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Posts posted by InquisitiveScouter

  1. 15 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

    This includes two decades of extreme dispute over membership standards, ten years of high-profile civil litigation against BSA councils over youth abuse, formation of a competitor organization that presents an ongoing public relations and membership campaign targeted to discourage boys and men from joining the BSA, departure of our largest national chartered organization (and disgruntlement of some other national chartered organizations) and a multi-year existential youth abuse bankruptcy and public relations crises focused on sexual abuse claims from 85,000 former boy members.  Pile on top of that bankruptcy-related sales of many of our camps, generalized distrust by today’s parents of organized youth activities, more-effective competition from youth sports and two years of a worldwide pandemic that shut-down much of our operations for an extended period. 

    Character matters 😜


    • Upvote 1
  2. 57 minutes ago, SSScout said:

    "It depends".

    Schedule several practice  camps  for your slid together Troop.  The Scouts probably won't know each other to begin with.  Work with your SM.  This is a NEW Troop at a NEW  Jamboree, since COVID etc.   Scout led.  EXPECT alot from your Scouts, they will not disappoint you. 

    Your tents will be given you, your cot will be given you, you will still be living out of a duffle . I would think no real room for a trunk. .  

    Walk everywhere.  Get your hiking shoes worked in.  Rain shoes, serious hiking boots....  Summit is just that, up and down, alot.    Rain gear.  Door mat for outside the tent.  Maybe a campchair or old beach chair or two.   Paper plates, duct tape, markers for signage.  Make sure what Camp Gate they will allow you to make and set up.  Some Troops brought spectacular scenic gates, some more modest, lash together.   There are NO TREES to cut down, bring your own lash ups.   Read the manuals about what they plan/allow for cooking/sanitation, etc.    cellphones?  Handhelds?   Read the guidelines ("aye, they be more like...")  Plugs will be at a premium, "Yeah, I'm up to 68 percent"..... unless things have changed alot....  

    Do not allow your Scouts to sit around reading tiktok.      Make sure they have a daily connection with the events.  Teach them how important it is to DEPEND on each other.   Scavenger hunt?  Patch for awards?  Security in your campsite needs consideration.  Despite the Scout Promise and Law,  it isa GOOD idea to have someone in your campsite  AWAKE   at all times...... 

    Thirteenth  Scout Law?   Be careful of  food laying around, in tents.  Still might be critters around....

    Have fun.  Keep it Scouty....  


    All good advice!

    If you choose to participate in some activities, plan on waiting in line for some of the most popular ones (ala Disney).  Bring something to occupy your time while waiting (or make friends and chat!)

    Get two portable batteries for your cell phone.  Fully charged before departure.  (Make sure you have a charging cord to connect portable battery to phone, and a spare cord, too!  Would be best if all your connections used the same type cord... make that investment.)

    Take lots of pictures.

    Camp security is no joke... A Scout is Trustworthy.  50,000 ARE NOT!  I have had items stolen at Jamboree.  

    Make sure you know what the emergency plan is, and where to get to for lightning (or other) safety. 

    Have a blast!


    • Upvote 1
  3. 1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    And the SE can do whatever they want. Overrule  the elected lodge officers, overrule the lodge membership voting results, move designated funds from whatever the lodge and/or chapter designated them for to the general operating fund, remove advisers who question them, etc.

    I would say MUCH worse.

    I have seen all the above...

    Years ago, in the dim ages.... we had an SE that directed the OA lodge to staff and run a council camporee, on pretty short notice.  The LEC discussed it, voted on it, and decided no, we cannot do that.

    SE said, (paraphrasing)  Look at at the glossary of names in your OA Handbook.  See the one that says "Netami Gegeyjumhet"?  That means Supreme Chief of the Fire.  That's me. And, you must always remember, the Supreme Chief of the Fire can put the fire out!"

    We staffed the camporee... and it was pretty good, too 😜



    Within the council, the Scout executive is the final authority over the Order of the Arrow and, for this reason, holds the title of Supreme Chief of the Fire. It is the Scout executive’s job to see that the lodge adheres to national policy. Each year the Scout executive appoints an adult volunteer to serve as the lodge adviser. As Deputy Supreme Chief of the Fire, the lodge adviser acts on behalf of the Scout executive in guiding the day-to-day affairs of the lodge. This person normally serves as a member of the council’s camping or program committee and is frequently selected to serve on the council executive board. In some councils, the Scout executive serves as the lodge staff adviser, but in most cases appoints a member of the professional staff to that position. The staff adviser, as Chief of the Fire, acts on behalf of the Scout executive in giving guidance to the lodge adviser and the lodge leadership. With support and counsel from the Scout executive, it is the staff adviser's role to see that the lodge adheres to national policy.

  4. On 1/17/2023 at 3:28 AM, GrammaScout said:

     First off:  it is NOT the Church's money !! 

    LOL, yes it is 😜  Technically, only "entities" can "own" property, including money.  Unless you incorporate your unit, it cannot "own" anything.  If our COR ever wants a financial statement, we would subtract out of the bank account balance any monies paid by Scouts or parents into Scout accounts.  Any monies fundraised belong to the COR.  All property and gear belong to the COR.

    Now, they cannot just "take" your funds and put it in their general account.  If your unit has a bank account, only the signatories on that account can dispose of the funds. 

    If our COR demanded our cash, we would pay back all monies deposited by parents and Scouts, and equally distribute all remaining monies and pay tuition for Summer Camp (which should just about wipe out the fund), and start looking for a new COR that we'd go to after Summer Camp.  Since the monies are used for the purposes of Scouting, they'd have no recourse...


    19 hours ago, fred8033 said:

    I'd avoid talking too much about who's money it is or who owns what.  Getting a clean "legal" answer is not what you need and you might not like the answer. 

    Avoiding a question does not answer it...  See answer above...


    On 1/17/2023 at 3:28 AM, GrammaScout said:

    the thought being that there would be people voting on something about which they knew nothing....making them ineligible voters

     Sounds like most of the voters in our country 😜

    • Upvote 1
  5. You will not find a clear cut answer to the question.  And the question is really, "When does the Cub Scout program end?"

    Here are various answers you could find supporting arguments for in the literature:

    A.  11 Years old.  The reasoning is this:  There are three criteria for joining Scouts (you must meet one to join): " 1)  ...at least 10 years old, currently in the fifth grade and register on or after March 1st:  2) OR have earned the Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old,  3) OR are age 11 but have not reached age 18."   Although the criteria do not specifically say it, you could interpret the intent that 11 year olds (who were never in Cubs) get vectored to Scouts.    https://www.scouting.org/about/faq/question1/   

    Couple with that the verbiage from Guide to Advancement, "In situations like those found in home-schooling or nontraditional education, where youth are working at grade levels that may not correspond to their ages, Cub Scouts should work on the rank that relates to their age, rather than their grade. When doing so, take the joining requirements for Scouts BSA into consideration to avoid completing the Arrow of Light too long before meeting the minimum age requirement for Scouts BSA. Cub Scouts do not “go back” and work on ranks designed for earlier grade levels, even if missed due to their time of joining. Likewise, Cub Scouts do not “move ahead” to work on the next rank until the completion of the current school year (or until their next birthday if they are transitioning by age), with the exception of those who earned the Webelos rank in the fourth grade." https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf  

    B.  February-ish.  Chart from BSA site at https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/CubScoutMeetingGuide/PDF/Appendix/511-807.pdf  says "Fifth-grade Webelos Scouts graduate in February and begin meeting with a Troop in March."

    C.  01 June.  Same chart above shows the program year beginning in June. So you could make the argument to extend to that...

    D.  Cubs Scouts ends a the end of fifth grade.  See chart at https://pdscouting.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Required-Adventures-Chart-for-Ranks.pdf  Program upper limit is fifth grade.  this also aligns with criteria above.  Also aligns with Scout joining criteria in A.

    C.  31 August.  One chart, still available from BSA at https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/26-004.pdf  shows the Cub program year beginning on 01 September.  Probably the weakest argument...

    The saddest issue here is "I have a parent who really wants his son to earn the AOL."  Too much to unpack here...

    The heart of the requirements issue is how to meet the requirement for participation:  "1. Be an active member of your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old."    If the Webelos den does not exist after crossover, with whom will the young man participate??  He could accomplish this (I suppose) in a few ways:  1.  Council allows him to register as Lone Cub Scout, and parent handles it all... 2.  Parent registers as a WDL, and handles it all (because parents cannot sign off requirements for AOL), including perhaps taking him to one last year of Webelos resident camp with another unit, and then the Scout fleets up to BSA after six months is done. 3. Have him work on his own requirements while hanging with the rising AOL den until complete.






  6. 22 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

    In the Volenteer esentials that each council releases each year, they have had pretty consistent language from their national group. The language is much clearer.

    "For this reason, councils are encouraged to avoid joint recruiting and/or joint participation in community events or activities."

    "we must ensure that we take care that the activities in which girls participate are exclusive to the Girl Scout program"



    Nuanced doublespeak...

    "encouraged to avoid ... joint participation in community events or activities"  You could interpret that to mean Girl Scouts are "encouraged to avoid" placing flags on veterans graves because BSA units are there doing it at the same time.... hogwash

    Or, you could interpret that to mean Girl Scouts are "encouraged to avoid" walking in the Memorial Day Parade because BSA units are doing the same.

    ("Encouraged to avoid" is too slippery,,, just say "prohibited" or "shall not")

    Same interpretation applies to "...exclusive to the Girl Scout program"

    I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts, most GSUSA units are completely ignoring this, just as they are in our neck of the woods.

    It would be more clearly understood if the GSUSA put out guidance to say GSUSA units are not to participate in events "sponsored" by the BSA.... ala District or Council events, National Jamborees, HABs, etc.

  7. 3 minutes ago, qwazse said:

    GS/USA tried to impose these strictures at a regional and council level in response to the advent of Scouts BSA. Memos regarding multi-organization activities began to be circulated. E.g., from https://www.gssne.org/content/dam/girlscouts-gssne/documents/GirlScout_Participation_in Activities_with_Other_Scouting_Organizations.pdf …

    I believe language of the sort made it into some troop training materials. (I say “some” because I suspect many trainers knew their audience was more focused on policies that helped their girls grow strong and good, and would not countenance time wasted on admonitions to protect a corporate brand.) In light of GS/USA backing away from trademark litigation this past July, one would hope that an encouragement to “play nice,” with other scouting organizations will also be disseminated. But, I won’t hold my breath, @InquisitiveScouter, for you to post such a memo from your GS/USA council.

    Thanks, but the memo cited only outlines risks.  It prohibits no interactions.

  8. 52 minutes ago, qwazse said:

    @InquisitiveScouter, I once commented on discussions.scouting,org (back when they let us actually talk about administration and not just scoutbook) that an SPL in a small troop is superfluous. Boy, did I get raked! I couldn’t have drawn more fire if I spouted off about politics or religion.

    So, just accept that it is not so much a PoR as it is a cult for a small troop.

    Concur.  And your thoughts on COR guiding this, versus SM?

  9. To be clear... how many Scouts are in the unit?

    I am wanting to assume from the OP that there are 8 Scouts, which begs the question of why you have an SPL position.

    As for the issue at hand, get the Scouts together, define the problem, and guide them through working it out.

    And this is not a COR issue.... this is an SM issue.   Unless the SM is recusing because one of the Scouts is his son?  Even if that is so, I'd say the next stuckee is an ASM (do you have one?)

    More information, please...

  10. 19 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

    The trappings and ceremonial movement are very close to those of another ancient and respected organization and my fellow travelers know exactly what I am talking about.  If those specific things were removed there would be no Order of the Arrow. 

    No need to remove ceremonial inductions, signs, symbols, or watchwords...

    All those may be observed and preserved :)

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  11. 34 minutes ago, qwazse said:

    So, to avoid any and all sense of indigenous appropriation, should the name be changed to Order of the Flintlock?

    Peoples all over the world have used arrows and archers as a symbol.

    English Longbowmen (Robin Hood)  (William Tell actually used a crossbow, and he was Swiss)

    Odysseus (Ulysses)

    etc. etc.





  12. 1 hour ago, MikeS72 said:

    if Goodman and Edson were still around, I do not think they would be offended by seeing a ceremony conducted in uniform.

    The first ones were in black robes.

    Here's a pic from the birth of my home lodge:



    You could easily ditch the headdresses.  And you do not need a fictional story of Native Americans to promulgate ideas about Brotherhood, Cheerfulness, and Service.

    You could easily find stories to demonstrate these during the Colonial period, or during the American Revolution, or the westward expansion, etc.  It should not be offensive to find and tell a story from some native tribes to demonstrate these principles, either.  They need not be from your area particularly, since you are ditching the wearing of clothing to mimic.

    Or, if a lodge wanted to incorporate stories from their local first peoples, there's plenty... 574 recognized tribes in the US.


    P.S.  Gotta love the ties!!

    P.P.S.  Also see https://oa-bsa.org/history/first-ceremony

  13. 1 minute ago, mrjohns2 said:

    It is an awesome achievement. It is one of the most outing Scouting award. Many parts of eagle are booksmart, NMOA is outdoor-smart. You really have to put in the hours / miles. Nice work! 

    Yes, he has become quite the Outdoorsman!

    And I do like this award.  I would put the level of difficulty above Eagle Scout.

    • Upvote 1
  14. 4 minutes ago, Leehoden said:

    We have had several scouts earn this. It is now a center with rockers around it. You can earn gold bars if you earn a certain amount more time in each area. 


    @Leehoden, that is the National Outdoor Achievement Award (NOAA).  That is something different.  Several NOAAs are required for National Medal for Outdoor Achievement. (NMOA)

    Look for the medal requirements in Scoutbook.

    or here:


    • Upvote 1
  15. I had to call an old friend who works the store in another council.  She found one for my son.

    eBay will probably be best source going forward.  My gut says, since so few have earned the award, I think they may either discontinue it, or have only one source at National.

  16. 9 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

    Right......try to revoke the membership of someone who is gay!!!! Also, the BSA has openly stated that they do not own the local councils, and each council is autonomous with their own board of directors.  Cant have it both ways.

    uh, James Dale... BSA vs Dale

    They DID revoke his membership because he is gay.

    And that Supreme Court decision still stands.  BSA may have changed their policy, but the right for a private organization to define its membership standards is law.


    • Upvote 2
  17. 2 hours ago, Leehoden said:

    I am looking for advice of how other Troops keep track of outings that don't involve camping or hiking? I have tried using scoutbook calendar, but it is very cumbersome, but if it would work well I would do it more. Maybe others have had better experiences or I haven't found the shortcuts? If you log it in scoutbook  can you see it again, through any reports etc? I struggle with keeping track of water minutes, biking miles, etc for the national outdoor awards etc.


    Thanks for your input 

    You are correct...

    The system is not currently designed to keep track of Riding miles nor Aquatics hours, each of which are counted for the National Outdoor Achievement Award (NOAA).

    I helped my Eagle Scout keep track of his in Scoutbook.   Specifically, under the basic award for each NOAA, there is a comment which contains a log of all activities related to that award.

    Sorta looks like this:

    - 150 miles Horseback riding and Cycling during Cub Scout activities ( from Cub Scout records kept)

    -  30 miles - ATV Program, Summer Camp - 17 Jul 2017 
    -  10 miles - Cycling - Beach Camping, 18 May 2018
    -  10 miles - Mountain Biking, XXXX State Park , 12 Nov 2018
    = 200 miles to date (meet 200 miles requirement for basic award)

    -  22 miles - Canal Path Day Trip, 10 Apr 2019
    -  35 miles - Cycling, Scout Camp, 15 Jul 2019
    -  11 miles - Cycling, Town Halloween Bike Ride, 25 Oct 2019
    -  60 miles - Cycling Trek, Aug 2020
    = 328 total to date (meets +100 miles requirement for 1st gold device)

    etc, etc, etc.

    Indulge me a Dad Brag??  My son just finished Wilderness First Aid over the holiday period --- the last requirement for him to earn his National Medal for Outdoor Achievement

    National Medal for Outdoor Achievement


    This is system is very cumbersome, but the burden, currently, is on the Scout to keep track of his activities, other than those actually recorded in Internet Advancement (miles, nights, service hours...)


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