InquisitiveScouter

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

An issue totally unespected and out of the blue.  Been in the program since cubs, and other than occasional breaking of something in frustration, never threatening to others.  Something went awry it would seem and his doctors are involved.  It just seems that if we can work with him in some way that does not put others in harms way, or he is proven to be tempered, would Lone Scout be an option.  A lot of "ifs", and not something likely in the books directly.  On the other hand, we have a history of reaching out to troubled youth and giving them a chance if possible.  It just seems a shame to see his efforts to date to be lost.  But, we have to put the others ahead; that is understood.  Thanks for your comments.  Probably one of those untenable situations.

As @mrjohns2 relays, it is entirely up to the council.

Start with the Registrar.  Call and explain the situation.  Ask if there are any Lone Scouts in your council already.  If yes, then they will most likely add this Scout.

If no, ask if the Registrar would support you if you asked for this Scout to be added as a Lone Scout.  Although it is the SE's decision, it is the registrar who will gain the extra workload.  So, if the Registrar is on board, it makes things easier.

If the Registrar declines, then go ahead and call your SE and ask, but expect the answer to be "No".

If "No" then ask the SE if they would support your calling neighboring councils to see if any will accept Lone Scouts.

Keep pushing, courteously, and you will find a way.  

6 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Your guess is as good as mine.  They have a patrol name, but beyond that I am not sure there is anything remotely patrol related.

OK, then you have a camping club, not a Scout Troop.

"The patrol system is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried on. It is the only method." - BP

I would submit this is where you have to start.  

“The formation of the boys into Patrols of from six to eight and training them as separate units each under its own responsible leader is the key to a good Troop." - BP

If you cannot get other leaders to agree to this concept, and to help implement it, then you should leave and find another Troop...one that uses the Patrol Method.

8 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

At some point my kid is going to get fed up and then a new CC will have to be selected. 

What does your son's patrol want to do?  Get another adult, and take them camping, if that's what the Scouts want.  Does not have to be the SM on every trip.

31 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I was made aware on Tuesday our Council isnt doing JTE any more.  That after I had filled out the worksheet. 🙄

@5thGenTexan, you don't need the council...  What level did you get? 

Just order the patches, if you want them, and recognize your Scouts at the level of program they achieved.  We filled out our worksheet, sent it to our FD (we don't have an assigned DE) with a cc to our District Commissioner (we don't have an assigned Commissioner), and ordered our own patches.

Here's a link to Gold:

https://www.scoutshop.org/no-name-provided-656986.html

1 hour ago, ScouterSD said:

Does the insurance company feel that a facility usage or affiliate agreement does not protect the Church?   Sounds 100% opposite to the UMC thinking.

If anything happens on church property, then the church will get dragged into the lawsuit.

"Sue everyone, and let the courts sort it out," says the lawyer corps.  (While the church hemorrhages cash in lawyer fees probably seeks a settlement.)

38 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Teach 'em the CORRECT lyrics....

"" "scuse me, while I kiss this guy....""     = Jimi Hendrix, please call your office......

LOL,

Don't know how they got this, but I remember Scouts singing "Come on Eileen! Oh, I slid on my winks..."

Don't overdo it at first...  Just a tune or two during a lull around the campfire.  Don't make it your show 😜

Make them short...  Don't do 100 bottles of root beer on the wall. 

Don't demand that everyone sing... Youth often don't know the words, so are reluctant to sing.  They have to hear the song many times before they feel comfortable with the words.  Wanna help them?  Print out a few copies and hand them out.  Don't get upset if they wind up in the fire.  In fact, make a game of that.  Print on the bottom of it "Burn Only After Singing!!!" 

Learn Scout Vespers... that's a good one to start with.

Learn America (My Country 'Tis of Thee) or America the Beautiful... 

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

In other non BSA organizations, etc... Resident Camp was contrasted with Day Camp, meaning you stayed for the nights.

Yup!

In a BSA context, I would say the term should apply to overnight camps where you stay in one place the whole time.

49 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

LOL, is the National OA Committee implying that a unit run "resident camp" must comply with NCAP?

They couldn't anyway... NCAP specifically excludes unit camping, and directs it fall under G2SS:

NATIONAL CAMP STANDARDS APPLICABILITY, SA-001

Exclusions. The World Scout Jamboree, National Scout Jamboree, and National Order of the Arrow Conference are mass events subject to additional health and safety requirements specific to those events which are equivalent to or more stringent than the National Camp Standards. Unit activities are subject to the Guide to Safe Scouting.

https://pdscouting.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2022-NCAP-Standards-v2-430-056.pdf

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Q/A: Resident Camping Requirement

 

Q: I have a question about Unit Elections. For the camping requirement of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping does the camping have to be at a BSA owned and operated camp, or can it be a unit long term campout allowed by the council?

A: There has been some confusion over what camping qualifies in meeting the membership requirement for camping. Three factors apply:

Camping must be under the auspices of an approved BSA program.

The decision on what specific camping meets the spirit and intent of the camping requirement rests with the unit leader of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election.

It is preferred that camping requirements be met as part of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election (i.e., troop, crew or ship); however, extenuating circumstances may exist (e.g., in cases where a youth did not have an opportunity to meet the requirement with the unit), that make it appropriate for unit leaders to consider other BSA camping experiences (e.g., a Venturer counting camping nights completed with a troop or camping nights completed while serving as a staff member at a council camp or national high adventure base). In each case, the unit leader must satisfy themselves the spirit and intent of the requirement was met (i.e., it was indeed qualifying outdoor camping).

The term "ship nights" refers to nights during with the individual slept overnight on their ship. The ship need not be underway during that period for the nights to qualify.

This does not say that the resident camp must be at a BSA owned or operated facility. If the national Order of the Arrow committee had wanted to say that, they would have. The language used was very carefully composed. If a unit runs their own long-term resident camp, "under the auspices and standards" of the BSA, it qualifies. The BSA does have very explicit standards for a resident Scout camp, requiring much more than just a week long campout. Your local council camping committee can provide more information on what the current standards are.

Some of the confusion may be caused by an error in a recent printing of the Boy Scout Handbook, which stated the camping had to be at "a local or national council facility", but that is incorrect.

 

https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/resident-camping-requirement

LOL, is the National OA Committee implying that a unit run "resident camp" must comply with NCAP?

Q/A: Resident Camping Requirement

Q: I have a question about Unit Elections. For the camping requirement of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping does the camping have to be at a BSA owned and operated camp, or can it be a unit long term campout allowed by the council?

A: There has been some confusion over what camping qualifies in meeting the membership requirement for camping. Three factors apply:

Camping must be under the auspices of an approved BSA program.

The decision on what specific camping meets the spirit and intent of the camping requirement rests with the unit leader of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election.

It is preferred that camping requirements be met as part of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election (i.e., troop, crew or ship); however, extenuating circumstances may exist (e.g., in cases where a youth did not have an opportunity to meet the requirement with the unit), that make it appropriate for unit leaders to consider other BSA camping experiences (e.g., a Venturer counting camping nights completed with a troop or camping nights completed while serving as a staff member at a council camp or national high adventure base). In each case, the unit leader must satisfy themselves the spirit and intent of the requirement was met (i.e., it was indeed qualifying outdoor camping).

The term "ship nights" refers to nights during with the individual slept overnight on their ship. The ship need not be underway during that period for the nights to qualify.

This does not say that the resident camp must be at a BSA owned or operated facility. If the national Order of the Arrow committee had wanted to say that, they would have. The language used was very carefully composed. If a unit runs their own long-term resident camp, "under the auspices and standards" of the BSA, it qualifies. The BSA does have very explicit standards for a resident Scout camp, requiring much more than just a week long campout. Your local council camping committee can provide more information on what the current standards are.

Some of the confusion may be caused by an error in a recent printing of the Boy Scout Handbook, which stated the camping had to be at "a local or national council facility", but that is incorrect.

https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/resident-camping-requirement

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Your mental gymnastics could come back to bite …

• Philmont trek is a series of overnights interrupted by hikes with full packs.
• Seabase sailing adventures is a series of overnights interrupted by rolling up your bunk, stowing it in the hold, and snorkeling reefs or touring islands.
• We could say the same for extended adventures with dog sledding, cross country skiing, or circus caravans.

Look, let’s clear all of the machinations off the table and do what this forum prattles on incessantly about doing. Be boy led.

Have the scout read the requirements, look at his camping log, and ask him what he thinks should be decided.

OK, still having coffee and waiting for my teenagers to get out of bed, so...

Back to philosophy.  Here's another twist:

Q: Who decides what camping activities qualify for the camping requirement needed for election to the Order of the Arrow?

A: With the camping requirement, as with all other eligibility requirements, it is the unit leader's job to interpret whether a Scout has met the requirement.

As stated in the Guide for Officers and Advisers (2021 revision, page 18):

"Unit Leader Approval.  To become eligible for election, a Scout must be registered with the Boy Scouts of America and have the approval of their unit leader prior to the election. The unit leader must certify their Scout spirit (i.e., their adherence to the Scout Oath and Law and active participation in unit activities). The unit leader must also certify that the nominee meets all specified requirements at the time of this annual election."

Other than defining the length of time needed for a camping activity to be considered a long-term camp*, the National Order of the Arrow Committee leaves the interpretation of the camping requirement to the unit leader.

* A "long-term camp" is one consisting of at least six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping. A "short-term camp" is anything less than that.

https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/camping-requirement-interpretation

Unpack that one 😜

For the letter-of-the-lawyers, define "resident camp"

42 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Have the scout read the requirements, look at his camping log, and ask him what he thinks should be decided.

Love it; will do!

9 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Asked and answered here: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/

Wade through the myriad comments, if you dare.

From the article:

"Short-term campouts provide variety in both preparation and experience, and the Scouts are more likely to have to set up their own tent and take more responsibility for outdoor living skills. A long-term summer camp is still a long-term camp even if the Scout is there for only a portion of the time. It’s an entirely different adventure and usually doesn’t call for the same level of self-reliance required for a short-term camp."

I think we'll count the canoe trek as 5 short-term camping experiences, with a day of canoeing between each one 😜

2 hours ago, UKScouterInCA said:

OK, bit of an aside, but I always found the Req's for the Camping MB weird. The Scout can only claim one long term camping trip (up to 6 nights) and needs 20 nights. But no guidance on what a short term camping trip is. 1 night? 2? 3? 4? 5?. What about a Scout who has done multiple long term camps? It seems weird that they can use a one night car camping trip, but no nights at all from that 12 night Philmont expedition because they already had a summer camp counted? Or does it camp for x nights?

Same reasoning I was questioning, @UKScouterInCA.  It is all poorly worded.  I believe the intent is to have a Scout set up camp multiple times, in a multitude of different settings, and fit into the mindset @qwazse outlined above.

Look at the relaxed OA requirements for camping above.  If you are a letter-of-the-law person like @mrjohns2 , then a Scout could have camped in his own back yard 27-31 May (5 nights in May) and then 01-05 June (5 nights in June) and have been eligible with short term nights.  Never move his tent for this "virtual camping" experience.  Not exactly what we'd be looking for, huh?

2 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Don’t shirk the rules @InquisitiveScouter, it isn’t very obedient of you. Not everyone gets a ribbon, trophy, or sash. 

Not shirking.  But I am a spirit if the law person, rather than a letter of the law type.

56 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

No camping in September, October, or November? I think I see where the problem is. 

Troop was camping.  This Scout is also deeply active in school, sports, band, and church.  I wish every Scout was as well rounded as he.

Don't jump to conclusions without asking about the facts.

You aren't making a very splendid figure @mrjohns2

The canoe trek was August. Election is early Jan. We have one trip sched next month for 2 nights.  He'll be short 2, unless we count all the nights of August, then he'd be over the requirement.

Concur... but he has not been in Scouting for full two years. Joined at 13.  Very active, great skills, and participates a lot.  Def an "honor camper" already. I think it would be a disservice to him (and the Troop) to have him wait another year.

• Have experienced 15 nights of Scout camping while registered with a troop, crew, or ship within the two years immediately prior to the election. The 15 nights must include one, but no more than one, long-term camp consisting of at least five consecutive nights of overnight camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America. Only five nights of the long-term camp may be credited toward the 15-night camping requirement; the balance of the camping (10 nights) must be overnight, weekend, or other short-term camps of, at most, three nights each. Ship nights may be counted as camping for Sea Scouts.

OA "Selections" coming up. (They are not really elections. ) We have a First Class Scout who attended Summer Camp, so has the long term nights covered.  After camp, he also went on our canoe trek of 6 days and 5 nights.  Each day, they packed up camp and canoed to a new site, setting up a new camp.  

I think we should count those as short term versus long term nights, for eligibility purposes.  I believe the philosophy behind the  eligibilty requirement is to eliminate camping in one place for the required nights.

Thoughts?

Also to inform the discussion, consider 2021 OA policy:

• The limitation on counting no more than three (3) nights of virtual short-term camping in a single month is increased to five (5) nights per month. All other requirements for virtual short-term camping eligibility remain in effect.
• The requirement for a long-term camp of five (5) consecutive nights is relaxed. While council long-term camps should be utilized if available, any combination of short-term and/or long-term nights, in camp or virtual, that are part of a BSA unit-organized unit camping event held within the two years prior to election may be counted toward the 15 night requirement.

59 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

One certenly does not "mess in your own nest"  because it is a career for many.  The BSA couldn't afford to pay me for what I contribute, but that's OK because like most I don't do it for the money.

I do it for the money!  Our Committee just doubled my pay!!

$0 x 2 = $0

23 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Yes, but he was a paid professional. I don’t know how much he can no.

Barry

LOL, yes, you are correct.  But he could say "No" to being a "professional."

I have turned down several offers of DE positions...

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

The problem with any volunteer type organization is talented workers keep getting more responsibilities until they are sucked dry.

Yes!  This is why we tell new folks the best skill to acquire is to know when to say "No."

We give them the 5 year membership so they can apply for scholarships

He was a known quantity in the council. Worked other jobs on the staff and at camp...

I never had much interaction with him, and knew of him to be a generally good fellow.

First report was that as he got into the role, he realized he sincerely found it distasteful.

It is a curious development. I may ask my other contacts what the issue was.