acco40

For Boy Scouts we (Scouters) signed up to deliver the program by using the eight methods. Why not honor our commitment? My only complaint about the uniform is that it seems to change almost every other year!

Shoulder belt loops?

The national council should mandate BSA boxer shorts as part of the field uniform. That way, the boys would actually pull up their pants so I wouldn't have to look at their "non-BSA" boxers. It's funny. Some of the boys are really proud of their accomplishments and wear the uniform with pride. That's why you see OA sashes at troop COHs. That's also why you see some boys (non-OA, 15 year old 2nd Class) who don't particularly like wearing the uniform. Alas, that's also why you see some "Panamanian General" type Scouters push uniforming so hard. For myself, I just like the fact that the only judgment I need to make is which uniform **** , pants and socks I'll pick.

Who is topis?

I've transported my son to various troops to help with OA elections. I've been a Scoutmaster for many troop elections. If the checks and balances are followed, the youth OA "visitor" makes sure he records all the boys up for election, including name, rank, adddress, etc. then records votes. Nothing magical about odd or even voters. If things are not followed (because someone uses "common sense" and decides that this is another BSA "rule" that doesn't need to be followed just because it states something in a guidebook and they like freedom ), well "stuff" happens.

The Armys mission is to fight and win our Nations wars by providing prompt, sustained land dominance across the full range of military operations and spectrum of conflict in support of combatant commanders. This is done by: 1. Executing Title 10 and Title 32 United States Code directives, to include organizing, equipping, and training forces for the conduct of prompt and sustained combat operations on land. 2. Accomplishing missions assigned by the President, Secretary of Defense and combatant commanders, and Transforming for the future. Part of the missions are to provide support to civil authorities in order to provide the protection and support needed to sustain the United State's national interest and stability. So civilians like President Obama, can pretty much say "go do this .... to support our national interest."

Mr. Boyce, I understand, I think, your position on homosexuality but your "psychological disorder" and "consensus" arguments are flawed. Psychological disorders are nothing more than what a consensus of psychologists say they are. I don't state that to demean psychologists, not that there's anything wrong with being a psychologist, but the determination of what is "normal" is actually pretty heady stuff. A SM telling the scouts that he has the habit of kissing his wife before he leaves for work is different from that same SM telling scouts he kisses his husband. Why? A Scoutmaster should leave his political views, sexual mores, etc. at "home" so to speak when dealing with the Scouts. As a Scoutmaster, I admit I try to have the boys keep an open mind about stuff. At their age, they either mimic their parents or try to please (or some - the exact opposite). For example, I'll bet if I ask 100 Scouts if drugs are good for you 99 would say no. So then I ask them about aspirin (well maybe Tylenol for them), insulin, vaccines, etc. Well, some drugs are good for you they would say, like insulin. So, do you want some right now I might ask. Finally, I get my point across. Some drugs, when used properly are a great benefit. Others, very little if any benefit and others, harmful, possibly illegal and some fatal. Critical thinking usually isn't their strong suit at this age.

Folks, please do not describe those that strive to follow proper uniforming in a demeaning manner. I will wear mine with pride, because it is insane not to. So, by choosing to follow proper uniforming I'm regarded as insane? The scout uniform is bought and worn by volunteers. So is the military and has been for close to 40 years. In closing, a few thoughts about "uniform police." I have found that uniform zealots, both military and BSA, tend to lose sight of what the uniform is actually designed to achieve. This is a common thread in this forum. Someone asks the "correct" way to do something, someone replies with the correct answer and then they are pilloried for their response. For myself, I would never dream of coming up to a Scouter and telling him that his mentor pin does not belong on his or her uniform. But, if asked, I would state that no, the BSA has stated that mentor pins are for civilian wear. By stating such, why do folk imply that we are "uniform police" or somehow think we feel that uniforming is the most important thing in Scouting. Personally, I think it is just rationalization by folks who know they are doing something they are not supposed to do. Reminds of the joke about the guy who asks a lady if she would ... Well, we've already established that, he says. Now we are just negotiating price. Is it less wrong to steal one cent than to steal millions of dollars? While uniforming is a method, it does not automatically justify blindly following a non-binding administrative pamphlet "just because it says so and that's that." It certainly does not imply not following it. Proper uniforming does not happen by thumping people over the head with the regulation. We are sweating wearing an Eagle Mentor Pin. Who is thumping? Who is sweating? Who is picking nits? The question was asked, a proper reply was given. Nothing more, nothing less. At summer camp, the camp staff asks that the uniform (field) be worn to dinner. Some of the boys grumble about it - some of the adults too. As the Scoutmaster, the SPL or I reminded them of this fact before we headed out. Did we "require" it? No. We signed up to do the flag ceremony in the next few days. I asked the boys to practice (I usually had the younger boys do this to fulfill requirements). As a troop that had chosen to wear a neckerchief, I asked the flag ceremony team to be properly uniformed. A few more grumbles - I can't find mine some would state. Borrow one or if need be you can use mine, I'd offer. Well, they would quickly find their own after that. It just so happened, the evening before we were scheduled, another troop's team performed the ceremony with their uniform shirts and swim trunks! I didn't say anything but when we got back to our base camp later that evening I asked the boys what they thought of the flag ceremony. They were embararssed for that troop. I asked why and it was because of their appearance they stated. I had no uniform issues the following evening!(This message has been edited by acco40)

During one of my last Webelos den meetings my assistant den leader left to go to my house where all the other parents were having a good time drinking beer and crafting the boys AOL arrows! That was news to me and I held the den meeting by my lonesome (only adult) as I help them prepare for a skit for the B&G / Crossover banquet. Two-deep leadership is not required for den meetings per the BSA.

When my oldest son joined Boy Scouts the Scoutmaster, a good one, was a great influence on him. He (the SM) was very dedicated and IMO, was a good role model for the boys. After he stepped down, I became the Scoutmaster. When my son turned 18, I happened to find out that his former Scoutmaster (not me, the previous one) is now a "she." She lives out of state so he has not had any contact with her and is not aware. As a male, I can't comprehend what must of gone on in his/her head to make such a change but I know it happens and I don't feel it is wrong in any way, just unfortuante that someone feels they have to go through something like that. Was this person gay at one time? I don't know and don't really care. Seriously, I can't understand how the BSA can claim to be a religious organization but nonsectarian. I agree with Trevorum, the issue, is BSA's claim to be "non-sectarian" while at the same time making specific items of theological dogma as membership requirements. We don't exclude pork eaters. We don't exclude divorced folk. We don't exclude folks who may have onced worked on the Sabbath. Heck, we don't even necessarily agree which day of the week is the Sabbath! Why do we exclude avowed homosexuals? Also, exactly how does the BSA define a homosexual? Is there such a thing as a celibate homosexual? Oak Tree, I'd like to see a reference to the following statement "6. Homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirement in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout Law that a Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not provide a desirable role model for Scouts." Not that I don't believe you, but I know that the BSA likes to keep that view somewhat under wraps. From wiki pedia which is from the internet so it must be true! In reciting the Scout Oath, Scouts promise to be morally straight and to do their duty to God; the Scout Law holds that a Scout is clean and reverent. As early as 1978, the Boy Scouts of America circulated a memorandum among national executive staff stating that they held it was not appropriate for homosexuals to hold leadership positions in BSA. Similarly, since at least 1985, the BSA has interpreted the Scout Oath and Law as being incompatible with agnosticism and atheism. In both instances, the organization asserted that it was not a new policy to oppose and disfavor atheism, agnosticism and homosexuality; and, in support of that, to deny membership to atheists and agnostics, and to deny leadership roles to and occasionally expel "avowed" homosexual persons rather, the BSA argued it was just enforcing long-held policies which had never been published or publicly challenged. emphasis is mine BSA Religious Principles (Reprinted from the 1992 edition of BSA's Advancement Guidelines: Council and District Functions.) The Boy Scouts of America has a definite position on religious principles. The following interpretative statement may help clarify this position. The Boy Scouts of America: Does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion. Does not require membership in a religious organization or association for enrollment in the movement but does prefer, and strongly encourages, membership and participation in the religious programs and activities of a church, synagogue, or other religious association. Respects the convictions of those who exercise their constitutional freedom to practice religion as individuals without formal membership in organized religious organizations. In a few cases, there are those who, by conviction, do not feel it necessary to formally belong to an organized form of religion and seek to practice religion in accordance with their own personal convictions. Every effort should be made to counsel with the boy and his parents to determine the true story of the religious convictions and practices as related to advancement in Scouting. Religious organizations have commended the Boy Scouts of America for encouraging youth to participate in organized religious activities. However, these same organizations reject any form of compulsion to enforce conformity to establish religious practices. If a boy says he is a member of a religious body, the standards by which he should be evaluated are those of that group. This is why an advancement committee usually requests a reference from his religious leader to indicate whether he has lived up to their expectations. Throughout life, Scouts are associated with people of different faiths. Scouts believe in religious freedom, respecting others whose religion may differ from theirs. Scouting believes in the right of all to worship God in their own way. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Just curious to those who know it is not supposed to go on the uniform but wear it anyway, what is your "litmus test" in deciding what regulation to follow and which was to ignore? I wear mine right next to to my Eagle "dad" pins - on my suit coat.

I have confidence in my abilities as a Scout leader that the boys will be in a safe environment and as such, would welcome a new scout to the troop. I also have confidence in my abilities as a Scoutmaster that if I sat down one on one with a scout (within eyesight of others), I could determine if the scout really wanted to be in scouts, was being pushed by a parent or two or what. I've had scouts do dangerous things with fire, knives, axes, sticks, stones - you name it. Sometimes intentional, most times not. It happens. Yes, our duty is to minimize the risks but that has to be balanced with allowing the boys to experience scouting. I had a scout who wanted to join the troop who had a disability (Asperger's syndrome). I heard the same crap from parents I hear way to often - this kid would be a threat to my son, you're putting the other boys in danger if you allow this kid to join the troop, if you pair this kid with my kid at summer camp we are going to quit, etc. Frankly, the parents who are the most "concerned" with their kids safety are the ones who never show up on outings or volunteer for much. That is what my experience tells me. Truth be told, every other scout is a potential danger to your son!

I honestly can't believe some of these responses. First - yes, the troop has an obligation to share with the new troop the Scouts advancement records. The Boy Scout Handbook is not an official advancement record. Neither is TroopMaster necessarily but it is a great assist to a new troop. Second, what is better for the boy - to remain in Scouting or not? If we honestly feel it is better for the boy to not be in Scouts, why on Earth are we posting on this web site? Third, have the boys former Scoutmaster transfer the advancement records over to the new troop and simply state that if they want to discuss the Scout in any way feel free to call. That's it. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Czy harcerzy pełnego zrozumienia Angielski? Jeśli nie, a może rozmawiać z matek jest konieczne. Jeżeli te harcerzy zrozumieć angielski, nie jest to język publikacji, ale zakłcenia wydania. I had two Polish Scouts (in that organization, both boys were US citizens) and that was educational.

First, I'd have a sit down with the Scout. Not an interrogation, not a test, but a simple chat on what he expects to get out of Scouting, why he choose "our" troop, why he left "his" troop, etc. I'd keep most of the questions on my end open ended. The fact that he wants to remain in Scouting is a good sign. I may talk to his parents about the same topics but really wouldn't care as much about their input. I would then contact the Scoutmaster and simply ask for the Scouts advancement records stating that the Scout had an interest in transferring troops. I leave an opening for the Scoutmaster to comment but would not try to otherwise get any other information from him. In other words, I'd give the kid a clean slate and see what happens. We do that with Webelos every year, why not other Scouts?

Packsaddle, I think more correctly, the BSA claims to be a private organization and as such can make membership criteria such as religious beliefs and sexual identity criteria for membership. Also in the news, the Obama administration, or more correctly, President Obama himself, has determined that the Defense of Marriage Act the 1996 law that bars federal recognition of same-sex marriages is unconstitutional, and has directed the Justice Department to stop defending the law in court, the administration said Wednesday.

Den leaders are volunteers. It is the choice of the vast majority to be the den leader for their son. As volunteers, their preference usually holds and that is what most packs do. It makes more sense to stay put based solely on expertise of the leader. Think of it this way. Does the second grade teacher plan on teaching third grade the next year and fourth grade the year afterwards?

The human brain is a complex organ (duh!) and is also not completely developed until the age of 25 or so. Growing up, a teen a few years younger than me shot and killed his mother because she did not allow him to use the family car one night. I believe he was 16 at the time. I think some of the marketing of the BSA propagates the myth that somehow Eagle Scouts are "above" average folk. Both of my sons have earned Eagle and are great kids but I don't kid myself into believing they somehow are morally superior or special. Do "good" kids excel at the BSA program and attain the rank of Eagle at a higher rate than those that are not? Probably. So does the program make the boy or the boy make the program? Probably a little of both. Maybe the scouting program helped these kids by preventing them from other heinous crimes? Who knows?

Reminds me of the following . . . Two country boys are driving along an old dirt road after a day of fishing and drinking. Each has an open beer bottle with several empties thrown in the bed of their pickup. Suddenly the driver sees a police car in his rearview mirror. Hey Earl, he tells his passenger, quickly finish your beer and peel the label off the bottle and stick it to your forehead! Earl gives him a quizzical look but finally complies. The policeman notices the truck weave erratically and turns on his siren. The good ole boys pull over and the policeman approaches the car. He notices the dozen or so empty bottles, reeking of stale beer, in the bed of the truck. He cautiously approaches the cab and shines his flashlight on the two occupants. Both smell of alcohol and have a half glazed look in their eye and smiles on their faces. He also notices that both have beer bottle labels stuck to their foreheads. Gentleman, the officer inquires, have you been drinking. No sir!, the driver replies. We're on the patch!

Score: seven responses, one correct for a score of 14%. Score given random pick: 33%! A brick displaces its equivalent weight of water when in the boat. A brick displaces the equivalent volume of water when thrown overboard (assumption is the brick does not float). Because a brick will sink, i.e. it is "heavier" than water, it displaces more water in the boat than in the lake so yes, the water level will go down - lower. Thanks to all who participated!

Inquiring parents are best dealt with not from a "rules" perspective but from common sense - no matter how much they lack. Boys at this age are - especially if they are worthy of the OA - seek independence from mommy and daddy. Let them have it. My oldest son went through his Ordeal before me. The next year, he went through brotherhood and me my Ordeal. It brought him much joy and pride that he was one up on his dad & scoutmaster and that was great for me. Parents should have their fears of any hazing allayed (there should not be any) and let them know that it is very important to the Scouts to not have mom or dad present (unless already in the order).

The Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program. As an SA, my first stop would not be to question the Scout or his parents but to have a nonconfrontational sit down with the Scoutmaster and ask him (or her) what his expectations are for that requirement. Again, not if that particular Scout "passed" or not but what are the Scoutmaster's expectations for any Scout to "demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (or Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life." Essentially, your tactic was to call the Scout's father and Scoutmaster and accuse the Scout of providing false information - that's probably not the best approach. Your "psycho" label of the Scout kind of tells what your bias may be on the subject?

John-in-KC - your state in lenient. In southeast Michigan, we call the public school knife policy the "you're going to school in Ohio law." It is a state law that any student with a knife (not necessarily on his person either) on school property is banned for a year from going to public school in the state. This happened to a high school senior who drove his Jeep to school and left his knife in the car on the school parking lot.

My favorite "engineering" question was asked of a friend of mine for his physics "orals" for his masters degree. If you dare, answer with only one word (so as not to give away the answer). I post the correct answer tomorrow. Who are the brave souls who will attempt? A man in a boat on a lake throws a brick overboard. Does the lake level rise, stay the same or lower? Assume no evaporation or precipitation. So again, please answer only: rise, stay the same, or lower. P.S. No, this is not a psychology experiment but a legitimate physics question.

Do you want to be SM on the Jambo trip? Yes it is worth it Wood Badge was not required for 2005, 2010 nor currently for 2014 Jambo Scoutmasters (by the National Council) but it is recommended. Do you like to add bling to your uniform? Yes it is worth it There is much cheaper bling and besides, if this is your intent in taking the course, by taking the course, it may change your intent! Join the good old woodbadge boys club? Yes it is worth it. Clubs are eternal. If you take the course then there is the "but you've never staffed a course" crowd. Staff a course and your not part of the "but you've never been a course director" crowd. In reality, sometimes the "good old boys club" is formed more by those who are not in it than by those who are perceived to be in it. Learn anything that will help me deal with a drug addicted mom who drops her boy off at scouts because he needs a male role model. NOPE One thing that Wood Badge helps to teach, to those who go in with an open mind, is how to communicate and how to manage conflict. Deal with boys chosing sports or band over scouting. NOPE Another topic it teaches is effective coaching and mentoring. These techniques may help a boy in his decision making about Scouts. Dealing with parents hitting and cussing you and your volunteers. NOpe Again, how to manage conflict as well as problem solving and decision making are Wood Badge topics. Dealing with boys chosing world of war craft over the scouting world. Nope Again, coaching and mentoring may come into play here. (This message has been edited by acco40)