acco40

Let them know, in a firm matter, that as an open organization parents are always welcome as quiet observers. If they would like to actively particpate in committee meetings or during outings they are welcome to register with the BSA for the corresponding position. Once registered, or prior if preferred, have the Scoutmaster or Committee Chair discuss with the parent what role and responsibilities the parent would like to take on. Of course the best action to take is t recruit these folks, not just take on volunteers. The is no bigger headache for a Scoutmaster than a parent, who does not understand the BSA program, registered, trained or not, trying to "help out."(This message has been edited by acco40)

Scouting has ideals. If the BSA did not allow anyone membership that did not meet these ideas it would be a very, very small organization. Look up the definintion of ideals. The Scout Oath has us promise to be morally straight. For some that means not to be gay. For some, not to eat pork. For some, not to work on the sabbath. Heck, religions can't even agree what day of the week the sabbath is for God's sake! By excluding gays (i.e. avowed homosexuals) someone is passing judgment on what is moral. As a private institution that is their right. I also think it is an unwise decision. Ed - let's say like me, you've lived in two different states. One state had a law against capital punishment and another one did. The Scout Law asks us to be obedient, brave, trustworthy and loyal. If I didn't cause a "stink" about the state law with which I disagree (choose to your liking) am I being dishonest? Cowardly? In my interpretation of the Scout Law, Oath and application, nothing prevents one from being a member if one eats pork or is gay. I have not stated to my council or district leadership that yes, I have eaten pork. Am I being dishonest? If anIslamist/Jewish entity took over the BSA and had a secret position paper/memo stating that no members should be allowed that eat pork, I was unaware of that - would you consider that dishonest behavior?

Why do our court systems and now it seems folks in scouting want to equate service to others as punishment? You committed a crime? I sentence you to 500 hours of community service! And then we wonder why we have a difficult time teaching the boys (and many parents) that community service is a good thing.

Eagledad- I disagree. The case wasn't about the Government forcing itself on a private club. It was about determining if that club was a public or private institution. Arguments for both exists. If public - why is the President the honorary figure head? Why does congress appropriate money for Jambo? Why did schools and military bases charter units? Why is the BSA chartered by Congress? What the BSA should not be is a exclusionary camping club.

I'm confused. Are you saying that merit badge approval/disapproval is done at the troop level? "Our advancement coordinator" - troop? district? council? What our district advancement coordinator uses as a criteria for a merit badge counselor is if they are qualified or not. Troops do not make this decision. Scoutmasters select MB counselors for the Scouts however.

Eamonn, getting the SPL/PLC involved is not mutually exclusive to what is stated in the G2SS. I'm not unaware or in disagreement with what is in the G2SS. Yes, the adult leaders should take immediate action to ensure safety. Parents of the Scouts involved should be contacted. However, I feel sometimes the adults are too quick to "remedy" the situation and don't give the youth leadership a chance to deal with it at all. At summer camp one year, the camp ranger was giving hay rides (tractor pulled a hay filled cart) around the five square miles of camp. It was an extracurricular evening activity so to speak. The troop was given the opportunity and all Scouts interested and a few of the adults gathered until the ranger came by. We found that there was barely enough room for the boys if no adults accompanied them - except for the tractor driver. So I, as Scoutmaster, talked to the SPL and he and I agreed that the Scouters would stay in camp so that the maximum number of Scouts who wanted to participate could. Well, an hour or so later they returned and the driver said they were unruly in so many words. They were throwing hay, jumping on and off the wagon, etc. I talked to the SPL and he confirmed what the driver said. I was angry and a little embarrassed by the behavior of the Scouts and so was the SPL. He asked me if he could take care of it. If gave him permission after reviewing it with him. He had the offending Scouts (nobody argued about the who the offenders were - and there were about 5-7 Scouts) stand at attention with him for an extended period of time - close to 10 minutes. Was this corporal punishment? It's arguable but I okayed it. The end result - he gained the respect of the entire youth and I considered the case closed. If I had started an inquisition, called parents, etc. I think the result would have been much different and much less successful. The boys go through stages of development. First, they need to learn how to take care of their own behavior - i.e. be good followers. Once that is mastered, we need to let them experience how to be leaders - i.e. how to take care of the behavior of others. How can they accomplish that if we adults constantly step in to rectify every trouble spot? (This message has been edited by acco40)

If yeh think it's just fine to tell scouts to honor the deity(s) by doing evil, then I'm afraid we have a problem, and I don't reckon I want any kids around you while they're still of an impressionable age. That's also the reason why folks are uncomfortable with their kids around "avowed" homosexual leaders, eh? Just a bad example while they're too young to deal with such things in people that we're tellin' the kids to trust. That's the crux of the problem. As I interpret your communication above, you lump avowed homosexual leaders with "evil." But not pork eaters, masterbaters, those who don't honor the sabbath, uncircumsized males - and the list goes on and on. My beef is that the BSA has made a value judgment on being (not doing) a homosexual and not a myriad of other things that various common religious sects deem "evil." Why?

I still say a jury of ones peers, the youth, not the adults, should take place.

What if associating with adults ceases to be fun? What if keeping patrols and the desire is to be just one big happy troop? What if advancement becomes to much pressure and no longer fun? In the BSA we, as Scouters and have made the promise to deliver the Scouting program should set expectations that the boys should be in uniform (as well as ourselves). Should they drive it into the ground, no. The devil is always in the details but the "fun" litmus test is weak in my eyes.

You mean actually try and run the troop as intended by the BSA? Sacr Bleu!

Some concepts are very difficult to grasp by some. Examples: 1) Homosexuality is a behavior. 2) People are born with original sin. 3) Predestination. 4) Normal is "right." ( Are celibate folks heterosexual or gay? Are infants capable of sinful behavior? Is my destiny preordained? I'm a sinister person, i.e. left handed, so don't tell me normal=right, abnormal=wrong! Again, take my "pork eaters" reference. Many believe that behavior is sinful, yet the BSA makes no attempt to refuse membership to pig eaters who don't follow the Truth. Why? My biggest complaint about how the BSA treats gay folk is that they don't condone "actions", they condone sexuality itself, something I don't feel individuals control. One may control their actions and behavior but not necessarily their feelings and desires. As Jimmy Carter once stated to Playboy, I lusted in my heart, something many of us, gay and straight, can relate to.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous to set expectations for members of a voluntary organization to meet that organizations expectations! While just the other day, my district commissioner actually stated that he expected me, as a unit commissioner to visit the units I "serve." I just don't understand the nerve of some folks.

You can work on requirements at any age. However, you may only earn badges at certain ages. There is a progression based on age/grade but one does not "go back." The only wiggle room that I used, when I was a DL/WDL, was the ambiguity of summer. For example, your son finishes 2nd grade in mid-June and starts 3rd grade in early September. I allowed the boys to work on Bear if they completed their Wolf requirements (as most did) but gave a Scout the option of earning his Wolf if he would like with a deadline of the first day of school. Of course, he could work on Bear without earning the Wolf if he so desired. Now, I've seen vehement arguments on when one becomes a "3rd grader" - right after finishing 2nd grade or on the first day of 3rd grade? - but I let the interpretation that was in the best interest of the Cub Scout stand.(This message has been edited by acco40)

What was the response of the SPL? If I were Scoutmaster, I would ask that the SPL address this issue at the next PLC and give him some info about meddling/worried/irate parents, ideas about how to prevent this from happening, possible punishments, behavior expectations, etc. If the PLC decides that "consequences" are in order, the PL for those Scouts with "consequences" should carry out the message delivery. Turn this into a learning experience.

The Scoutmaster should interface primarily with one youth - the SPL. With no SPL, does the SM always meet with two scouts - the PLs? I would find that awkward.

Why do white suburban kids emulate black urban "culture?" That has been happening for over 40 years. Rebellion sells for some. Adolescence is very awkward age. Both boys and girls are trying to find out where they fit in and heaven forbid they are "different" than their peers. Whether it be Scouts, Goths, marching band, robotics, jocks, cheerleaders, nerds, etc. - most want to be a member of something. I got a big kick at being a Scoutmaster for the national jamboree. Because of the age restrictions (and maturity) the Scouts are the age of what I think Boy Scouts should be - 13 to 18. I remember the SPL was the captain of the high school football team (i.e. "cool"), the ASPL was in marching band, cross country and track teams, we had scholars, jocks, etc. but they were 'stealth' Scouts - you would not know they were Scouts unless you were in their troop. Because there are about seven different troops in the area of medium size or bigger (

Mother Teresa struggled with her faith -a lot! Only those who have never had any faith can claim they never struggled. My wife is RC, I'm not. For our last child, we had genetic counseling - mom to be was 38. I asked my wife, if you were not going to "do anything" - i.e. consider abortion, in response to the tests - which do carry a very slight risk - why do the tests at all? I think (at least publicly) very analytically. She stated that she just wanted to know. My gut feel was that at least publicly, my wife was not allowing herself to say she would consider any alternatives but as Eamonn states, one really never knows until one has had the experience how one would react. The outcome is we had a healthy girl (thank God!). I wonder if there was a "sexual orientation" test for fetuses, what many prospective parents would do. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

For a troop with strong patrols, the SPL's job is easy. For a troop with a weak patrol method, the SPL's job is more difficult. The adults need to "let the boys fail" to some extent if the boys don't want to run their program. One method which I employed, was to form an adult patrol. It kept the helicopter parents occupied (we gave them assignments so they didn't hover over their son) and it served as a role model for what a well functioning patrol should look like (sometimes).

Gay Scout leaders I can live with. It's those damn pork eaters that stick in my craw!

In my opinion, Agnostics believe that the existence of God (or gods, or any diety) is not provable or unprovable. Nothing about their own "sureness" wrt God. With that definition one may be an atheist and an agnostic or a Christian and an agnostic.

Well, to be fair, there is no actual requirement to memorize the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tenderfoot Requirement #7: Repeat from memory and explain in your own words the Scout Oath, Law, motto, and slogan. Are you implying that it is not a requirement for Eagle, for it certainly is for Tenderfoot.

Take my wife .... Please. Is there a knot for that?

Yes, district executive, my mistake. To me "backdating" implied doing something now and indicting that you did it yesterday. I guess I just have skewed interpretation. Thanks.

I think female Cub Scout leaders may wear the tan (i.e. Boy Scout) shirt as well.

I was perusing our councils job opening for a Scout Executive. First, the pay is quite low for a 4 year degree ($32K) but one of the skills they were looking for in the area of "MODE OF OPERATION" was - Be efficient at backdating and planning. Why does that sound strange to me? Do I have a misunderstanding of backdating?