5 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

I'm aware of what Capp said, also aware of the blowback those comments got. It undermined the purpose of the Lodge and forcing Lodges to send $$$ to National, when we could just create our own "camp society" and not operate under the name of Lodge. And, as the moment about NOAC illustrates, National doesn't actually stay in keeping to the Capp comments, as you can't attend a National event (NOAC, or even Arrow Corp, nor OAHA) without paying dues, and you have to do that through a Lodge.

So, to be clear, are you saying that Joey Scout, who is elected by his unit and goes through the Ordeal (having paid the fee and his membership dues in the local Lodge for the year), and becomes an Arrowman, that he ceases to be an Arrowman when his dues lapse next year for the local Lodge?

2 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

I'm aware of what Capp said, also aware of the blowback those comments got. It undermined the purpose of the Lodge and forcing Lodges to send $$$ to National, when we could just create our own "camp society" and not operate under the name of Lodge. And, as the moment about NOAC illustrates, National doesn't actually stay in keeping to the Capp comments, as you can't attend a National event (NOAC, or even Arrow Corp, nor OAHA) without paying dues, and you have to do that through a Lodge.

And yet they have not been removed, nor changed, nor further clarified, in spite of any "blowback."  

And I have no contention with anyone's statements about what the attendance policies or standards are for Lodge, Section, Area (or Service Territory), or National OA events.  Never made any assertions otherwise.

The absolute funny thing is, that I used to be of that mindset, during some of my tenure as Lodge Chief x 2/Vigil Honor (1984)/Ceremonies Team Chief x 6/Unit Elections x 2 /National Leadership Seminar/NOAC, etc etc. .etc But I had a great mentor who had been a Vigil Honor since the 1930's, was instrumental in founding many lodges in the Southeast, knew and worked with E. Urner Goodman, Carroll Edson, and J. Rucker Newbery, and a Lodge Advisor for another 25 years before I came along...

He pointed out the same principles I am pointing out to you.

28 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Only currently registered members of the Boy Scouts of America and the Order may wear the insignia of the Order of the Arrow.

Although I would withdraw my parent example based on this...

Any registered member of BSA who is an Arrowman may wear his insignia.  He is a member of the Order, regardless of lodge affiliation.

23 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

 

The conversation a Lodge Adviser has to have every now and then... Like the BSA, there is no such thing as lifetime membership in the OA. You are a member so long as you pay your membership dues. So no, it isn't exactly appropriate that someone continue to wear a sash if they are not paying their membership dues, the same as it is not appropriate to continue to wear a BSA uniform if you are not paying your annual BSA membership fee. True that an individual only goes through Ordeal once, but one has a continuing effort to be considered a member to wear the sash.

The handbook states "“Only currently registered members of the Boy Scouts of America and the Order may wear the insignia of the Order of the Arrow.” To be a member, you have to pay your Lodge dues, which includes $5.00 that goes to National for your OA membership dues.

 

Your statement is in direct contradiction to that published on the National OA site.

https://oa-bsa.org/article/ask-chairman-can-members-who-are-not-dues-paid-wear-lodge-flap

I'll go by what they say, thanks!

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

Ok, its a pretty simple train to follow:  attend the ordeal, complete the ordeal, remain active by paying dues, attend events, wear Sash.  Or attend the ordeal, complete the ordeal, don't remain active by not paying dues, don't attend lodge events, no Sash. Obviously I did read the post and perhaps you should read the mountains of literature available explaining the purpose and mission of the OA.   In fact it's now impossible to register for an event like NOAC unless you are an active member of your lodge.  Should I continue?

LOL

Yes, you should continue after reading the following:

Let's start with the Purpose and Mission of the OA: https://oa-bsa.org/about/mission-purpose

Mission & Purpose

 Please show me ANY statement in the above that membership requires a Scout to do anything with the Lodge after completing his induction. 😜 

Here's another reference:  https://oa-bsa.org/article/ask-chairman-can-members-who-are-not-dues-paid-wear-lodge-flap

Please note, "An Order of the Arrow member can always wear their sash and the Universal Arrow Ribbon once they have completed the induction. However, wearing a lodge flap indicates that their current dues are paid in the specific lodge that the flap represents. So, if the individual has not paid their dues, they should remove the flap from their uniform."

If you actually bothered to read the "mountains of literature" with intellectual honesty, you could only come to the conclusion that you are mistaken.

And I agree with your statement about NOAC, but that is irrelevant.  I made absolutely no pronouncements about NOAC or any other lodge, section, or National events like that.

OA business includes unit OA elections, where any Arrowman may wear his sash, regardless of his current lodge affiliation.

OA events at Summer Camp would also fit the bill.  OA days, OA Ice Cream Socials, Call-outs at the campfire, etc. etc. etc.  An Arrowman may wear his sash for those events, regardless of his current lodge affiliation.

Parents who are Arrowmen, and no longer affiliated with BSA, but observing the induction of their Scout at an Ordeal may wear their sash while attending, regardless of their current lodge affiliation.

You must make a distinction between being an Arrowman and being a lodge member.  They are two separate statuses.  Once inducted, you are ALWAYS a member of the Order of the Arrow.  Once you let your dues lapse in a lodge, you are no longer a "member in good standing", but retain your status as an Arrowman.  The honor was given by an Arrowman's unit, not by the Lodge.

Please continue, because you said "several" of my original assertions were incorrect.  You have yet to name any that were incorrect.

I'll leave you with two thoughts that apply in the situation:

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest."

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

For example the OA Sash is only worrn at OA events or while conducting OA business.

No one said otherwise.  Read the post... 

9 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

You still may wear your sash at any and all OA observances.

That means events and business...

What other points are incorrect??

7 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

And now I have a suggestion of insight:  Long rumored that post bankruptcy National will consolidate councils reducing from 210, more or less, to 80 more or less. About 130 Council Executives will lose their jobs.  In my council, that is about a $310,000 annual salary and benefit package. (And each of those Council Executives has every financial reason to vie for their Council's survival

And, considering that ALL Council Executives have to be approved by National (Yeah, Gates video on 'Council Guidance' notwithstanding), ALL Council Executives owe their JOBS to the largess and whims of National.

And therein "lies the rub." (not sure of the attribution of the concept-perhaps my friend ThenNow can help).

Perhaps all of the "independent" council executives are acting to protect their lucrative council executive jobs by supporting National's demand for contribution to the settlement fund.

This is the cancer that has eaten BSA away...

1 hour ago, MikeS72 said:

We always ask those who are eligible if they are interested in being on the ballot.  Over the last 5 elections we have had three who declined to be on the ballot.

Since it is not really an election, but rather a selection, now, I do not ask.

What I do tell them is that Order of the Arrow is part of our UNIT program, not the Lodge program!

WE use it as selection for an honor within OUR Troop.

I have talked with many Scouts who fear one of three things:

1.  I'm rejected.  OK, so what? So now you KNOW, rather than walking around guessing.  And that is an indication to you that there MAY be some area for improvement... if you should decide to improve.  Would you rather know, or would you rather guess?

2.  I do not want to be in the OA.  Fine, no one says you have to go through an Ordeal.  But, if you are selected by your fellow Scouts, you now have OPTIONS.

3.  I'll deny someone else the chance (rare). NO!  Because it is not an ELECTION.  It is a SELECTION.  No one else loses a slot because of your being on the Selection Menu (versus ballot).

By the way... and I have said this around here until I am BLUE in the face.  An Arrowman's FIRST duty is to his UNIT!  Not to the lodge!  Nothing obligates you to service to the Lodge.  If you choose to go through the Ordeal induction Ceremony, you are ALWAYS a member of the Order of the Arrow. 

Should you not wish to pay the dues next year, you will not be a member of the Lodge.  So what?  You still may wear your sash at any and all OA observances.  Just take off the flap...

Ordering patches now

1 hour ago, ALongWalk said:

We attended Scout Sunday today. We are so fortunate that our CO is solidly in favor of Scouting and that it provides so much support for the Pack and Troop.

So did we!  Wait... are we in the same unit??

1 hour ago, MattR said:

That rank can be done in a day,

Well... 30 days... right?

2 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

The reason I do not use pointers for astronomy is to provide scouts et al better opportunity to appreciate the greater cosmos, and to become a guide themselves and not simply an audience.

Imagine using descriptive language and the stars as pointers as the main guide. The purpose is to have viewers not just see a particular object, but see it within the greater cosmos. Also the joy experienced by a new sky viewer when they finally "find" the stellar object themselves. Sooner or later they then begin to describe to others how to find it. This creates a cycle of not just pointing out specific items, but for the participants to begin looking for other objects and guiding others to them as well.

Agreed.  But there are some who cannot "get it", even though you explain it ten times.  Also, I do let Scouts use the laser to point out the North Star to me, as a check of whether they have "got it."  I was surprised at how many, for instance, know the method... pointers stars from the Big Dipper , then five times the distance to hit Polaris... but in practice it seems only about 70-80% can do this.  That is, I ask them to tell how to find the North Star, then they explain it, and point in the general direction, but when I give them the laser to show me, they are off by a lot.  This even even after I have them use the two sticks in the ground method of aligning a "gun sight" (so to speak).

This also helps tremendously with Astronomy MB, Req 4:

(a) Identify in the sky at least 10 constellations, at least four of which are in the zodiac. (b) Identify in the sky at least eight conspicuous stars, five of which are of magnitude 1 or brighter.  

For these, I use star charts, drawings, apps, telescopes or binoculars on a tripod, and pictures before pulling out the laser 😜 

It is just one of many resources to use...

3 hours ago, yknot said:

but I think the whole point of LNT is to universally leave things that are out there in their own habitat unharmed and undisturbed within it as much as possible.

If you see that as the point, then please, follow your beliefs and never go into the woods again.  Also, please stop using electricity, because the windmills are killing far more birds...

As for me, until something more conclusive than your concoction emerges from scientific study and observation, I'll happily bring out my laser pointer to educate Scouts.

Happy Scouting 

3 minutes ago, jcousino said:

Just a side note about point a laser in the sky be sure not to point them at an airplane as this can results in criminal penalties.

On 2/2/2023 at 11:31 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Be careful not to use when aircraft are in the area you are pointing.  (Flashing aircraft with a laser is a felony!  https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/protecting-aircraft-from-lasers )

From post yesterday...

15 hours ago, yknot said:

Well, try Mr. Google. You can learn all about how lasers are used in bird dispersal. Or there are Audubon chapters in almost every state. Stop by and talk to someone sometime. We're supposed to be an outdoors conservation minded organization. I would think stuff like this wouldn't exactly be news. 

And btw, I am a Leave No Trace Master Educator.  Never in any syllabus item or class of instruction have we discussed laser pointers.

Just did a quick search of ALL my Instructor materials issued by BSA and LNT.... how many hits for 'laser'?? Zero.

And, you can use "Mr. Google", too!  (and it is rather sexist of you to assume Google is a 'Mr.' 😜  but we will allow it )  Search the lnt.org site for the word laser, and you know how many hits you get?  Zero.

OK, so I'll go another mile in those shoes...

https://www.sfvaudubon.org/a-guide-to-bird-locating/

Laser Pointers: Pen-sized lasers are now available in various powers and produce either a red or a (preferred) green beam.  Many professional tour guides use them; not all are equally adept at using them.  The key is to start from something obvious like a large rock or tree trunk.  Starting somewhere close to the bird is far less important.  Once everyone sees your laser “dot”, they can follow it as you move it along trunk, limb and twig to the bird.  Never shine the beam on the bird.  Keep the dot where the bird cannot see it so you don’t startle it.  Just below the bird works well, as does slowly circling the bird.  The dot will display better on solid objects like trunks or twigs than on leaves.  Avoid jerky movements.  In a forest of leaves, a moving laser beam scatters over many yards.  Birders more than a few feet to either side of the pointer-holder sees only a series of bright dots scattered over many leaves and won’t have a clue as to which dot is nearest the bird.  Warn the viewers of this scattering and reduce beam movement to a minimum.  

Your Honor, I rest my case.

13 hours ago, yknot said:

Well, try Mr. Google. You can learn all about how lasers are used in bird dispersal. Or there are Audubon chapters in almost every state. Stop by and talk to someone sometime. We're supposed to be an outdoors conservation minded organization. I would think stuff like this wouldn't exactly be news. 

I'm not gonna do the heavy lifting on your argument.  If you actually have a position to support, then support it.

Thanks @qwazse!  And the dispersal method is actually to aim the laser at the birds!  https://biglasers.com/blog/2022/08/16/understanding-green-laser-pointers-for-canada-goose-control/

Of course I would never do this... And, if you've ever used one responsibly, you know it only takes a second or two of pointing at your star to have everyone know exactly which one you are talking about.

It's nothing like the duration of say, those Christmas laser light displays people put up on their houses which go all night, in indiscriminate directions.

18 minutes ago, yknot said:

We have an observatory in our state park and the astronomers don't use laser pointers for scout talks during spring and fall migration. Songbirds migrate at night. The beam doesn't have to be pointed at them to disorient them.

Citation required.

6 minutes ago, yknot said:

We have an observatory in our state park and the astronomers don't use laser pointers for scout talks during spring and fall migration. Songbirds migrate at night. The beam doesn't have to be pointed at them to disorient them.

Your house lights, and the lights in your neighborhood and city disorient migratory birds more than any laser you will use in the wild...

Physician, heal thyself...

https://www.birdconservancy.org/lights-out-for-birds/#:~:text=Light from big buildings%2C street,visibility of the night sky.

1 minute ago, yknot said:

 

Bring the binoculars, leave the laser pointers at home. Just fyi, as per below, lasers can be disruptive to bird species, especially during migration months when many migrate at night, and are not allowed in many parks.  Using lasers at night is not in alignment with leave no trace principals.  

https://www.nps.gov/subjects/watchingwildlife/gear.htm

Also, regulations regarding possession, safe usage, etc., can vary by state and even municipality. Some shore communities have completely banned their use. 

LOL, that's for those inconsiderate people who point them at animals.

Certainly check the rules for wherever you are going.  And I recommend adults only handle the pointer.

Actually, looking at Scoutbook to refresh my recall...

There are THREE dates recorded for a rank:

Date Earned

Date Approved/Recorded

Date Awarded

The clock for advancement to next rank starts from Date Earned.

6 minutes ago, MattR said:

Once they complete their BOR. It has nothing to do with "approval".

A scout can be an eagle scout without ever having had a court of honor. Here, the approval date will be after the BOR but the only date of importance is the BOR date.

Ahh... our procedure is to "Approve" as soon as the BoR is complete... same date.

And OP did specifically ask about what happens in SB.

BTW, @Alec27, you can go back in SB and manipulate an "Earned" date to match the BoR date, if that is an issue.

1 hour ago, Alec27 said:

As we all know, a Scout has to hold a rank in the program for a specific amount of time (4 months, 6 months, etc) before advancing to the next rank.  My question is...which notation in Scoutbook actually stops the clock of the previous rank and starts the clock on the new rank.  Marking the rank as "approved" or marking the rank as "awarded"?  The reason I ask is because we often do not have a Court of Honor for several months or more and I have boys that are nearing "age out" and need every month they can get working toward Eagle.  I know that the awards can be moved to a PO after being "approved" post-BOR, but have also heard that UAC's should not mark them as "awarded" until they are physically given to the Scout.  So again....what stops the clock?  Approved or Awarded.  

Thank You All !!!

Approved.

You can accumulate several ranks in Scoutbook "to be awarded".

But, you should not be waiting until a Court of Honor to award a rank or badge.  You should be doing this as soon as possible after the rank or badge is earned.

Read your Scout Handbook, approx page 414. "As soon as possible, you are recognized for your achievement at a troop meeting where you recevie your badge. (You'll later be recognized again at a special ceremony call a court of honor.)"

Once we "award" at a troop meeting, we mark it in Scoutbook.  Then for your future Court of Honor, you can run the "Scouts BSA Recognition Report" backdated to your last CoH, for a complete list of everything to be recognized at the upcoming CoH.

Our Scouts rarely wait more than a week to get their badges... just enough time to get to the Scout store to purchase.  Fortunately, our Advancement person lives a few blocks from the store, and has a weekly routine of going the day of our Scout meeting to pick up items.  Your mileage will obviously vary...

24 minutes ago, curious_scouter said:

Also an advocate for paper book.  In our unit that's the official record. 

Today SB is updated by our adv chair after a successful BOR but does not include the individual requirement dates - only the BOR is updated.

We have a handful of newer Scouts and families entering progress directly.  You need to set expectations with them.  As many are coming in from Cubs, their belief is they are "signing off" on the requirement by doing that.  They get frustrated to find out later it's really just a "heads up" the Scout is ready to test on those.  They still need to meet with someone in the unit authorized to sign off on requirements.  But.. if you can get ahead of expectations I think it's really handy to be able to see the actual progress of the troop online at a glance.

I'm a data driven guy.  Someone has volunteered to start loading Scout-->First class status into SB for us time to time.  This will help us because we can then pull reports from SB and find out like "23 Scouts need this specific requirement".  The PLC can use that to plan meetings and outings that have more impact.

Because MBs go straight into SB we have been able to do this kind of report for Eagle Required badges.  That's helped the PLC as well as the leadership.  It's been helping us to help scouts avoid panic later "Hey buddy, you have like 10 eagle required badges left to finish and you're getting older.  Might want to knock off 3 or 4 at summer camp this year and keep your eyes open for other chances to get them done."  It's been very beneficial, just that bit of "hey buddy" has been enough to encourage some good decisions and proactive action.

Concur, to a point...

We had a Scout who was working on Tenderfoot.  He did not take good care of his book, and his requirements page ripped out, and he lost the page with his progress.

I sat with him, read through the requirements, and asked him if he could remember which requirements he had completed, and with whom.  I was going to help him verify, and was prepared to take him at his word for many.

For some, he said he could not remember.  He asked me if he was going to have to re-do the requirements, and I told him yes, for the ones you cannot remember or that we cannot verify.  Later that week I got a message from his Mom that he was leaving Scouting.

Now, there were many other factors at play with that young man, and I know he was having a rough go in other areas of his life.  This seemed to be one thing he simply was unwilling to stick with, given the speed bump he had hit.

I do believe, had his items been backed up in Scoutbook, and allowed for an easy recovery from this, he'd still be in Scouting today.

We tell our Scouts that the primary written record is their Scout Handbook.  But we warn them (this Scout included), that written records are fragile, especially in the hands of an active 12 year old.  We are happy to help them by recording things in Scoutbook, but the responsibility for seeing that is done is on their shoulders!

About 80% of our Scouts are diligent in syncing the two systems of record.

Very few do not have anything recorded in Scoutbook, and we do as @curious_scouter does above... when they meet their BoR with their Scout Handbook, the Advancement chair records the BoR in Scoutbook, and we award the rank.

Without a backup record, it is only a matter of time until this happens again.

We also tell Scouts to take a picture of their requirements page, as a sufficient record, especially if it becomes detached.  We have reconstructed a record in Scoutbook from a picture like that....

2 hours ago, RangerEagle said:

Planning an AOL campout for March. The boys wanted to do another campout together before crossing over.

Will be in the mountains of southern California, so a chance of being cool to cold.

Planning on having the boys plan/cook the meals. We will do a hike, probably 5-6 miles, minimal elevation change with lunch on the trail. Flag retirement ceremony. Of course they will do fire building!

 

Looking for additional items to add into the weekend. Want it to be fun, outdoor educational, but also be a capstone for AOL and Cub Scouts. Will use it to review outdoor skills we've learned over the years and ensure our scouts who joined late are caught up for crossing over.

I like the color guard idea. We won't have a flag pole, but can certainly do a flag ceremony in the morning and night.

Moon looks to be just past new, so maybe astronomy. I just don't own a telescope. Maybe having them use a star map and teach celestial navigation?

During the hike, maybe have a nature scavenger hunt? I took my then 7 and 9 year old hiking on this same trail once and .5 miles into it they started complaining. Had them start counting the number of animals they saw and their complaints were non-existent. Figure it would be good to keep them mentally occupied while also engaged in the hike. Will probably need to add a prize in to get the boys to participate in it!

Our last pack campout we did a faith service. Maybe 10 minutes, but had the boys lead most of it. Had a call to worship, sang God Bless America, a thanksgiving prayer, the "message" was a scout reciting the scout law with a three to five sentence explanation for each point, and a benediction. Anyone do a faith service?

 

All great ideas...

- You do not need a flag pole.  You can make own.  Pretty easy with some staves, rope and stakes.  Check out the Scout handbook Woods Tools Section for round lashings.  Lacking staves, you can throw a rope over a tree branch to raise a flag.  (My preferred method.)  Just need a long rope and a flag for that one...

- For your astronomy, recommend you invest in a modest pair of binoculars (instead of a telescope) and/or a green laser.  I use the laser all the time with Scouts to point out stars.  Be careful not to use when aircraft are in the area you are pointing.  (Flashing aircraft with a laser is a felony!  https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/protecting-aircraft-from-lasers )  In March, you might be able to catch Orion.  Pretty cool and easily recognizable constellation and has the red giant Betelgeuse  (pronounced Beetlejuice).  The color of the star is very noticeable to young eyes.  Old farts might need the binoculars for better acuity.  You can project forward in time with Heavens Above interactive sky chart to get an idea of what you might see.  https://www.heavens-above.com/skychart2.aspx?lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=UCT

Then, you can also download and use some good apps on your phone for real time sky chart.

- Webelos are allowed to use bowsaws!  You could incorporate some sawing.  https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf

- We always plan for a faith service on camping trips.  "Scout's Own"  The challenge to our PLC is that they have not met the Gold Standard unless they have a flag ceremony and a worship service.

- How about some Leave No Trace principles??  Lots of stuff to do there...