acco40

When I was a Scoutmaster, two of my assistants expressed an interest to meet with me and our Committee Chair on the topic of starting a Venturing Crew with members of our troop. I told them that unless they had boys who were over or close to aging out of the troop (18 yr of age) or wanted to admit females - what was the point? I believe in peer based patrols so although we didn't call them by New Scout, Regular and Venture patrols, that is essentially what they were. As such the Venture Patrol could organize patrol outings (spelunking, backpacking or whatever). I told them to knock themselves out but I didn't have an interest in being apart of a new unit. From a Scoutmaster's point of view, a Venturing Crew can be seen as simply a poaching device to take the older boys away from his troop - i.e. his good SPL/ASPL candidates. I think one of the flaws many troop make, which drives away some of the older boys, is to try and do everything in troop fashion - having the 16 & 17 year olds doing the same activities as 10 & 11 year olds. That is a problem. The older boys should have more expertise, leeway, self direction and latitude in what they do within the confines of the troop. Not a different set of rules mind you, but different expectations.

I agree with Scoutmaster42. That's why I wear my Sunday School perfect attendance pin I earned in kindergarten to work each day. Everyone should know of my accomplishment.

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your treatment.

At the last jambo, the military tried to convince the BSA that holding the opening ceremony as scheduled was a giant health issue. The BSA, who seemed to be more interested in getting the free publicity of the president's speech with a group of Scout's behind him than in the health of the boys, chafed at that and went forward as planned. When approximately 600 scouts were evacuated from A.P. Hill and another 1500 treated for various heat related health issues, they decided that maybe they would listen this year. Not sure if it was because of the bad publicity from 2005 or concern for health issues this time around. IMHO, it helps to have a "tripping point" going in so that the "heat" of the moment doesn't impair judgment. One can argue the details now - 90F, 95F, etc. but decide now and enforce during Jambo.

A couple of observations. 1) An activity uniform is a full uniform. So is the field uniform. 2) As scouters, we have promised to deliver the scouting program and one of the methods of that program in the Uniform. 3) A scout who is nervous or apprehensive about being recognized as a scout to the general public is hesitant to wear the uniform. Those who are proud to be a scout are not hesitant to wear the uniform in a public setting. 4) The same reasons for not wearing a uniform to a troop meeting can be made for not wearing a uniform to an Eagle Court of Honor. 5) Scouts consist of teenage boys, a group of individuals who are very, very unsure of themselves and are heavily influenced by peer pressure. I remember my grade school days where it was a special treat to wear our Cub Scout uniform to school on the days we had den meetings. The den meetings were not held at the school but were at the den mothers (not leaders) house immediately after school. Times have changed. When I was Scoutmaster, the SPL asked me if the troop could wear an activity uniform to troop meetings in the summer (an unairconditioned church). The previous Scoutmaster did not allow it for whatever reason. I stated I had no issue but asked that they could begin immediately after the first troop meeting where the whole troop showed up in their full field uniform. That usually took a month. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Al Gore, internet inventor, Troop 101, Carthage Tennessee.

Yes, understandable response from a witness and an outstanding response from the SM and SPL. For me, I'd much rather have 12 year old boys happily playing near by my "final resting place" than weepy, solemn and possibly bored children; but that's just me.

I know Scouts who earned the fingerprinting MB from the director of the FBI. Some have earned cinematography from Steven Steilberg (before he "left" scouting). How cool is that? Scouts have a Scoutmaster at Jambo. They can sign paperwork if needed. My boys enjoyed having Navy Seals barking at them to drop and give me 20 push-ups on the spot - which earned them some sort of trinket (patch or pin I forget). That is what they enjoyed the most! Go figure. To each Scout his own.

Nice, I like the visuals - it works well with boys of Scouting age. However, be careful about the "flag" comment It has has their troop number, their council patch, and a US flag. We really don't have a miniature flag on our uniform - that would be against the flag code. We have a patch or flag emblem. I know to many that is a subtle difference but it is important to remember.

I'm old fashioned. I think the on-line courses should be a prep class for the "real" course - the course they used to have. Same goes for position specific training - Scouters should be trained before they have a position, not afterwards. Also, after the training the participants should be made to show some level of competency - just like the boys! I don't know how many courses I've taught where it was just treated as a money make for the council. Had participants leave early, skip portions, etc. and still "graduate."

They will need to shuffle papers & put someone over 21 in the position at least on the forms until he reaches age. Eagle92, my comments were not directed at you nor Moosetracker directly but those anonymous folks who think that the above is a good idea.

I would hope all the Scouts in the BSA are gang members. It is called the Patrol Method in other circles. :0

guess if we continue to think of ourselves by race, sex, religion, origin and not as just people that unfortunately may be true. I think the problem is that we transfer too much adult baggage onto our kids. When very young chidren are given cards with faces of adults - male, female, black, white, etc. and they are simply asked to separate them into piles, more will separate them based on race than on gender. As adults, we may look at this a "bad" or "wrong" but that's only because we put a value judgment on this separation. A child can easily see that a black person and a white person are different - skin tone, hair texture, etc. They may readily notice more differences in gender if we all went around naked and their sex hormones had already kicked in but at a young age but that has not happened. Now, if a young child gets feedback from his parents that somehow noticing this difference is "wrong" - they must wonder why and all sorts of reasons may pop into their heads. As adults our "uncomfortableness" with "race issues" can lead us to avoid the topic all together. So, is having adult male Scoutmasters such a bad idea? For decades, it was assumed that children see race only when society points it out to them. However, child-development researchers have increasingly begun to question that presumption. They argue that children see racial differences as much as they see the difference between pink and bluebut we tell kids that "pink" means for girls and "blue" is for boys. "White" and "black" are mysteries we leave them to figure out on their own. It takes remarkably little for children to develop in-group preferences. Vittrup's mentor at the University of Texas, Rebecca Bigler, ran an experiment in three preschool classrooms, where 4- and 5-year-olds were lined up and given T shirts. Half the kids were randomly given blue T shirts, half red. The children wore the shirts for three weeks. During that time, the teachers never mentioned their colors and never grouped the kids by shirt color. The kids didn't segregate in their behavior. They played with each other freely at recess. But when asked which color team was better to belong to, or which team might win a race, they chose their own color. They believed they were smarter than the other color. "The Reds never showed hatred for Blues," Bigler observed. "It was more like, 'Blues are fine, but not as good as us.' " When Reds were asked how many Reds were nice, they'd answer, "All of us." Asked how many Blues were nice, they'd answer, "Some." Some of the Blues were mean, and some were dumbbut not the Reds. Bigler's experiment seems to show how children will use whatever you give them to create divisionsseeming to confirm that race becomes an issue only if we make it an issue. So why does Bigler think it's important to talk to children about race as early as the age of 3? Her reasoning is that kids are developmentally prone to in-group favoritism; they're going to form these preferences on their own. Children naturally try to categorize everything, and the attribute they rely on is that which is the most clearly visible. We might imagine we're creating color-blind environments for children, but differences in skin color or hair or weight are like differences in genderthey're plainly visible. Even if no teacher or parent mentions race, kids will use skin color on their own, the same way they use T-shirt colors. Bigler contends that children extend their shared appearances much furtherbelieving that those who look similar to them enjoy the same things they do. Anything a child doesn't like thus belongs to those who look the least similar to him. The spontaneous tendency to assume your group shares characteristicssuch as niceness, or smartsis called essentialism. - Newsweek http://www.newsweek.com/2009/09/04/see-baby-discriminate.html(This message has been edited by acco40)

I know ... let's make him the defacto Scoutmaster and put someone else's name down on the paperwork because we know that 20 year olds can't be Scoutmaster! What part of trustworthy or obedient do the Scouters in this scenario not understand? And they want this person to be the role model for their boys?

will put up with Michael Moore but the fairy of the ball, my God Baden Powell must be rolling over in his grave. Yes, he should have kept his homosexuality quiet just like BP. (This message has been edited by acco40)

What if you went to a troop and they didn't allow a 20 year old, highly qualified in child psychology, camping skills, physical fitness, knot tying, citizenship, etc. skills be a Scoutmaster? Would you walk? One thing I noticed when I was Scoutmaster was that some of the Scouts "clicked" much better with certain SAs than they did with me. So, I utilized that connection. I'm not indicating that they were "better" or not. I think people tend to confuse equality under the law with being the same. I'm not female. I'm not black. I'm not right handed. That makes me in some instances, a better role model or teacher to a left handed, white, male. That does not mean I'm in favor of excluding certain folk or make me "better" in any way. I just feel that if a Scout Troop feels it is in the best interest of the Scouts to limit leadership to males let them. I may not agree but please don't jump to a conclusion that that they are teaching or believe that women or inferior to men.

It is not that women can't teach as well. It's not that women are not as capable. The fact is that boys (and girls) tend to pick as role models folks that are like them - in appearance! That is why it is important for black male children to see successful black male adults to emulate. Same for white female children and the rest of the world population. That doesn't make anyone better or worse, that's just human nature.

I'm an engineer, I thrive on technicalities. My salary is quoted as so many dollars per month, yet I'm paid on a bi-weekly basis. I asked why my check amount doesn't increase in magnitude in February and decrease in March. I get confused looks by those sorry business majors in the accounting department. Yes, if a rank was earned on the "15th" of a month, it is easy to determine a six or four month tenure. But for the particular example given, earning 1st Class on 10/31 when does the four months duration in rank be met? My guess would be February 28 (or 29 if a leap year). So either use four complete months (Nov, Dec. Jan, Feb in the example above) or the same numerical day (i.e. the 15th) if it does not.

Moosetracker - I think your emotions are clouding your judgment (I'm resisting a snide female comment here ). Do you think there are any advantages from having an all male or all female educational institution? There are some, specifically for adolescents but I have choosen to send my children, daughter and sons, to schools that are open to both genders. However, I concede that there are advantages (and disadvantages) to single gender educational institutions. So, is it such a stretch to state that there may be an advantage to a single gender scout troop and that those who feel there is, they be allowed to form one? Heck, we have historical black colleges and universities and some feel these are a great thing, others a superb waste of time. So like Jerry Seinfeld, there is nothing wrong with limiting the participation of female scouters by a charter organization although it's not my cup of tea. I would hesitate to denigrate those who feel it is beneficial.

Again, epaulette colors are not changeable, they come with the shirt. One only has the option of changing the color of the shoulder loops they wear (unless they actually want to dye the shirt). This faux pas drives me nuts almost as much as those who transpose the words "itch" and "scratch."(This message has been edited by acco40)

Before anyone blows a gasket - take a deep breadth and read carefully. Men and women are not equal. That is a fact. Should they be given equal protection under the law? Different question. Should they be treated differently in the BSA? The fact is they are (facilities, sleeping arrangements, etc.). Used to be only females could be den leaders. Only males Cubmaster and Scoutmaster. Now, the BSA allows both genders to serve these roles and as many have correctly pointed out, charter organizations may be more restrictive. My son may not play on the girls basketball team at his high school yet he is a better basketball player than the majority of the players. Is that fair? My daughter is restricted on what roles she may aspire to in the USN, USA, USMC and USAF (she has her sights on being a submariner which is now feasible ). Is that fair? There are all female and all male schools and hot debates if those are a good thing or not. Part of the role of adults in the BSA is to serve as a role model. If youth troop members are restricted to males (boys) only, are not adult males better role models than adult females? Should this cause a unit to restrict females in membership (i.e. no youth, limited adult roles)? These are all good questions and I'd hesitate to label any troop that limited adult females to specific roles as "antiquated", "wrong", etc. My son and I chose not to join a troop that didn't allow female Scoutmasters but that was not the only reason we decided not to go with that troop. In the troop that I served as Scoutmaster I had many single mothers tell me that the reason they had their son in Boy Scouts was so that they would get some adult male influence in their son's life. I've also known female Scoutmasters who have done an excellent job. Not all troops are best for all boys. I think having a variety of choices is a good thing. For my own children, I have choosen to not have them attend single gender schools. The world isn't single gender and I think a co-ed scouting program would be wonderful (a la Scouts Canada) but I admit their are drawbacks.(This message has been edited by acco40)

If Eagle is the goal, why on Earth would anyone complain if the Scout perceives himself to be "done" after he earns that rank? On the other hand, if the goal is character building, citizenship and physical fitness - we are never done. The problem is that selling the aims to a 10 or even 11 year old boy is tuff. So we hold teh carrot of Eagle, adventure and fun. Then we act surprised when a 16 year old who has earned Eagle and doesn't get a lot of adventure and fun hanging out with a "gang" comprised mostly of boys 2 to 3 years younger than him, and no members of the opposite sex mind you, seems disinterested in the program.

have the new centenial **** y with blue epilletts First of all, I'm not aware of any BSA uniform with blue epaulettes. Now, shoulder loops are a different story.

Count months? I'll tell you flat out that if a Scout has documentation that he earned Star on 2/23 and Life on 7/3 on his Eagle application, it will be rejected. Yes he was Star in six different months, February, March, April, May & July but not for a duration of six months.

To get back to the DAOM, it is called "District" not because of district service but because it is awarded by the district. A district may award a certain number of awards based on how many units, how many were awarded the previous year, etc. (not hard rules mind you but fairly firm guidelines). It definitely can and has been awarded to those who have unit service only. However, it is rare to have unit service only sometimes by dedicated Scouters. Note the The nominees attitude toward and cooperation with the district and/or council is to be taken into consideration. guideline. As for adult awards, lets look at this from a Scouts persepective. Just like he has rank, merit badge, special patches (Paul Bunyan, World Conservation, etc.) to earn - so do I as a Scoutmaster. I think I'm providing a "role model service" to be cognizant of these awards. Our council has a special numbered hiking medal award one may earn - both adult and youth - that requires backpacking, winter hike, canoeing and writing a paper on a certain historical figure. A group of us took the hike and all of the boys completed the requirements to earn the medal (7 of them) but only two of the three adults who took the hike. How hard was it for the adult to write the paper? A piece of cake compared to a 13 or 14 year old Scout. I didn't so much write the paper to earn the award/medal, but to show the boys that I have the same expectations for myself as I do for them. As they strive for Eagle, shouldn't I strive to earn the Scoutmaster Award of Merit, Scoutmaster's Key Award and Scout Leader's Training Award? I fully realize that by earning these awards and putting them on my "formal" Scout shirt some adults look upon it as mutually exclusive - he's really in it to get awards, not help the boys - but hey, let them think that. What I noticed is that sometimes the Scouts, more so the younger ones, would ask what they were for and I got a chance to explain to them that just like them, I could earn awards too. I also added that to get these awards many folks had to help me - like having the troop earn Quality Unit, have the boys use the patrol method, have the Scouts advance, etc. i.e. - I could not have done that without them!