acco40

I've ssen some peculiar selections in our troop as well. For those who rely on the Scoutmaster as a screening process - that's kind of passing the buck. IMO, the SM simply determines which boys are first class, have completed 15 days/nights of BSA camping in the last 2 year, and met the long term camping requirement. If a Scout is elected, completes their ordeal and becomes a member and never does another OA activity again - that's a shame but no real harm done. If a Scout is "questionable" but gets elected, completes their ordeal and becomes an active member in the OA and really shows brotherhood, cheerful service, etc. because of the experience - hoorah and claim success. It is better to let one "slip" in that to exclude on who may benefit IMO. My recommendation to SMs is to have preprinted ballots so the spelling of a Scout's name in not a hindrance (I've seen it happen).(This message has been edited by acco40)

A potential toxic situation is Mom/Dad as den leader, older son as den chief and younger son as Cub Scout. When I was a Webelos Den Leader I had a pair of Boy Scouts (1st Class, 12 yrs old) act as den chief. It worked out real well.

I thought only females of reproductive age could be birthers.

These are facts. Patrols should eat as a unit. The SPL and ASPL are not members of a patrol. Adults Scouters and non-Scouters, are not members of a patrol. Now for opinions. The way to handle the above is to either invite the adults, SPL and ASPL to eat with various patrols or to have them all eat together as a defacto patrol. In our troop, we instituted the latter. I wanted the adults to cook as a patrol so that they would not over critique how and what the patrols were cooking (when they ate with them they were apt to takeover too much of the cooking duties) and it allowed me, the Scoutmaster to spend some much needed time with the SPL and ASLP to review, mentor, etc. Also, it was generally known that the adults put more emphasis on what was cooked and how it tasted and less on just what was easiest to cook. I wanted the adults to showcase what the boys could do if they were motivated. Also as a perk, I usually exempted the SPL and ASPL from cooking or cleaning up (exept for their personal utensils) afterwards. My expectations were that they concentrated their efforts on other more important things (my expectations for them were high). For us, it worked out real well although I still had some father-son bonds I had to de-emphasize. They are strongly discouraged from hanging around the patrols - especially their former patrol - for any significant length of time so they don't distract from the PL's authority to run his patrol. Exactly! It's hard to get the troops to listen to the lieutenant when the general is right next to him!(This message has been edited by acco40)

The pack my boys and I were in during their cub years was chartered by a catholic church which we were members. Also, at that time, about 15 years ago, our BSA council utilized the local county police to perform a background check on each volunteer who submitted an appolication (it was known up front that by submitting to the application the applicant was agreeing to the background check). Our church wanted to do the same for all parents (Scouters and non-scouters alike). I had no issue but the Scots part of me wanted to figure out a way that these organizations (BSA and my church) could leverage off what each had done and not pay for background checks by the same orgainization for the same folks. Alas, they had not interest in cooperating with each other. Sounds like our federal and state government at work?

. . . the hard-headed military-minded leaders fired back saying,"Well whats the difference between hunting and fishing?" Not much some believe. Those same "some" are trying to make fishing verboten just like hunting in the BSA. A friend of mine in his early 60's was a boy scout (BSA flavor) in Korea in the early 60's. He said for his camping trips - they were mostly patrol type outings (Kudu would approve) but always had at least on adult - a non-scouter who just so happened to accompany the boys with his M-16. For rations the boys would carry only a couple of eggs and some flour. When meal time came around, they would capture "Korean" frogs (not like anything we have in the states he told me), hold them by the back legs and whack them against a tree. Their legs would rip out of their bodies and it was a simple task to peel back the leg skin and then fry them up in a simple egg/flour batter. Delicious! I don't think the above would go over well in today's society. What is the purpose of your survival training? Caught behind enemy lines? Assume one gets lost on a campout? I'd say skip the "hunting" and concentrate on recognizing your surroundings (fluid sources, plant recognition, etc.) and how to protect against exposure, etc.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Keep in mind that most Scoutmasters are also parents but most parents are not Scoutmasters (I'm biased). What makes me discouraged is that for a month minimum, the SPL and myself work to get the troop (Scouts) ready for a winter outing, go on the outing and then a parent who has not attended any preparation meetings, does not camp with us, etc. makes a decision that it is too cold and comes and picks up their son. To me, the parent is communicating that they don't trust my judgment. Second, I really try to follow the patrol method and every scout has an important role to play. The scout's patrol just lost that important role or putting it another way, the parent had no regard for the other boys in the patrol. I had one parent, an SA, tell me flat out he wouldn't camp out in the cold but that was just a preference and his son did. The SA would usually come visit during the day (and not to "check up") and usually lifted the spirits of the boys. One year, my son (a practical joker) convinced him to load up his convertible and drive the boys around with the top down (it was 18F). He took them up on it and they had a blast. Safety should be our #1 concern but also don't forget the boys get a sense of accomplishment when doing something like winter camping. My litmus test depends on snow and temperature. Many times, the temperatures are in the single digits with no snow. If that's the low, okay I won't cancel. But if the highs don't get in to at least above 20F, I noticed that too much equipment breaks - fiberglass tent poles usually.

Right or wrong, BSA youth protection training states that we don't "use good judgment" to decide if we should report to the SE or not - we should report it and let the judgment fall with the SE and others. Now, if you search this forum you'll find a thread, many pages long, that discussed in minutia the "parent or guardian" issue. Exactly what constitutes a "guardian" was the issue discussed. Was it in the legal sense? Can a parent simply write a note or give a verbal to another adult that they have permission to be the Scout's guardian for this outing? I would approach the Scoutmaster is a non-accusaatory manor and ask him (or her) to explain to you the YPT rules and use that opportunity to educate yourself and possibly have more light shone on the subject. Then, I would make a decision of what to do.

We need to start re-evaluating some basic premises and not get caught up in red/blue, conservative/liberal, democrat/republican rhetoric. Why should students with good grades get scholarships? Why should students with little money get grants? We fret about the government borrowing money yet our tax structure encourages individuals to go into debt to by a house? Why? Why are there tax advantages to going into debt to buy a house but not a car? Should our tax structure strive to "level out" personal income? Should our laws pick winners and losers by giving tax breaks to certain items and not others? In my state, Michigan, I can deduct tuition payments for my children if they go to colleges/universities that have not raised tuition higher than some state imposed level. Most schools do not meet that criteria. Should colleges and universities be subsidized by the public at all? And if so, what type of governmental regulation, if any, should exist? For example, the University of Michigan, a very fine public school, has very selective admission (most who apply do not get in), has an endowment of around $6,600,000,000 (second largest of all public schools) and receives public/taxpayer dollars. Is that fair? Is it fair to punish them by withholding tax dollars because they are successful fundraisers? Why does the government give poor people money? Isn't that like giving alcohol to drunks, heroin to drug addicts? When did medical care become a right? Why do we spend 50% of our medical resources on the last two weeks of life? Sorry to rant, but I think this republican / democrat finger pointing is disgusting and instead a basic discussion on our assumptions of what we expect out of our government is in order. Just don't cut defense spending!!! Then it effect my livelihood!

Many different opinions here. I think it is best to take Wood Badge (two words) fairly quickly after you are trained for your position. Also, you can put on your ticket many different things - but it has to be approved by your advisor. When I took Wood Badge, I was trained in two positions - Webelos Den Leader and Assistant Scoutmaster. My ticket contained items for both positions. Keep in mind that you may be working your ticket for over a year so what Eamonn stated is worth considering.

I'm partial to ALPS. They give a Scot discount too. The have various sizes.

One of the duties of a charter organization is to provide the proper facilities for the unit. It doesn't mean it has to be free, but if it is a parents group, they need to be able to provide a place to meet.

I've used EDGE. I've also let Scouts put up their tents "wrong" and allowed them to experience what happens when it rains or the wind blows. I've also made a game by blind folding a Scout and having his patrol verbally guide him on how to put up a tent while racing a different patrol doing the same thing - inverse French mime method? As a child, I enjoyed school, school work (especially math, history, science) and didn't quite comprehend this aversion to "it's like school work" that many have. I didn't like the "just watch me do it" type of teaching. For physical things like tying a knot, just let me try and let me ask questions when I become stuck worked best. There is a lot of leeway in utilizing EDGE. It is not some grand unified theory nor a panacea for all that ails the BSA. However, it is a method and not a bad one at that.(This message has been edited by acco40)

A PTO or PTA if sponsoring a BSA unit (Pack or Troop for example) should choose the leaders and as such should support the Declaration of Religious Principle when choosing those leaders. If the PTO or PTA is not comfortable with that, they should not charter units. In my neck of the woods, (ah, I'm getting Beavah speak!) PTO and PTAs are not supported by the public schools, the PTO and PTAs support the schools. So legally, while they may not feel it is wise to do so, they may support units. As a parent, taxpayer and BSA member - I agree that public schools should not sponsor BSA units. I also don't think PTOs or PTAs should either - that is not their charter. Public universities/colleges and public schools (high school, middle/junior high schools, etc.) are vastly different communities. In the latter, students are forced to get an education by law and usually, no fee is involved. For higher education, the national trend has been to increase tuition/endowments and lessen support by the public (via taxes & government funding at the state/local levels). If a group of students want to form a LGBT group and be allowed to utilize university resources I don't have a big deal with it. At my alma mater, the Legion of Black Collegians was a fairly prominent group (FYI membership was open to all but was also predominantly black). For a grade school to allow "any" group access is a recipe for disaster. To show favoritism to certain groups is fraught with peril. However, when I was a Bear and Webelos den leader I asked my son's teacher if I could use their room after school (evenings) once a week and also filed the proper paperwork with the principal/school. We also made sure we left the room cleaner than when we entered. The boys were familiar with the room, some basic supplies were handy (chalk boards, paper, pencils, etc.) and the boys seemed to behave better than at someone's house that may have distractions (gameboys, TVs, PSPs, computers, pets, siblings, meddling parents, etc.). That lasted for a few years until the schools (district policy) started charging $25/hr obstensibly for a maintenance staff. That effectively killed my use of the school for the lst half year of Webelos. I didn't like that move but totally understood it and can't really blame them for it.

I think many adults play too much detective and not enough Scoutmaster. When things like this incident happen my approach is to have either myself or the SPL handle it. In this particular situation, I would have handled it. I would simply have the SPL assemble the troop and explain that due to some of the pop (no soda up here) sprouting legs, the cobbler would not be forthcoming. I think it is counter productive to try and find out who may have "done the deed." At summer camp one year we signed up to have a hay ride. It turned out that there wasn't quite enough room for all who wanted to go so I said youth have first choice (Scouts vs. Scouters) and al lthe boys could fit if no adults went. When they returned both the SPL and the adult driving the tractor (horse if you will) informed me of the bad behavior of the Scouts. I was glad when the SPL asked if he could handle the situation - only a small percentage of the Scouts misbehaved. I was glad and of course let him handle it. His "tactics" we much more "harsh" than I would have used but hey, I needed to show support and in the end it earned the SPL much respect. Yes, it was border line hazing but I've seen adults do much worse.

The article states that, "Most PTAs don't know they hold the charter or understand they have to make a committee and select Scout leaders under Boy Scout standards, said Jackson. In one case, a PTA had no idea it held a bank account for Scouting business, which could have led them to file incorrect taxes, she said. Jackson said the situation put PTAs at increased liability if an accident or an ethical incident with a Scout leader were to occur. Less explicit in the state PTA position is the liability regarding potential civil rights violations because the Boy Scouts is grounded in religion and bars gays from membership. Under the charter, sponsors are supposed to approve the moral character of Boy Scout leaders. Mueller said insurance coverage by the Boy Scouts would preclude any financial or legal damage to the sponsoring group. But Jackson said the insurance issue wasn't as simple as the Boy Scouts made it sound. Mueller said the Boy Scouts hadn't done a good job communicating how the liability issue worked.

What constitutes a closed fire?

More anti-French bias from the English?

Again, good teachers utilize what works. Not everything is a one size fits all. I don't do well with demos. I'm not visual. I like to read instructions, not see someone else do something. Others are quite different. Around here, the teaching community uses the term "Chicago math." It is a method that came out of the University of Chicago aand nationalized by McGraw-Hill. It is a controversial method. One of the methods it uses is the spacing that Beavah mentions (#1). Basically, the curriculum would introduce a concept probably way before the vast majority was able to understand it, re-introduce that concept 4 to 6 months later and again in another 4 to 6 months sometimes spanning up to three grade levels. While this was good for some, for others it created a great deal of stress. For Scouts, I've heard the "well he hasn't really mastered a skill if he has just done it once" argument and while I agree that the skill might not have been "mastered", in my view the requirement has been met (i.e. tie a bow line). Is it helpful to reintroduce that concept again? Yes! Hey, Johnny, go help those Tenderfoots learn how to tie a bow line.

My son's father died when he was very young. Are you worried about statutory rape offense? When my two sons were about the ages of about 1.5 and 3 my wife called me at work extremely distressed and almost hysterical. Son #1 hit son #2! She had no brothers and her sister was over five years younger so no physical violence there. I'm not dimininshing what happened to your son, although I don't know exactly what happened, "a beating" means many different things to many different folks. My response to my wife was "why are you calling me, that's what boys/brothers do." She was aghast that a family member would hit another family member. I've worn the Scoutmaster hat and seen a larger (not necessarily older) kid physically challenge a smaller Scout. The larger scout had his father present. The smaller Scout did not. The smaller scout was the oldest child and was used to getting his way. What he could get away with at home he was not able to get away with at camp. However, the larger scout acted inappropriately too. I worked closely with one of my SAs and we got through the weekend with no deaths. I had Scoutmaster conferences with both Scouts (separately). Before departure, I sat down with the dads of each scout (separately), and gave them my take on what happened. Neither scout was without fault but each parent view their son as 100% innocent and the other scout as the antagonist. C'est la vie for a Scoutmaster.

A good teacher, like a good coach, will have many teaching methods at their disposal and attempt to customize the method that works best for the student. Now in a class room environment (meaning multiple students simultaneously, not necessarily in a class room) - using the EDGE method is fine. Reminds me of my Calculus teacher in college. He got our attention when he stated that math is like sex, you don't learn it by observing, you learn by doing. (He demonstrated part of the Training EDGE!). You know experts who object to Explain, Demonstrate, Guide and Enable or who think it is useless? http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/26-242.pdf(This message has been edited by acco40)

That's okay, I'll change my mind tomorrow as more data comes in. As my dad used to say ... The preacher was up at the pulpit addressing his flock and stated quite vociferously - "I've got some good news and some bad news. "Tell us the good news!", his flock demanded. "Jesus is coming down from the heavens this week!", exclaimed the preacher. The (Christian) congregation started crying tears of joy, high fived each other and generally whooped it up in celebration for almost a complete hour. Finally, after they calmed down somewhat, a lone voice called out, "What's the bad news?" "He's pissed!", said the preacher.

The World Crest The World Crest is a Scout emblem that has been worn by an estimated 250 million Scouts since the Scouting movement was founded in 1919. It is still worn by 28 million Scouts in 216 countries and territories and is one of the world's best-known symbols. Scouts and members of the public often ask how the emblem originated. Lord Baden-Powell himself gave the answer: "Our badge we took from the 'North Point' used on maps for orienteering." Lady Baden-Powell said later, "It shows the true way to go." The emblem's symbolism helps to remind Scouts to be as true and reliable as a compass in keeping to their Scouting ideals and showing others the way. The crest is designed with a center motif encircled by a rope tied with a reef or square knot, which symbolizes the unity and brotherhood of the movement throughout the world. Even as one cannot undo a reef knot no matter how hard one pulls on it, so, as it expands, the movement remains united. The three tips of the center fleur-de-lis represent the three points of the Scout Promise. In some countries, the two decorative five-pointed stars stand for truth and knowledge. The crest is white on a royal purple background. These colors are symbolic as well. In heraldry, white represents purity and royal purple denotes leadership and help given to other people. The World Crest is an emblem of the World Organization of the Scout Movement and is authorized for wear on the uniform of all member associations as a symbol of membership in a world brotherhood. It is authorized by the Boy Scouts of America to be worn by all adult and youth members as a permanent patch centered horizontally over the left pocket and vertically between the left shoulder seam and the top of the pocket. The BSA donates a small portion of the proceeds from each patch sold to the World Scout Foundation to assist with the development of Scouting's emerging nations.

1 per 50 = one Scouter if at least one Scout is nominated for troops with under 49 Scouts, two Scouters if at least one Scout is nominated for troop with 50 - 99 Scouts, etc. So, if your troop has 51 Scouts, you can nominate two Scouters if you have a "successful" electtion for youth.

So, for all you moral relativists out there, do you think any sort of "morals" have a place in in scouting? Yes. Do you have any sort of moral compass? Yes, the Boy Scout Oath (or Promise) and Law. Now I have issues if someone tries to tell me that "clean" means we should not admit homosexuals, that "reverent" means we must go to church on Sunday, that "thrifty" means we should stop supporting social services, etc. What do you consider sexually moral? I think that what is important between two (or three) consenting adults is that they have somewhat similar thoughts about what they are doing. I believe it is wrong to lie or make promises one has no real desire to keep to persuade others to do "something" sexual. Like all things, moderation is probably best. (This message has been edited by acco40)