions for the BOR? LPC-Thumper - your comment reminds me of the joke - What are the three phases of a man's life? 1) Tri-weekly 2) Try weekly 3) Try weakly

Grey Beaver (gotta love that moniker) - according to your statement, I could not be a member of the OA (which I am). I am neither a registered boy scout(sic) nor a registered female scouter. What is the purpose of adult OA members? It is not to recognize them, it is only when that persons job in BOY SCOUTING or VARSITY SCOUTING will make the Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership. My interpretation - has reliable transportation and willing to transport youth to OA events and meetings!

I am not a Bush II supporter. I never voted for him. I don't like many of his policies. His "smirk" drives me up a wall. However, I respect the office of the presidency and actually shed a tear during his speech at the Jamboree. Look at what he said - he had condolences for the Scouters who lost their lives at Jambo, thanked the hosts, praised Scouts and their program. Not very political in my book. The military supplied the base, much needed manpower in the form of MPs and others, supplied many vehicles and supplies and were great hosts. In return we (Scouts and Scouters) supplied them with a training opportunity. They learned that when they tell 12 to 17 year old boys to do something it does not alway occur! The military or more correctly, the armed services(Army, Army National Guard, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard) all had displays which varied from a display of vehicles and technology, Q&A, simulators, etc. But just like the relationships tents where many religions were represented and information could be had - no overt recruiting occurred that I witnessed by either the military or the various religious organizations.

Eamonn, your post really hits home. On one of our campouts, a 15 year old Scout (Star) started accusing about half of the troops Scouts of stealing his $5. After overhearing him accuse a few Scouts I went over to him and asked him to explain. He said he was sure he had $5 in the front pocket of his jeans and now it wasn't there. Well, lo and behold, about two hours later he came to me and said he found the missing bill. I asked him where it was and his reply was that he looked in his RIGHT front pocket but later on on a whim looked in his LEFT front pocket and there it was! I explained to him the damage he may have done by accusing so many of theft but I really think it all went over his head. The night before we left the National Jamboree, we packed up our tents, tarps, gear etc. and slept out under the stars - ready for an early morning departure. I used an old plastic table cloth for a lost and found of troop items. I had at least ten council made Jambo t-shirts, three 2005 Jambo t-shirts, two pair of scout pants and a treasure trove of water bottles, and miscellaneous stuff. I repeatedly asked the boys to claim them and all insisted it was not theirs. Some actually had names on the items and the boys were still reluctant to take them (they would have had to open their bags, put the stuff in and zip them back up a VERY laborious chore! ;-) Kids, always accusing others of theft and I sure can tell who paid for their belongings!

Gay parents, accordianists, bag pipers, tuba players? Just to keep the subject matter amoving target ... Today I heard that two Canadian men, both avowed straight, heterosexuals, decided to marry each other to take advantage of the tax benefits available to married couples. Ed, you asked TJ when he discovered he was gay. I know for myself I can't pinpoint when I discovered I was heterosexual. Can you?

As a neutral observer, I think the key word is "charged." Until a legal determination of guilt arises, I would not take action unless I was directly involved with the youth (i.e. parent, Scoutmaster, etc.) wrt his Scouting "career." Scouts, Scouters and former Scouts have committed a cornucopia of murders, robberies, rapes etc. just like the rest of the population. We are not that much different from others regardless of what others say. That is not a knock on the program, just my observance. During Jamboree, one of the Scouts in our contingent troop was caught igniting a can of bug spray with matches - like many youth before him and many after him will do. I'm not condoning his actions but realize what adolescent behavior can do. Committing such actions on a military base may make the "crime" a federal offense, a felony but it was something we handled by the troop without involving the military.

In the world of testosterone laden men, doing push-ups on command is a power issue. Do teachers request public school students to perform push-ups for misbehavior? Scoutmasters, if one of your SAs or members of the committee did not perform their duties to your satisfaction would you request they perform push-ups? If your COR attended one of your meetings and noticed that one of your scouts did not have the official BSA pants/shorts on and then proceeded to dress you down because you, the Scoutmaster, were not following the uniform method and ordered you to do 20 push[ups would you feel that was appropriate? If not, why on Earth would you feel it appropriate for your Scouts to do the same?

First, I attended the Jamboree as a contingent Scoutmaster. I also toured DC on Friday-Sunday and walked around extensively outside on those days. The US Army told the BSA leadership that the opening arena show should not take place the way the BSA planned it on SATURDAY - four days before the event was to take place. The weather forecast was accurate and the heat and humidity were NOT a surprise on Saturday. Reports of not enough water were bogus. Water was available everywhere. Yes, Scouts were told that they would have to empty out their water containers once they reached the arena sight but once there, would receive bottled water. All Scouts/Scouters needed to pass through a magnetometer for security - a major choke point that was the cause for taking up to four hours to "load" everyone into the arena. Scouts were "required" to wear their field uniform (a term never used at AP Hill, much to my chagrin) to the arena show. Around 6:00 PM they were told they could remove their field uniform shirts. About ten minutes later the event was canceled. The reason (publicly) for the cancellation was not the heat but a impending storm (lightning). The head index was 118 deg on Wednesday, 112 on Tues, over 100 on Monday. Personally, I drank more water than I ever had before. I wore a hat. I wore sun screen (I'm a red head and don't take the sun very well). My legs were bright red - not due to sunburn but due to heat rash. I'm almost 50 years old, sit at a desk most of the day, overweight by about 45 lbs and survived the Jambo fine. I rarely sat in camp but did walk around extensively. ASM1, I'm sorry to say that I had a big problem with visitors at the Jamboree. I wish in all future Jamborees that the BSA would either charge an admittance fee or not allow visitors. Why for the arena show, with 75,000 in attendance, should the Scouts and their leaders who paid to attend (under 45,000) have to sit in the back? Every Jamboree the BSA states that the participants have priority over visitors but it does not occur. Our boys had to wait hours in line for scuba, exhibits, action centers, etc. due to long lines - many containing visiting Scouts. The BSA needs to correct this problem. Reveille was at 6:00 AM every morning. The "advertised" time in the Jamboree leaders guide was 7:00 AM. The arena show attendees were not able to get back to their sub-camps until midnight at the earliest, many not until between 1:00 - 2:00 AM. Providing the kids with six (max) to four hours of sleep borders on abuse. I agree with NWScouter, the Scouts were told what they should do but did they follow? I know the military was aghast at some of our behavior. Adults and kids alike seemed to refuse to walk on the proper side of the road and repeatedly blocked traffic including emergency vehicles. The MPs got in the face of a few Scouts and Scouters and I'm glad they did. The trash that was dropped on the ground by the Scouts and Scouters was massive. I spent 20% of my time picking up trash everywhere I went. There were plenty of receptacles. Shameful. The behavior of the Scouts at the closing show was horrible. I was stepped on, had full water bottles hit me, heard constant cursing, talking, etc. The show was not the best (the BSA tried to cram the opening stuff into the closing show and many of the Scouts "revolted") but that was no excuse for their behavior. However, overall I had a great experience. The military were great hosts. The staff performed well. Our sub-camp commissioners and chaplains were great. I thought the food was superb. The heat was a problem but I was told that it was the warmest stretch since 1935. The events were first class. I surveyed the boys in our troop and all enjoyed their stay.

What about assigning work details as punishment? For example, many units assign latrine clean-up duty to Scouts who have not acted in an appropriate manner. What are your thoughts on that? At the National Jamboree push-ups were used as a task to gain a benefit (SEAL t-shirt, scuba pin, etc.) The boys loved the challenge! Personally, I don't like positive things used as punishment. It gives the wrong connotation to the activities. How many know judges who "sentence" someone to community service? How do you think this warps the perception of performing community service? The same goes for different forms of exercise.

OGE, I'm no Hillary apologist but ... The thrust of the article was about illegal alien High School graduates, with good academic credentials, being able to attend colleges as "residents" and having them pay the same fees as international students. Now how did they get high school diplomas in the first place? Illegal aliens should not be working and I think (but am not sure) that public schools do not have to take them. Should we, the US, use some sort of criteria for granting citizenship for illegal aliens? If an IA graduates from a high school with an excellent citizenship and academic record should that weigh in the decision process? What about colleges grades?

When my oldest son was four years old I was sitting on the couch with him watching the NBC news. It was about the time of the Muslim/Serb/Croat slaughtering in Bosnia/Serbia, etc. so I was watching with remote control in hand to shield my son from any explicit violence. With no cable, my channel selections were around 6 or 7 channels. I briefly came across Entertainment Tonight or some other tripe and they were showing some nubile young starlet in a bikini. I was on the channel for about five seconds and then went on to the next station. Suddenly my four year old asked me to go back to ET. Then he said, "I don't know why I like this but I do." I was somewhat surprised, amused and dare I say it relieved? Trevorum, I'm no expert on LDS but I don't think that the LDS feels that females are necessarily unfit to be Scout leaders. They do not allow them to be Scoutmasters for their units but for a different reason. For their church, Scouting is used as a young mens ministry. It is THE official youth group for boys. As such, they do not allow women leaders.(This message has been edited by acco40)