InquisitiveScouter

The canoe trek was August. Election is early Jan. We have one trip sched next month for 2 nights.  He'll be short 2, unless we count all the nights of August, then he'd be over the requirement.

Concur... but he has not been in Scouting for full two years. Joined at 13.  Very active, great skills, and participates a lot.  Def an "honor camper" already. I think it would be a disservice to him (and the Troop) to have him wait another year.

• Have experienced 15 nights of Scout camping while registered with a troop, crew, or ship within the two years immediately prior to the election. The 15 nights must include one, but no more than one, long-term camp consisting of at least five consecutive nights of overnight camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America. Only five nights of the long-term camp may be credited toward the 15-night camping requirement; the balance of the camping (10 nights) must be overnight, weekend, or other short-term camps of, at most, three nights each. Ship nights may be counted as camping for Sea Scouts.

OA "Selections" coming up. (They are not really elections. ) We have a First Class Scout who attended Summer Camp, so has the long term nights covered.  After camp, he also went on our canoe trek of 6 days and 5 nights.  Each day, they packed up camp and canoed to a new site, setting up a new camp.  

I think we should count those as short term versus long term nights, for eligibility purposes.  I believe the philosophy behind the  eligibilty requirement is to eliminate camping in one place for the required nights.

Thoughts?

Also to inform the discussion, consider 2021 OA policy:

• The limitation on counting no more than three (3) nights of virtual short-term camping in a single month is increased to five (5) nights per month. All other requirements for virtual short-term camping eligibility remain in effect.
• The requirement for a long-term camp of five (5) consecutive nights is relaxed. While council long-term camps should be utilized if available, any combination of short-term and/or long-term nights, in camp or virtual, that are part of a BSA unit-organized unit camping event held within the two years prior to election may be counted toward the 15 night requirement.

59 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

One certenly does not "mess in your own nest"  because it is a career for many.  The BSA couldn't afford to pay me for what I contribute, but that's OK because like most I don't do it for the money.

I do it for the money!  Our Committee just doubled my pay!!

$0 x 2 = $0

23 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Yes, but he was a paid professional. I don’t know how much he can no.

Barry

LOL, yes, you are correct.  But he could say "No" to being a "professional."

I have turned down several offers of DE positions...

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

The problem with any volunteer type organization is talented workers keep getting more responsibilities until they are sucked dry.

Yes!  This is why we tell new folks the best skill to acquire is to know when to say "No."

We give them the 5 year membership so they can apply for scholarships

He was a known quantity in the council. Worked other jobs on the staff and at camp...

I never had much interaction with him, and knew of him to be a generally good fellow.

First report was that as he got into the role, he realized he sincerely found it distasteful.

It is a curious development. I may ask my other contacts what the issue was.

P.S.  Even doing an annual increase, that would be about a 10% per year increase!

So, council announced our new DE two weeks ago in our council newsletter!!

He quit today.

Speaks volumes...

Reviving this old thread.

Was just looking at our Troop budget for next year, as we purchase a 5-Year NESA Membership for our new Eagle Scouts.

Price is now $100!!  Effective 20 Jan 2022.  Yes, I know I'm a little late, but we didn't have any Eagle Scouts this year due to a zero recruitment year 5 years ago.  But that's another story...

That's a 286% increase.

Here's their gobbledygook:

"NESA is the largest and most recognized group of Eagle Scout Alumni Achievers. We’ve kept membership fees artificially low for many years while offering a high number of college scholarships and other unique Eagle Scout opportunities.  Just as you and your family must keep pace with rising costs, we must ensure a robust ability to deliver membership experiences that support and protect the mission, values, and time-honored traditions of Scouting."

There is an 8-hour ECSI WFA refresher course.  It does not count for BSA WFA.

BSA has issued a WFA curriculum:

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-008.pdf

And ESCI and BSA have an agreement that the BSA course is 16 hours....

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/training/ecsi/

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/training/wilderness-fa/

There are two options for completing the 16-hour requirement: all classroom, or blended 8-hour online and 8-hour classroom. 

I have taught both courses.  I prefer the full 16-hour in-person course.  In fact, I do not offer the blended course any more.  I'll explain why if you'd like to know...

If someone is teaching an 8-hour course only, and marking it as sufficient for BSA, then I believe they are wrong.  Of course, who is watching or checking at the council level??

5 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

It's  1:30am,  in 14 hours  I head out to an joint Ordeal for four local chapters.  The ceremonies will have to be done by people who have never  done them before, never practiced together,  or even alone because no one knows who has what part.  I will have at best 2-3 hours to work with them before the pre starts. I am honestly dreading this. But until December 31st I'm still the ceremonies advisor for one of the chapters and so I have a duty to do what little I can,  even if my  chapter no longer has a team. 

Prayers  would be much appreciated my brothers.

Walititin Mikemossin Wunachuk

I have witnessed many poor ceremonies where principals read from the books.  I recommend focusing on the movements and the flow of the ceremony, rather than worrying about lines.

Take heart... most candidates don't really get the meaning of what they are hearing anyway.  It takes exposure to the speeches in the ceremonies and ideas several times until the real meaning of the OA begins to sink in.  (Like, studying for Brotherhood...)

17 minutes ago, PACAN said:

Are there other UMC units out there that can share what they are doing?  

We are not a UMC-chartered unit, but I know of several in our area.

Two linked Troops (B & G) sought out separate new CO's.  One went to Kiwanis, and the other to a local Fire House.  However, they are staying at their UMC with a FUA, because the relationship is good and the congregation wishes to continue support.

Another has council as CO, as they could not find a willing participant, so took up this charter as a temporary arrangement.  They are currently at their UMC with a FUA, but are looking to pull up stakes and move completely, when they can find a new home.

A mixed bag, it seems...

1 minute ago, Eagledad said:

The most entertaining units to watch are the ones with a main leader who has military experience, but the rest of the adults don't.

Entertaining?  Elaborate, please?

As a retired military member deeply involved in our unit, I find that parents and other volunteers greatly appreciate my direct style, and that I hold Scouts and adults accountable for their actions, and to live up to the promises they make.  If you agree to serve, and then you don't (absent some extenuating circumstances), we simply thank the volunteers for their interest, and move along...

Now, I do wish I could give out Article 15's, as there have been a few adults who certainly deserve them 😜  But, it is much easier to "trim the dead wood" in a Scout unit than it is in the military

I actually find that the average person without military experience fares worse in those leadership roles...  ref @Armymutt above...

5 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Whoever it needs to be addressed by isn't the issue.  The issue is an attitude that no one should ever be disappointed or sad.  So to keep this from happening everybody passes everything all the time.  This isn't just true in Scouting, it's common in everything, except maybe football.  As far as Scouting goes if a kid can't tie a few knots, put up a tent, build a fire or preform a little basic first aid they should never be awarded the First Class.  If a kid sits in a Merit Badge session at a Merit Badge University and just breaths the air, they don't get the merit badge.  But then little Timmy gets upset and tells mom or dad who call the office and cause a STINK, and all of a sudden Timmy gets the merit badge.  Timmy then learns that if you shout loud enough and stamp your feet you get what you want even if you don't deserve it.  Or a young person  plans a great Eagle project that is completed mainly by the parents.  This does not satisfy the requirement but the Eagle BOR passes them.   Sorry folks, but this devalues the whole thing for everybody else.  How about a Troop Committee administratively presenting merit badges to a 17 year old kid allowing him to earn Eagle before he turned 18?  Unbelievable, dishonest, unethical, just plane wrong,  diminished the value for Eagles everywhere?  Yes yes yes and yes, but it happened!  If I had been involved in that I would have no no no, that young man would NOT HAVE BEEN AWARDED EAGLE, no matter how sad, mad or disappointed he and his parents were.

 

I have had many parents ask that I sign something off for their Scout, that the Scout did not do.  When I explain the requirement, most completely agree.  Over many many years, I've only had a small few demand (LOL) that I sign something off.

I politely refused, explaining I did not see how the Scout had completed the requirement.  One even taunted that they'd just get someone else to sign it off.  I tell them I am not responsible for what others do.  I am only responsible for what I do.

Here's a great phrase to unpack in a Scoutmaster's Minute:

"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest."

3 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

How about a Troop Committee administratively presenting merit badges to a 17 year old kid allowing him to earn Eagle before he turned 18?  Unbelievable, dishonest, unethical, just plane wrong,  diminished the value for Eagles everywhere?  Yes yes yes and yes, but it happened!  If I had been involved in that I would have no no no, that young man would NOT HAVE BEEN AWARDED EAGLE, no matter how sad, mad or disappointed he and his parents were.

You have got to be kidding me!!!  Surely it wasn't that egregious??

Removed...

1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

Do you think anyone has the volunteer time available to do the job needed at the SE level?

LOL, wasn't implying they should be a volunteer.

My premise (as I think BP's was, too) is that the whole construct of commercializing the operation is what "poisons the well."

What is the primary reason for councils to exist??  You should really explore that question. 

I propose the radical idea of doing away with that structure entirely. 

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

A well thought out answer.  I need to find when #2 had the words "on your Eagle Scout Rank Application" added.  It would be within the last 12 years.  The handbook I just grabbed does not say that.  As you point out, it is in BSA's eagle rank requirements statement though.  Hmmm...

This is about BSA documentation biting us again.  Someone added words without thinking about the circular requirement and how all the piece parts work together.  It's circular because most scouts don't complete the Eagle rank application until they think they are done completing the requirements, but they can't complete the application without filling out the Eagle rank application.  ...  Worse.  By putting it in requirement #2, now many scouts for years have not been in explicit compliance with completing the first six eagle rank requirements before they turn 18.  A large number of Eagle applications are completed after the scout turns 18. 

BSA has long had the position that the Eagle rank application is not required to be filled out before the scout turns 18.   That's always been clear.  Page 12 on Eagle rank app timing.   https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/advancement_news/2014_april-may.pdf?_ga=2.50163238.1600529180.1668055739-2140547674.1658366459&_gl=1*18mfjm7*_ga*MjE0MDU0NzY3NC4xNjU4MzY2NDU5*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTY2ODA1NTczOS41LjEuMTY2ODA1NzA2Mi42MC4wLjA.

I will be sticking with my original assertion though.  Eagle rank application is not required, but you can't earn Eagle without it.   This is a BSA's documentation issue.

• Nuanced argument ... A massive amount of Eagle scouts don't fill out the Eagle rank application before they turn 18.  So if Eagle rank app is a requirement, then those scouts have aged out and it's too late.
• Inconsistent requirements / documentation
  • The Eagle rank application now only has six requirements.  EBOR is not listed as a requirement.
    • Surprising as like I was caught that #2 now includes Eagle rank app, the rank application itself doesn't list the EBOR as a requirement.  
  • BSA rank says #7 EBOR  as "requirement" https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Eagle_Rank_Requirements_2018.pdf
  • BSA Eagle application only has 6 requirements.    https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-728_WB_fillable.pdf
• "Between 6 & 7" is a callout; not a requirement.  It's listed before #7 (EBOR) and it's definitely not part of #6 (SMC)  
• Intention ... BSA rank application is more consistent with intention as EBOR is not in the control of the scout and often can't get it done before they turn 18.
  • Eagle rank requirements don't include the Eagle app, but you can't earn Eagle without it.  I say this as all Eagle rank requirements need to be completed before the scout turns 18.  

... now this is a fun discussion ... 

Application clearly has Requirement 7.  Look at the end of the form...

I think we both agree this is a muddled and poorly designed process, rife with opportunity for improvement.

But, my best advice to Eagle Candidates is "Read and complete the requirements!"  as this drives them to do the application to get references and Statement...

BTW, did you know Scoutbook will generate a pdf for your Scout, complete with all dates already filled in?  They have to tweak it to add references, but it is still a huge time and headache saver.

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Eagle app is not a requirement,

It is...

2. "...List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application..."

Between 6 & 7...

"In preparation for your board of review, prepare and attach to your Eagle Scout Rank Application a statement of your ambitions and life purpose ..."

Although, I'd be the first to support articulating more clearly as a requirement.

To my Brother Scouters and Guides:

Cecil Rhodes said at the end of his life (and I, in my turn, feel the truth of it), "So much to do and so little time to do it." No one can hope to see the consummation, as well as the start, of a big venture within the short span of one life-time.

I have had an extraordinary experience in seeing the development of Scouting from its beginning up to its present stage. But there is a vast job before it. The Movement is only now getting into its stride. (When I speak of Scouting I include in it Guiding also.) The one part which I can claim as mine towards promoting the Movement is that I have been lucky enough to find you men and women to form a group of the right stamp who can be relied upon to carry it on to its goal. You will do well to keep your eyes open, in your turn, for worthy successors to who you can, with confidence, hand on the torch. Don't let it become a salaried organization: keep it a voluntary movement of patriotic service.

The Movement has already, in the comparatively short period of its existence, established itself onto a wide and so strong a footing as to show most encouraging promise of what may be possible to it in the coming years. Its aim is to produce healthy, happy, helpful citizens, of both sexes, to eradicate the prevailing narrow self-interest; personal, political, sectarian and national, and to substitute for it a broader spirit of self-sacrifice and service in the cause of humanity; and thus to develop mutual goodwill and cooperation not only within our own country but abroad, between all countries. Experience shows that this consummation is no idle or fantastic dream, but is a practicable possibility - if we work for it; and it means, when attained, peace, prosperity and happiness for all. The "encouraging promise" lies in the fact that the hundreds of thousands of boys and girls who are learning our ideals today will be the fathers and mothers of millions in the near future, in whom they will in turn inculcate the same ideals - provided that these are really and unmistakably impressed upon them by the leaders of today.

Therefore you, who are Scouters and Guiders, are not only doing a great work for your neighbor's children, but are also helping in practical fashion to bring to pass God's Kingdom of peace and goodwill upon earth. So, from my heart, I wish you God-speed in your effort.

Baden-Powell

Not mistrust...

For an old man, you do jump a lot... to conclusions, that is.

I find that the individual counselors do a much better job of guiding Scouts as they fulfill the requirements.

Your average 15-year old teaching a bunch of Scouts at summer camp??? Not so much...  A whole heck of a lot of pencil-whipping going on.

But hey, that's what parents are paying for, right?  Wink, wink, nudge, nudge...

1 hour ago, SiouxRanger said:

So, how about a YPT Certificate rule that provides, that if you take YPT Training Sept through Dec, you are good for 2 years PLUS, that is, through the second recharter of your unit. (Again, assuming a 12-31-YYYY recharter date.) No volunteer will have their YPT Certificate expire DURING their term of service with their unit.  (And Councils that recharter on other month ends, can adjust accordingly.)

Free thinkers will be ridiculed, ostracized, and banned!  Report to your council service center immediately for rejection processing.  If you really wish to push your idea, submit it in writing with higher denominations of currency, and we'll provide further rejection.

Just now, fred8033 said:

There is some flexibility for units.  Very similar to the BOR discussion in this thread.  Units can correct for clearly unearned badges. 

My point is it is absolutely wrong to think / treat the unit leader signatures as approving the badge.  That is absolutely not the point of the unit leader signing the badge.  Heck, even if the unit leader signs, you could apply the above GTA 7.0.4.7.  

The point is:  The MBC approves the badge; not the unit leader.

Agreed, but I do see it as my job as a Unit Leader to ask the Scout some questions to determine if they actually completed the badge.

Not a retest, but a confirmation of completing the requirements as written.

This is the dirty underbelly of Scouting, IMHO...  If you peel the onion back, I'd bet you find many, many badges are not completed according to the requirements... especially those acquired at Summer Camps.

I have gotten to the point that I do not really peel the onion back, but just ask the questions to provoke thought in the Scout about his personal integrity.