InquisitiveScouter
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Posts posted by InquisitiveScouter
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46 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:
A bit off topic at this point, but I would love to beta test that orienteering lesson with my wolf-soon-to-be-bear den. We just did Finding Your Way and they loved it, so I see an opportunity to feed that beast with orienteering. I'm not an expert myself, just loved orienteering in gym class, so would love a plan to execute... Plus an excuse to go trail running 😇
Have you looked at geocaching?? Younger Scouts tend to love this exercise! I always bring a map and compass, and have Scouts show me where we are on a map while geocaching.
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The comments other leaders put on the blog article are really good, too. Recommended reading.
Thanks for your comments so far... the great majority of us are thinking along the same lines...
Overall, there are two big problems with the ESSP Workbook...
1. Too much project detail required in the REQUIRED proposal section, which leads to little or no detail written in the NOT REQUIRED plan section.
2. The Plan Section is NOT REQUIRED.
Both are easy fixes, IMHO.
1. Rewrite the proposal section to be just that... more of a proposal than a plan.
2. Make it a requirement that the Scout present his Final Plan to the beneficiary, and secure a beneficiary signature BEFORE work begins. A registered unit leader should be at this meeting (do we require that?), but IS NOT an approval authority. However, there must be a clear understanding that the Scouters providing the two-deep supervision requirement for the ESSP may AT ANY TIME stop work due to health and safety concerns.
Thoughts??
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We have an upcoming EBoR (the first since I left as SM 18 months ago).
The Scout, working with his project coach (not me) and the beneficiary, satisfied the beneficiary with enough detail in his project proposal and through discussions and site visits that the beneficiary did not request a more detailed plan, and gave the Scout the green light to do the project (last summer).
Scout had a successful project and beneficiary is happy with the outcome, and signed off on project completion.
Scout turned in his ESSP Workbook with that Plan section blank, as it is not required (although "highly recommended")
Now Scout is getting pushback from Council Advancement rep that he has to fill out that section.
I have advised the Scout not to do that. If the detailed written plan was to be done, it was to be done prior to the project. Basically, it seems to me that the council guy wants the Scout to write another after action report.
I have advised the Scout that, if the question comes up during his EBoR about why he did not fill in that section, to simply explain that the beneficiary was satisfied with his level of planning, and that he was thrifty with his time in not filling out the unrequired section of the workbook.
This is sort of along the lines explained here:
Any other tips for mentoring this Scout, who after a terse email interaction with the council advancement rep, will be scheduled for his EBoR shortly?
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LOL, had to use Google translate for that, but loved it.
As to the rest, well, that's a topic for another thread 😜
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No, not a registered member. Yes, start with an adult application and YPT.
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NSF leaders ran the camp. The Scouts were there for four weeks total. We did Scout activities and games during the days, and there was a one or two hour Lutheran confirmation class each day for the Scouts. (during which time I had to peel about 50 lbs of potatoes... in fact, one of the first things I learned how to say in Swedish was "Jag skalar potatis!!" ) Saturday was usually a field trip (Vadstena, Tokern, Vattern, Gota Canal, the beach in Motala, etc.), and Sunday was a worship service in a wonderful nearby church, Röks kyrka
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Röks_kyrka
This is where the Scouts had their confirmation at the end of camp as well. At the time (1987), the Lutheran Church was still the official church of Sweden. I think Sweden had a separation of church and state in the late 90's??? (Google says 2000.)
But at our campfires, we sang the usual songs... I definitely remember Temperaturen!! They had words printed out for me, but I didn't speak any Swedish at all when I arrived. I knew lots of curse words by the time I left 😜 Scouts loved to hear me say dirty things in Swedish with my American southern accent, especially when I had no idea what they meant...
I remember at one campfire, they were going around the circle singing verses. I thought they'd skip me, but no... when they got to me, the song leader pointed at me, so I just sang about the first 15 seconds of this...
Everyone literally fell over laughing. They loved it!!
The cooks there made the most delicious salmon (lax) with dill sauce, and we ate lots of other fish dishes... tonfisk, torsk, forell... yummy!!
And any red meat dish we had was smothered in gravy or lingonberry. But, I suppose hunger is the best cook, which, for a 19 year old means the food was always delicious 😜
But, the one food I absolutely detested, was pickled herring (sillen!!!) The older adults ate the stuff left and right....yuk!!
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I learned this one 40 years ago at our Nykterhetsrörelsens Scoutförbund Konfirmationsläger mealtimes.
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glädjens_Herre,_var_en_gäst
Jag älskar svensk mat!!
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36 minutes ago, PACAN said:
@InquisitiveScouter I forgot my 😉 emoji on my first statement.
LOL, thanks! I HUGELY appreciate sarcasm 😜
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-surprising-benefits-of-sarcasm/
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35 minutes ago, PACAN said:
Cub Camping is one night because of the huge file national has on how many injuries there are on the 2nd night.
And how much bigger is that file than the one where the injuries occurred on the first night?
Correlation is not a cause.
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1 minute ago, cmd said:
Mind if I private message you for some tips? My husband has been asked to become an Orienteering MB counselor and is totally new to any MBC role or even observing how such a thing works. And I've got writing a cub-level (or just "beginner" for any age) orienteering lesson to offer our camp on my list of things to do as soon as I finish my Woodbadge ticket. Why did all the ideas of things I really want to fix come to me AFTER I filled out that ticket paperwork?
Sure thing!
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2 minutes ago, cmd said:
I think the map only piece is an excellent GUIDELINE. Our local camp has a permanent orienteering course and they have camp rangers available to teach kids how to use map and compass to find the controls. Cubs are welcome, but it's the same explanation whether you're in 1st grade or 10th. Explaining how a topo map works and maybe using a compass to orient the map if there aren't clear enough landmarks to go by, then trying to follow the map alone would have been far more age-appropriate. That said, as a member of the local orienteering club, I would argue that it's also how you should start out with the 10th grader, too, and not introduce sighting and finer details of compass work until they could read the map easily. In our area, it's actually pretty rare to need more than a properly oriented map. If that's the kind of course your scouts are on, it's going to seem like an especially useless skill. I'd been orienteering several years before finally doing a 6 hour meet in an area with no trails and lots of impassable areas and it finally made sense to me why someone would need it!
One could argue that not teaching them to use a compass is a safety issue because having one discourages you from really reading the map closely, and that's the more important survival, but it's a real stretch. I think it's really one of those "overwhelming little kids is bad for retention" arguments - when underwhelming them is twice as bad.
Or it might be a "save stuff for them to learn at the troop level" but orienteering was the lesson used to teach the EDGE method in my IOLS class and they were doing it completely wrong while stressing the importance of not stepping in and correcting the youth unless it was a safety issue. I asked how the next kids were supposed to teach it correctly if they'd been taught wrong and the answer was that hopefully before teaching it they'd get a book out to refresh themselves and notice the error. WHAT?? I'd rather my child not be taught wrong things in the first place. You know what's going to kill a youth's self-esteem and perceived value of scouting even faster than having an adult gently correct a youth instructor who misspoke? Having a scout go home excited and try to share his new knowledge and have someone not-so-gently tell him he's wrong.
I teach map and compass skills, and an Orienteering MB counselor, among other things. @cmd gives perfect advice...
The most important skill to have in navigation is map reading. Most beginner or intermediate orienteering courses can be done with map reading only.
I use a compass most frequently to tell me one thing --- Which way is magnetic north? And I need to know that to orient my map.
It does blow their mind when they put this together: Every day at noon (for those of us who live in the northern hemisphere above the tropical line), your shadow points true north. Use that to orient your map.
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27 minutes ago, sierracharliescouter said:
Also, poor relativistic risk assessment, such as Lions and Tigers allowed to do bouldering, but not other activities with similar or higher risk factors.
Yes, well, you have to dig into that a little more... "bouldering" as you may know it is not the same as "bouldering" as the BSA defines it...
(Kind of like the word "overnight" 😛 )
Most people outside of BSA know bouldering as this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouldering
But BSA imposes some pretty stringent restrictions on the activity. (No more than 6', or no more than shoulder height, without belay, depending on where you are reading. Again, unclear guidance... imagine that.)
https://www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/cope/climb-on-safely/
In one place, this restriction applies: "Everyone must be belayed or tethered when within 8 feet of an edge where a fall of more than 6 feet could occur."
In another ( https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/pdf/430-500_BelayOn_WB.pdf , this one: ".Other walls are horizontal rather than vertical, providing climbers with opportunities to practice traverses and bouldering moves while ascending no more than six feet above the ground."
In another: "The key to safe bouldering is for climbers to keep their feet fairly close to the ground, never ascending higher than their shoulder height above the ground."
In another: "Anyone engaged in bouldering must be protected by spotters. In addition to spotters, mats or pads should be placed at the base of indoor climbing walls to protect boulderers. Instructors and participants who climb higher than shoulder height above the ground must have a belay to protect them in case they fall."
So, if you apply the most restrictive guidance, no one (from Lions to adults) can go over their own shoulder height without belay.
The least restrictive guidance is no higher than 6 feet without belay.
And tree climbing is prohibited. (LOL)
"Extreme or action sports and associated activities that involve an unusually high degree of risk and often involve speed, height, a high level of exertion, and specialized gear or equipment. These activities include but are not limited to:
Tree climbing"
Q. Why can’t we climb trees?
A. Falls are a leading cause of injury to members of our Scouting family and one of the top five claims against the general liability insurance program. Technical tree-climbing has been prohibited for more than a decade, due primarily to not being able to safely belay participants. Tree climbing has no belay; thus, it is prohibited. This is mainly a clarification rather than a new prohibition.
Can you imagine being a kid and being told you cannot climb a tree?
https://www.fatherly.com/entertainment/how-to-climb-tree-kids-instructions-stay-safe
BTW... I let Scouts climb trees if their parent is present, they give permission, and I have another adult witness. I also tell the parent that BSA prohibits the activity, I do not assume any responsibility or risk, and that insurance will not cover a fall. They assume the risk. 😜
What is Assumption of Risk?
The doctrine of assumption of risk is an affirmative defense that may be available to some defendants in personal injury lawsuits. The law has determined that certain activities come with an innate risk, and plaintiffs who voluntarily participate in these activities and become injured as a result cannot sue based on a negligence theory. In other words, the defense holds that people who choose to do certain dangerous activities can't turn around and hold others liable when they're injured as a result of those activities, especially if they knew of the risk of harm and assumed the risk by doing the activity anyway.
In order for a defendant to invoke the assumption of the risk defense, the plaintiff must have:
- Known that there was a risk of the same sort of injury that the plaintiff actually suffered, and
- Voluntarily took on that danger (assumed the risk) in participating in the activity.
Assumption of risk can either be an express assumption of risk or an implied assumption of risk. An express assumption of risk is often made in writing, usually in the form of a written agreement such as a signed waiver or contract. However, an express assumption of the risk doesn't have to be in writing, as it can also be made verbally.
An implied assumption of risk, on the other hand, is not written or stated out loud. Rather, a plaintiff acted in a way that reflected an understanding of the risk and a willingness to take part anyway. An example of an implied assumption of the risk is if an amusement park patron stood and watched a roller coaster for several minutes before deciding to go on the ride. The patron's observation of the roller coaster suggests an understanding of the inherent risks and a decision to assume those risks by participating in the recreational activity.
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1 minute ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:
This rule is almost certainly going to be effectively broken unless a good rationale can be given.
This, too @RichardB
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6 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:
If the members of this group didn't understand BSA's rules, BSA has a big problem.
This.
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6 minutes ago, MattR said:
Sounds like a MB win to me.
Another idea, at least one I could use, is a fireplace rake for separating coals from ash in a wood stove. It's a pole attached to a double sided rake. One side is a flat blade to push everything to the back of the stove and the other is like a regular rake to pull the coals forward out of the ash. So, a plate for one side and pieces of rebar welded to the plate to make the rake side, along with a pole sticking out perpendicular to that.
No need for them in Texas but maybe Etsy.
Maybe he could make me a "Shusher"!!!
https://memes.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/ef68ce5d-d1e8-4a8f-81a3-ba91a7391372
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Well, five stakeholders...
5. Boy Scouts of America - wants money (and there is never enough)
... and it clearly is structured to meet that agenda.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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9 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:
This is what I mean by adults overthinking, over evaluating, over supervising and overregulating a whole great big organization. Much of what is stated as fact are nothing more then someone's good idea that is not based on research. Rather, it's based on emotion and theory. The age old question of what forms a person; environment, social standing, education, early childhood development, nuclear family, diet, etc. By the time a child reaches Scout age much of their persona has been formed. With everything that they are exposed to and the pressure they feel as they try to establish their own identity, what's wrong with Scouting being a positive outlet that focuses on just having fun?
Because the idea that "Scouting is a positive outlet that focuses on just having fun" is too limited, and unappealing to two of the three (or four?) stakeholders in Scouting.
Each of the three (or four) groups of stakeholders in Scouting has a different agenda.
1. Youth - want fun and adventure
2. Parents - want safety and personal growth for their children at a reasonable expenditure (or some primarily want a resume bullet)
3. The CO/Community/Country - wants productive citizens
(4. Volunteers - want to have a positive impact on lives and the future of our country... or maybe just some knots on a uniform 😜 )
Scouting is a program designed to meet all three (four?) agendas. So, if you want it to be successful, you have to address each.
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4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:
A few of the reasons why folks in my neck of the woods do not use them are 1) Council has a habit of losing paperwork, even hand-delivered paperwork, 2, they never received word if the fundraiser was approved or not, and 3) one SE did indeed demand 10%-15% of the profits for it to be approved. This is the same SE who yelled and cursed out district level volunteers, causing them to quit. As you can imagine, that did not go over well.
Whenever we turn in the paperwork, we operate under the assumption that is is approved unless we hear otherwise. We do not allow a lack of action on council's part to stop our efforts.
Now, we do turn in the paperwork at least one month ahead of time, and we follow up with two weeks remaining. That is ample opportunity for council to voice any concerns.
And if anyone ever asked for a cut, we tell them they are more than welcome to work in the fundraiser with us, and have their percentage share from whatever they sell. (That is, part of their fundraising goes to our unit 😜 )
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2 hours ago, cmd said:
Thanks. The charter org is pushing us to just make a google calendar to reserve the space, but it's hard enough getting the correct time on things in ONE calendar. I guarantee we'll have things in the troop calendar at different times from what the room reservation calendar says and that when things get canceled or rescheduled they'll end up staying on the reservation calendar much longer than necessary. Our units rely on the eBlast feature of our website to communicate upcoming events, so using JUST Google calendars seems like it would be unpopular.
If troop web host can help with that it would be amazing.
If each unit uses Scoutbook, you could subscribe to each units' calendar in one central Google calendar. Therefore, no need to maintain or put items into the Google calendar. Changes in Scoutbook automatically populate to the Google calendar (although this can be delayed a bit.) You can look at the central Google calendar just to see conflicts.
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21 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:
Lazy adults bother me.
An age old problem, my friend...
How old is the story of the Ant and the Grasshopper??
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1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:
The only rationale for this arbitrary rule is that the folks making it are under the impression that 'Cubs don't need to camp." Yep heard this from a member of the council camping committee a while back.
I know one pack will now start having two overnight experiences when they do pack camping. One overnight experience will be from 5PM Friday to 12:00 Saturday, and a second overnight experience from 12PM Saturday to 11AM Sunday. Families can choose which overnight experience they want to attend, or if they want to do two over night experiences in a month.
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To facilitate the change over, they must physically step foot out of the established campground. So, a trip to the local gas station, convenience store, or even just stepping into the easement of the road would do it (not into the road of course... that would be more dangerous than the two back-to-back over-(meaning one)-nighters.
Letter of the law!!
In fact, maybe we could coin a new term... OVERMONIGHTER = over-meaning-one-nighter
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2 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:
I am totally convinced if a Scout cooked a weenie on a coat hanger over a propane burner, all the cooking requirements would be signed off. Its all really frustrating.
@5thGenTexan, I resolved long ago that I am only responsible for my actions, and no one else's. You will always have liars, cheaters, and thieves out there. Just stick to your principles (Scout Oath and Law) and model that for your Scouts. And when you stray from them (as we will!!!), own it, admit it, make amends (if possible), ask forgiveness, and move on.
You will have an effect, just as the liars, cheaters, and thieves will.
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Funny that this thread starts on 21 Feb 2023, and the definitions on line were changed after 23 Feb.
WE ARE HAVING AN EFFECT!!!
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2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:
Actually if you look up Webelos Overnighter in the Language of Scouting webpage, they changed to last week to say 1 night. Prior to that, it was one or two nights.
Welcome to 1984.
Current page (06 Mar 2023):
https://www.scouting.org/resources/los/#
ENTRY: overnighter A Cub Scout Pack organized one night campout held at a Council designated location. Also see “Webelos Scout overnighter.”
ENTRY: Webelos Scout overnighter A one night campout by Webelos Scouts and their parent or guardian.
Cached on 23 Feb 2023
http://web.archive.org/web/20230221012845/https://www.scouting.org/resources/los/
ENTRY: overnighter See “Webelos Scout overnighter.”
ENTRY: Webelos Scout overnighter A one- or two-night campout by Webelos Scouts and their parent or guardian.
Yes, Orwellian @Eagle94-A1
First site capture I can find: 05 Jun 2019
http://web.archive.org/web/20190605234607/https://www.scouting.org/resources/los/
NO ENTRY for "Overnighter"
ENTRY: Webelos Scout overnighter A one- or two-night campout by Webelos Scouts and their parent or guardian.
There are 86 captures on the site from 05 Jun 2019 to today. You can view them and see where the changes occurred yourself.
http://web.archive.org/web/20190601000000*/https://www.scouting.org/resources/los/
30 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:More gaslighting.
By @Eagle94-A1?? or by BSA??
The Dreaded Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, Project Plan Section
in Open Discussion - Program
Posted
Awww.... I wanted to see that 😛