acco40

The responses to my post proves my point. Folks "hear" what they want to hear. Dealing with other folks "precious" children is frought with emotional baggage for some. Mythbuster - please suggest the best way a Scoutmaster should convey to a parent that their son is not ready for a POR such as DC? I had a pair of parents that were bound and determined that their son would earn Eagle before he turned 13. The Scout was an oldest child, had difficulty getting along with other Scouts and did very well in school. He needed a POR for a rank (Life I think) and ran for PL and lost. He ran for SPL and was not chosen by the Scouts. He arranges (via his mother's email so maybe it wasn't him ) a SM conference with me. I let him know that I'd be glad to meet with him but according to my records he had not met his POR requirement yet. Well he shows up at the SMC with his "lawyer" (mother) and emails from the district advancement chair. In her eyes, the Scout was the troop librarian (or was it historian?) and she asked the district advancement chair if a Scoutmaster could "deny" the POR requirement from a Scout if he had served in that position. The advancement chair responded correctly, no they may not. So here I am having a SMC for life with a 12 year old who is telling me I have to sign off on his advancement because the district said so. Forget the fact that the Scout was not appointed to any POC by either me or the SPL. Hell hath no fury like a mother whose son is scorned? These kind of situations happen when pushy parents are in "attack" mode when it comes to their son's advancement. I realize that some SMs, Committee Chair's, etc. can be just as bad but the best way to deal with them is to sit down with them NOT AT TROOP MEETING, but at a convenient time for both and quietly inquire about certain decisions the SM may have made that you are interested in. Also, educate yourself with training. As a SM, I got fairly callous with parents who had absolutely no training, refused to take any, yet always were there willing to give "advice" about a program they knew nothing about.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Here's how these traditions or myths begin and then later get twisted into "deception" or "Uniform Nazi" or whatever comments. Rule: A den chief is an older Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer. He is selected by the senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster. he is approved by the Cubmaster and pack committee for recommendation to the den leader. he is registered as a youth member of a troop, team, or crew. Scoutmaster judgment: The mother of a Tenderfoot, who just crossed over in March, comes to the Scoutmaster in August and states, "I"m the den leader for Johnny's brother's den and would like for him to be the den chief. The Scoutmaster realizes that the request should come from the Cubmaster, not a den leader. Also, he knows the perils of having older brothers "chief" for their younger brother's den especially if their parent is the den leader. He also feels that Johnny is not ready and has in the wings an older Scout looking for a POR who has already had den chief training. Not wanting to be rude he tells the mother, let's wait until Johnny reaches first class before we give him this type of assignment. The mother, hears "you must be first class to be a den chief" and explains this "rule" to anyone who will listen. Tradition or rule?: Fast forward to the next year and another crop of new scouts joins the troop. Another mother with a similar situation wants her son to be a den chief and expresses her desire to - not the Scoutmaster - but in casual conversation with the other mother who promptly tells her, "no, your son can't be a den chief until he earns first class." She reads up on this, finds out this is not a requirement and confronts the Scoutmaster about his "deception."

Let's call it what it is - Eagle Leadership Service Project Workbook. Callign it the "Eagle Application" is lazy and confusing. It is not the Eagle Application. The ELSPW may be hand written, typed, use the provided paper publication, various electronic forms or written from scratch - by hand or electronically. The important part is the project contain the necessary information andbe the Scout's best effort. We are not mandating perfection of either the Scout or Scouters involved.

A Scout should be expected to do his best on his ELSPW write-up - regardless of age or ability. It is up to us, as adults, to motivate him and guide him so that he does put his best into it. For some, the best may yield eloquent prose. For others, a struggle for complete sentences. It is up to us to know the Scouts stengths, weaknesses, abilities, etc. so that we have an idea of what their "best" effort may accomplish and act appropriately in our roles as Scoutmasters, Eagle mentors and Advancement Chairs.

Are we talking about the Eagle Scout Rank Application (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-728_web.pdf) or the Eagle Leadership Service Project Workbook? (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-927.pdf) I'll assume the former. There is not much chance for poor English on the Eagle app. It asks for dates, address, etc. so your question doesn't make sense to me. If you meant the ELSPW - as an Eagle Scout advisor/Scoutmaster - my expectation is that the write-up is his best effort. If I saw a few errors, I'd point them out with a "fix this" type comment and not make the correction myself. If I saw quite a few errors (and assumed he was using me due his laziness) I simply tell him to go back and re-do.

Feast your eyes. scentweakly.blogspot.com

When Nixon visited "Red" China back in the day (1974?) there were lots of news snippets about what life/society was like in that country. Lots of uniformed Chinese children were shown marching - and the public reaction was about the "Godless, centralized, communist state" emphasizing the "state" over the "family." I recall a really interesting counterpoint that was shown too. It was a similar type snippet made by the same USA news organization that portrayed American society. They showed bunch of Cub Scouts marching in a parade carrying flags. Really the same images as the Chinese video but since it was not foreign to us, we took away a much different connotation. Don't forget, most WOS organizations do not have a religious litmus test like the BSA. In totalitarian states, they want to be the disseminators of values, not an organization that they don't control. Therefore, they may have something "like" Scouting but state run (Hitler youth?).(This message has been edited by acco40)

I mean, if you have two equally qualified and experienced candidates, but one is an Eagle and the other is not, the Eagle Scout has a little more experience. Um, not quite VigilEagle04. If they were equally qualified and experienced they would have the same experience. If they were "about the same" and one were/is an Eagle that may imply they had more leadership experience. But possibly, one may have been the captain of his football, basketball, baseball team and an atheist (and thus not a Scout) and the other an Eagle Scout (but never a Patrol Leader or SPL - lots of Librarian, Scribe and Historian PORs). Who would you hire for a position that required leadership? Bottom line, I think it would be an extremely rare case that by listing that one earned the Eagle rank would hurt one in a job application. It just may help. I encouraged both of my sons to list it on any employment application they fill out.(This message has been edited by acco40)

SSSScout - what time frame are you referencing? I'm thinking back to 1966-67 timeframe - back when we had the cool Cub Scout hat throughout the program! In that time frame we were not helping others but were more interested in being square! Look it up. From wikipedia Webelos was also an acronym meaning Wolf, Bear, Lion, Scout. It has since come to mean "WE'll BE LOyal Scouts". The initial rank structure was Wolf, Bear and Lion, with ages of 9, 10 and 11. From scouting.org Cubs advanced from Bobcat (for all new members) to Wolf (age 9), Bear (age 10), and Lion (age 11) and joined a Boy Scout troop at age 12. In 1967, the Webelos to Scout program was initiated and as a consequence the Lion rank bit the dust. So, I'm thinking back when Webelos was not a rank (pre-1967) and just a transition level for those that earned Lion and were working on the AOL (about a three month period I believe). I think those that earned the AOL were called Webelos but it was not a formal rank (neither was Bobcat back then). From http://www.troop97.net/bsahist3.htm History of Webelos. Created in 1941, the original Webelos program consisted simply of a new Webelos rank which boys could earn during their last few months in Cub Scouting. To earn the new rank, Cub Scouts first had to earn Lion, and they had to learn the skills required for the Boy Scout Tenderfoot badge. The Cub Scouts who worked on the Webelos rank were not yet called Webelos, and they remained in a regular Cub Scout den. In 1954, 10-1/2 year olds were organized into special Webelos dens, although they still had to earn Lion to qualify for the Webelos rank. In 1967, Cub Scouting dropped the Lion rank, extended the Webelos program from six months to the last year of Cub Scouting, and created the first 15 Webelos activity badges. In 1977, they added a new Webelos rank (the old Webelos rank was now called the Arrow of Light rank). In 1987, the Webelos program added five more activity badges (for a total of 20), and realigned the requirements of several activity badges to more closely match the requirements for the Boy Scout Tenderfoot rank. In 1988-89, the Webelos program was expanded to cover the last two years of Cub Scouting, though the BSA soon after began encouraging packs to graduate Webelos in February instead of May or June (so they could get started with a Scout troop before summer, and thus be less likely to drop out over the summer).

I was taught that we used information provided in the BS handbook, field book, or merit badge booklets as our resources when we instructed scouts. This ensured that the scouts had references for future consultation that was consistent with BSA "guidelines". I agree that when doing instruction, we should follow what the BSA publications state as "how to." That does not mean that we exclude other resources but for something like CPR - we should teach it the way the BSA publications instruct. Not all first aid, wilderness survival "guides" are in total agreement.

Sounds about right, based on people I know from Michigan, Ohio, etc. who are living in New Jersey. What I don't get is, why the huge enclave of soda-speakers around St. Louis, in the middle of "pop" country and on the edge of the Coke belt? And the smaller enclave in eastern Wisconsin. Also, is there a colony of Texans in northwest California? But anyway... Possibly due to Beer? St. Louis and Milwaukee (small pockets of "soda" drinkers surrounded by "pop" connoisseurs) are beer capitals as well.

Like a successful football coach, you've got to know the individual to know what motivates them. For my second son, I just agreed with him when he said he didn't want to work toward Eagle. He is highly competitive on some things, couldn't care less on other things (like school work unfortunately). I simply stated, "yeah, I know what you mean. You probably could earn it like your brother." Next thing I know, he had a project picked out and was moving toward completion.

I don't know what to do, I'm growing old and feeble, and I can bear no more. Wood Badge is great if one ignores those pesky Beavers.

NJCubScouter - what, you've never been to Atlanta and heard somebody order a "rootbeer coke"? I moved the the highest concentration of "pop" callers to "soda" callers and back again. I can also add that the "learning curve" is about 20 years. It took me about 20 years of living in St. Louis to start calling pop soda (soda was something with ice cream in it) and then after moving back to Michigan, it's taken me about 20 years to go back to pop. The correct term is soda pop but nobody uses that term. Yes, I'm curious to about "other" respondents. As for LDS, they are the elephant in the room - they have the numbers, dollars and rightly so, the influence. Some don't like that of course. I just wonder about those special undergarments? Does the insignia guide address those?

I think trying to "make do" without a first aid kit, compass, etc. isn't the message we want to make. Something about "Be Prepared" or something like that. The "whiskey" issue is a non-issue. Having alcohol isn't a bad idea. It cleans, burns and medicates!

If my fuzzy brain doesn't mislead me. When I was a Cub Scout we went from Wolf, Bear, Lion to Webelos to Scout (i.e. Scout and yes, I know I'm missing Bobcat but we never really looked at that as a rank). Webelos - get it? None of this We Be Loyal Scouts ebonics. I don't recall if Webelos was an actual rank or transistion period. Anyone care to refresh my memory?

Which is about a $283 delta per month (not much but if you think of it as about a 20% raise it sounds tremendous!

Sometimes it's not always about "us." I didn't go through a graduation ceremony when I earned my BS degree. I did go through a graduation ceremony when I earned my MS degree. Being older and wiser, I realized that the ceremony meant a lot to my mother (who would never verbalize it, just always counsel me to do what I thought was best). I don't remember much of it but do remember the greatest feeling a person can have - knowing one's parent was proud of what you had accomplished. If you don't care about a beading ceremony ask yourself if anyone else may. If the answer is no, then no ceremony. If the answer is yes, you have a decision to make.(This message has been edited by acco40)

May an unregistered youth or adult wear the uniform? No. Can an unregistered youth or adult wear the uniform? Yes. It never ceases to amaze me that folks ask questions, the correct answer is given and then others chime it that they would ignore it. My sons have "aged" out of the youth program - they are 18 and 20. Both have earned the Eagle rank. Both worked at a Scout camp this summer. I told them that if they expect to wear their uniform, they better register. They did. A uniform should convey the following: rank (if youth), position (youth or adult), council, OA membership, etc. No "false advertising" should be encouraged. I understand that that many would like to do things that are not "allowed" but that "making ethical choices" should kick in at some point. At an ECOH, the emphasis should be on the Eagle Scout, not the speakers.(This message has been edited by acco40)

One of the perks of being male is that we never have to grow up! The only drawback is our toys get more expensive. Look at the mandatory makeup of a National Jamboree troop. They require a 18-21 year old SA. In actuality, these are rare, but not unheard of, positions in typical troops. Scoutmasters and troop committe members are usually composed of parents of Scouting aged boys so not too many 19 year olds in that group. The only thing I would worry about is that from a youth protection perspective, you are an adult in a troop. That doesn't exclude you from games but the "rules" are different and your goals are different. As long as the adults realize your position as well as yourself, everything should be fine.

if the boy in question is of Scouting age, I believe he will be covered by the BSA insurance policy.

I used "contracts" (I called them position expectations) but I did not require signatures. What I did require was for a Scout to get parental permission to seek a POR. The method to my madness was not to convey information to the Scout (I did that by my interaction with them) but to convey information to their parent(s) who it is not my job to train. Most of my conflicts came from parents, not the boys. I know some have a "school before scouting" mentality but it shouldn't be either/or. If a Scout has a full week to prepare for a test on Friday and a full week to "get his patrol ready" for an outing on Friday and screws off for six days, I didn't give them a free pass so to speak if they used the "I had a test" excuse for being unprepared. A patrol leader's primary responsibility is just that - to lead his patrol. How he leads doesn't matter as long as he does. If he organizes and instructor to teach a skill or he does hit himself - doesn't matter. There are many styles and ways to lead and yes, that is why introducing leadership training to the boys is not a bad idea.

Let me try to clarify a few misconceptions. First JFL49 - Just to be perfectly clear, the purpose of IOLS is to teach a leader the skills needed to help Scouts attain the ranks up through First Class. The syllabus is geared to the each outdoor skill listing in the Scout Handbook. IOLS is not designed to teach a leader how to camp, per se. IOLS - Welcome to Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills training. This hands-on program gives adult leaders the practical outdoor skills they need to lead Scouts in the out-of-doors. IOLS does teach a leader how to camp by closely following the Boy Sccout Handbook and make them proficient in the basic outdoor skills through First Class rank. Maybe we are saying the same thing but the course is not a "how to teach to Scouts the basic skill" but uses the concept that to be comfortable teaching these skills, one needs to know them! Second The course director may certify participants as trained if they demonstrate the skill at hand. For example, a participant can't attend the Woods Tools section but has demonstrated to the director (or designated staff member) proficiency in that skill, the course director may allow the awarding of the "trained" patch (if a SM or SA). This is different from a "one may test out" blanket statement.

I think it is a matter of perspective sometimes. Try this example on for size. Where we live, folks (not just Scouts but the vast majority are) have the opportunity to earn a "medal", recognized by the BSA called the Chief Pontiac Trail medal. To earn the medal, one needs 17 mile I think, write an essay on Chief Pontiac (250 words minimum) and create/draw a map of the hike and keep a journal. If one does all that they earn the "right" to purchase a CPT medal. There are "pins" for summer, winter (slightly shorter) and a canoe hike - if one wants the trifecta. Okay, the boys wanted to do this because its fun and it served as a preparation for a Double H trek. Three adults did the hike and 2 out of the three also did the other requirements. The one that did not said he had no interest in the medal, fair enough. Now, one could assume that the adults that did do the other requirements did so solely to earn the medal. But for myself, I did them because that is what we expected of the boys and I serve as a role model. My oldest son read my essay and was impressed. Keep in mind that for him writing the essay was a Herculean task but the two day trek with 40 lbs on his back was a piece of cake. For me, banging out 300 words on an intersting topic was easy, backpacking 17 miles was a different story. At a COH a few months later, the organization came to present the medals and yes, I was a recepient. I don't think this takes away anything from the boys, I think it makes them feel that they accomplished something the adults did and instead of boring them, inspired them to some extent. Now, how often do I wear that medal? I don't think I've worn it since the night I earned it.

Where else can one learn about pigs, wives, husbands, bible (or Bible) study all in the same thread. markrvp - homosexual couples produce babies all the time. A lesbian hooks up with a gay man, they both grit their teeth, do the deed, shake hands and voil - a baby emerges nine months later. Bonus: those who have a myriad of posts in the thread return and roll their proverbial eyes that "this thread is still going on."