acco40

From what I know, I believe the following: 1) You can't be a Christian if you don't believe in Christ 2) You can be a Christian and behave in a very unchristian like manner. 3) You can't be a Lutheran if you don't drink coffee.

Allow me to ramble a bit here. I didn't sign up my oldest son to Tiger Cubs - back then it was more of a Pack auxiliary group and waited until he was in 2nd grade for Wolf. First Pinewood derby I asked him to make a decision - do you want to go for speed or looks? I told him they awarded trophies for each. Well, he wanted a cool looking car. So, I gave him some ideas and we decided to build a tank - complete with turret and gun. (My employer's primary product at the time). All went well until the day of the race when I found out that our Pack, unlike the Pack in my youth, did not award anything based on looks. Well dad looked pretty stupid that year. Fast forward to the next year. Number two son is a Tiger, #1 a Bear. I did some research and helped them optimize for speed. Tiger won first in his den, #1 son came in second in his den. Tiger son, who raced first, proceeded to break his car playing with it so was not involved in overall Pack championship. Son didn't care, dad (me) cared too much. Found out son #1's den leader was the keeper of the track, was an automotive engineer and essentially got to have trials in his basement. An unfair advantage, well he did volunteer and I was grateful. Next year, #2 son wanted to win again and thought it would be easy so did not put much effort in. #1 son, wanted to win and put in a lot of effort. #2 son got beat soundly, #1 son barely lost again to his nemesis. Lessons learned by each. Next year, #2 put in effort, won again. #1 son worked his butt off and voil, finally won! My lesson, I asked that an "open" division be set up (i.e. give a chance for dads to race cars they built so they would not be overbearing to their son's effort) and I smoked "track keeper dad!" I noticed that in this day and age where "we are all winners" and even in sports, score is not kept, etc. that when Tiger and Wolf Scouts see that only one car is the fastest and yes, one car is the slowest that they learn a tough life lesson. Yes, even some dads ignored the rules and instructions about weight, wheelbase width and some cars got disqualified or didn't even fit on the track. Life lessons abound! Try to turn your experience into a positive, which it sounds like you are. When your son is deciding on an Eagle project, you'll get feelings of Dj Vu!

Oak Tree, the "To Whom it may concern" thread - where is it? Under SCOUTER Announcement? Open Discussion? New to the forum? Scouting the Web?

Noted and relayed.

From everyone's favorite conservative newspaper Bush torture dead-enders getting desperate By Adam Serwer The Bush torture dead-enders are now flailing badly as their case that torture led to Bin Laden becomes increasingly tenuous. Case in point: Former Bush attorney general Michael Mukasey has now responded to Senator John McCains emotional demand that he stop claiming that Bin Ladens killing vindicates torture: Senator McCain described as false my statement that Khalid Sheik Mohammed broke under harsh interrogation that included waterboarding, and disclosed a torrent of information that included the nickname of Osama bin Ladens courier. He strongly implied in the remainder of his column in the Washington Post that this harsh interrogation was not only useless but also illegal. He is simply incorrect on all three counts. KSM disclosed the nickname al Kuwaiti along with a wealth of other information, some of which was used to stop terror plots then in progress. He did so after refusing to answer questions and, when asked if further plots were afoot, said that his interrogators would eventually find out. Another detainee, captured in Iraq, disclosed that al Kuwaiti was a trusted operative of KSMs successor, abu Faraj al-Libbi. When al-Libbi went so far as to deny even knowing the man, his importance became obvious. Effectiveness aside, torture wouldnt be morally justified even if it worked. Even so, the pro-torture case hangs on a very thin reed. The idea is that the second detainee indentified above by Mukasey Hassan Ghul identified while in CIA custoday that al Kuwaiti was Bin Ladens courier. But little is known about Ghuls actual treatment, and both Khalid Sheik Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libbi lied about al-Kuwaitis importance despite the fact that KSM was waterboarded. In fact, according to the Associated Press, KSM gave up this key intelligence many months later under standard interrogation. Mukasey is basically fudging by arguing that waterboarding KSM was vindicated by his disclosure of information not gleaned through waterboarding. The details of Ghuls treatment are unclear, so we dont know if he was tortured. But we do know he wasnt subject to waterboarding, which Mukasey is so interested in defending only three detainees are known to have been waterboarded, and he wasnt one of them. Thats why the New York Times concluded that the harsh techniques played a small role at most in identifying Bin Ladens trusted courier and exposing his hide-out. Whats more, CIA chief Leon Panetta and the Chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein who is currently investigating the interrogations of high value detainees have both said that while information gleaned from CIA interrogations helped lead to bin Laden, torture did not. Thats the key claim McCain made yesterday, and the one Mukasey fails to really address here. McCain said that the best intelligence gained from a CIA detainee information describing Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaitis real role in Al-Qaeda and his true relationship to Osama bin Laden was obtained through standard, non-coercive means, not through any enhanced interrogation technique. Note the distinction. McCain is not saying CIA interrogations played no role. Hes saying torture didnt play a role. And in making this claim, hes backed up by the head of the CIA, who helped oversee the successful manhunt for the worlds most wanted terrorist. We may have to wait for Feinsteins investigation to conclude before closing this case once and for all. But for now, the evidence strongly suggests McCain is right, and Mukasey and the Bush torture dead enders are wrong.

Our council camp puts on a Pathfinder (I and II) program each year. On paper, it works well but keep this in mind. 1) The Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program so keep them informed on what you teach but make sure you or your staff do not sign-off on any requirements. The best way to do that is to heavily recruit troop leaders, SMs and SAs to help with putting on the program. 2) Don't try to do too much. 3) Try your darndest to keep it fun! 4) Disregard all merit badge work. 5) April is kind of late to get started in my view. This may give you some good ideas: http://www.troop123.org/pdf/summercamp07/llsr07pathfinder.pdf(This message has been edited by acco40)

The devil is always in the details. We have the capacity to turn all of Afghanistan to glass, devoiding the whole country of humanity - thus wiping out all "terrorists" who may be there. I'd say 99.99% of Americans feel that would be a bad idea (you can count me as part of that group). So, all out war is not the option, a limited war is the way to go. So, how limited? Thus the debate.

Any symbol represents what the beholder sees in it. The rainbow sympbol's original intent was to represent diversity (multi-colors, get it?), inclusiveness, hope and yearning (hey Noah, see the rainbow? The rain has stopped! - God). It was adopted by the those wishing to advertise gay pride. IMO, the same folks who complain that groups "hijack" their words (i.e. Fred Flintstone had a gay old time long ago) are the same ones who are the ones who help that happen by avoiding the use.

Not torture exactly, but I've read academic dissertations aboutthe effects of bombing civilian populations - i.e. London, Dresden, etc. The desired effect - trying to defeat the will of the people to fight - was not achieved. Surprisingly to some (not me) - the effect was just the opposite. It stiffened the resolve of those being bombed to resist. Think of it this way. What was your thoughts on muslim/Islamic radicals before 9/11? After 9/11? Did you move much closer to "those guys have a legitimate point" or "okay, I'm get the point, I'll stop supporting Israel and renounce my 'Western' ways"? I bet it was more like - "let's kill the bastards, each and every one no matter what it takes."

Scoutmaster approval is not required to attend. Assume you don't ask your unit to finance your attendance. i say go for it.

Any alumni from the University of Hawaii that care to comment? Basketball team - Rainbow Warriors Baseball team - Rainbows Football team - Warriors A rose by any other name ...

Fire bombing Dresden, to prevent attacks from Hummel figurines or cuckoo clocks, or nuking Nagasaki from 20,000 ft is very impersonal. Waterboarding a suspected terrorist gets ones hands dirty. Alls fair in love and war but we are not nuking Afghanistan or Pakistan. We run into this problem when we moderate our response in a war - Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, etc. I don't advocating total all-out war but this is a messy business - trying to defend and look out for our intests by projecting force.

Iwo Jima - 4907 Marines, 934 Sailors Okinawa - 2897 Marines, 3809 Sailors Palau Islands - 1171 Marines, 185 Sailors Marianas - 3995 Marines, 513 Sailors Marshall Islands - 401 Marines, 187 Sailors Tarawa - 950 Marines, 724 Sailors Guadalcanal - 988 Marines, 1176 Sailors So, fearing another great loss of American life, Truman decided to utilize the atomic bomb.

A common theme on this forum is Scouter's debating what is meant by a BSA policy and then when some have issues with it, the policy is labelled as only a "guideline" or other rationalization occurs - i.e. do what's best for the Scout, etc. It is occuring with the "God" issue. BSA policy is clear - what is up to us as Scouters is to determine how we will respond to the policy. Let's don't get wrapped around the axle debating the policy itself.

Not so hypothetical a situation: The CIA had found bin Laden's wife and children in the compound and not Osama himself? Is it justified to take one of bin Laden's children, point a gun to their head and demand information on bin Laden's whereabouts from his wife - regardless if the child was really going to be shot or not? Allen West - any relation to Batman? Beavah - wasn't their a "Dirty Harry" movie along the same vein? A doctor, who hopefully subscribes to the hippocratic oath (first, do no harm) being utilized to check on the health of torture victims? (This message has been edited by acco40)

One who inflicts terror in others? The systematic use of terror to coerce. So tell me why someone who waterboards someone else is not a terrorist?

Merlyn, I agree with you but our 6 year old athiest is about as rare as our 6 year old homosexual. In pratical terms, most kids follow their parents lead wrt religious upbringing at a young age, may or may not like it from the ages of 2 - 11. Start to rebel or sink deeply into it from the ages of 12 - 18. May become ambivalent from the ages of 19 - 30 and then when they have children of their own make decisions for the next generation - atheism, catholicism, hinduism, etc. The BSA has a stance on duty to God & the declaration of religous principle. Don't rock the boat and no witch hunts occur. As a Scoutmaster and den leader, I didn't feel it was my job to weed out the infidels.

Don't want to get into the "is Wood Badge worth it" type discussion but making the assumption that "training is good" I think the real question is when is the best time to take Wood Badge? I don't believe Wood Badge is one of those mysterious, need plenty of experience before you take it, type courses. It is simply a supplemental training course. I say take it immediately after one is trained in their position. That usually means, for most, they've served in that position for at least one year. Then, IMO, sign up for Wood Badge. The only draw back to this approach, is that many times, Wood Badge can rekindle the fire that sometimes starts to smolder after about 5 - 7 years or so of volunteering. In my case, I had been a Cub Scout leader (Tiger Partner, Den Leader (Wolf, Bear) and had finished one year of being a Webelos Den Leader (younger son) and Assistant Scoutmaster (older son) when I took Wood Badge. It worked well for me. So maybe in one's second or third year but no, don't wait 10 years!(This message has been edited by acco40)

Personally for me, I have not lost any money due to tribal bartering in Botswana.

The fact that I can debate these issues on-line with all the boneheads that don't agree with me (written with tongue firmly in cheek) without arrests being made, bombings and lynchings shows that yes, we do have a chance. I think the USA has had a more successful history in integrating immigrant populations than Europe. Therefore, I think Europe will become more threatened with "in-home" terrorist cells than the USA. We however, will bare the brunt of scorn for being the superpower and figurehead of the the "west" or "infidels." I also think the recent uprisings in various Arab and predominantly muslim countries bodes short term instability but possibly long term benefits for our interests. Something about having a job, family, wife & kids seems to lessen the need for stridency on all fronts.

Saturday, 5/7/2011 at 6:53:49 PM EST?

The interstate highway system was created during the Eisenhower administrations to alleviate the concern of the armed forces that logistically, we could not move our defense resources around in an economical and timely fashion. The public benefit was that I could travel longer distances more quickly and in some cases more safely. The public drawback was that travelling the interstates in Georgia, Pennsylvania. Michigan, Ohio, Kansas, Arizona or almost anywhere has the same sterile, repetitive scenery regardless of location. Local "flavor" was all but lost (great for Kansas mind you, bad for anywhere else).(This message has been edited by acco40)

Look no further than the BSA. What qualifications are needed to be a professional Scouter? A college degree. It can be in English, Business, Engineering, Medicine or pencil shavings - doesn't matter. But earning a degree of some sort is required.

Ufortunately, the bar for having a child is quite low. The bar for raising a child is quite high. All those who have chosen to adopt didn't necessarily chose not to have a child "biologically."

Scoutfish - do I detect a double standard with respect to the religious / reverent requirements for this case (the they're just kids argument) to the bile that seems to be emitted from so many to boys who don't measure up the Eagle Scout?