InquisitiveScouter

The question was directed at @swilliams

LOL, yes, DVOA is the Delaware Valley Orienteering Association.  (context?  no orangutans mentioned... orienteering was the subject answered... Google DVOA and orienteering and voila...)

https://www.dvoa.org/

They create orienteering maps for many state parks and public areas around the Delaware Valley.  They also sponsor orienteering events in the area.

Although I have never met anyone from DVOA, we have used their products extensively.  So, @swilliams, if you are a DVOA member, THANK YOU!

Here is a sampling of some of their publicly available maps:

http://elibrary.dcnr.pa.gov/GetDocument?docId=3559452&DocName=HICK_Orienteering.pdf

https://www.dvoa.org/learn/perm/French-Creek-Hopewell-OPC_2015.pdf

https://www.dvoa.org/learn/perm/Fort-Washington-OPC_2020.pdf

Enjoy!

Aren't those old geezers handsome!

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/02/15/scouters-in-action-they-saved-the-drowning-man-from-the-rip-current/

19 hours ago, Delphinus said:

My guess is the first guy who earned $192K left, there was a gap and hence no compensation, and then James Parnell started in mid-year 2020. Still, $192K seems like an INSANELY high level of compensation for a Council Executive. Many of the high-level GS jobs and contractor jobs in the Tidewater Council area, those that require a LOT of military experience, a Top Secret/SCI security clearance, and Masters degrees, don't pay anywhere close to that much. It still makes me wonder why a guy earning that much has the audacity to come to the Packs and beg parents, most of whom don't earn anywhere close to that much, to donate more money over and above their fees and all the time spent selling popcorn.

BTW, How do you find those links/files!?

Go to the IRS Tax Exempt Organization Search page at

https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/

Enter the criteria you want for a search.  If you know the EIN, that is easiest, as all councils do not use the same naming convention, so the search may not return good results by name.  (Tidewater's EIN is 54-0505875 )

Charity Navigator has a better search engine, IMO

https://www.charitynavigator.org/

P.S.  Tidewater also has a separate Trust Fund, EIN 54-1707488

Fair warning, the more you know and share, the greater you become PNG to your council

16 minutes ago, swilliams said:

Last year I spent a ridiculous amount of time making an orienteering map, then spent about $130 on a starter pack of control flags, race cards, and card punches.  It was a HUGE success.  The scouts loved being sent off into the woods alone.  The race/contest aspect was secondary.  I did have parents stationed at a few of the controls, we had water/Gatorade at one, and I was in roughly the center of the course with a full first-aid kit.  

The scouts have asked to do it again, so I'm working on a second map.  The best part is that it takes a LOT of mapping in the field, so I have an excuse to get outside and wander around the forest.  If any of you out there are in the area of the Watchung Reservation in NJ and want to use the first map, I would be more than happy to send you the map electronically.  It prints out to 11"X14".  You would have to supply your own course materials, but you can mark the control points with anything, really, then just come up with a way for scouts to mark that they visited each individual station.  If you have enough parents (10), they could man each point.

You a member of DVOA??

3 minutes ago, Ojoman said:

Today it is not unusual for a Council Scout Exec to be compensated (benefits & salary) at a quarter of a million or more. A really great SE is worth that and more. A board that invests that much in a council exec should expect performance. I have worked for both great council execs and for really bad ones. Councils that consistently lose membership, merge districts, cut staff and run in the red or constantly raise less money year after year probably have a leadership problem. Councils that hold their own in difficult times and grow and rise to the challenges probably have solid leadership. The field execs generally work longer hours than their compensation would reflect and where there is poor leadership they tend to 'get out' and go where they will be properly compensated and appreciated. There will always be those in the profession that are highly competent and committed to the programs and mission and councils are blessed to have them at any level. Scouting needs solid, competent and dedicated professionals. Support the good and great ones and don't tolerate incompetent ones. 

Agreed, but having the job be more competitive, by allowing an "outsider" to be considered for the job could only expand our pool of talent.

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

We were told by some executive board  members that after they fired the SE for running the council into the ground (just looked at the financials and HOW could the exec board not realize the SE was ruining the council when it was went into the red over $1 million over a 4 year period), that they could look for folks with outside experience for the SE. Do not know how true that was as the current SE is a lifelong professional.

 

You are correct, National gives the exec board a slate of candidates that they interview and pick. Although see above. I know when my council went thru this process, and I discovered someone I worked with was on the list, I wrote a detailed letter about the individual, and had a 90 minute meeting with the head of the selection committee. They were not selected. 

I know a wonderful woman in our area who absolutely loves Scouting.  She has four kids in the program right now.  She is from the area and is well connected in many circles in our community.  She knows what Scouting has done for our community, and knows many of the volunteers who live here (and who also have been involved with Scouting for a billion years). She has been on the board of three other local 501C3's in our community who have had a significant impact in environmental and heritage preservation, wild animal rehabilitation and community education (about the animals), and a women's shelter.  She has run successful capital campaigns for all three organizations.  She has many other qualities which would make her an excellent CEO.  Would she ever be considered?  I do not believe so.  Not part of "the club."

16 hours ago, MacBrave said:

A link to the PDF that was used to present this new "Adventure Fee" to CAC volunteers at last week's district roundtables is here:https://crossroadsbsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/PP.pdf?vgo_ee=PEyTUlc0mr504drzrLyWRWVLY1pGRWb2%2B0FTX4hhTec%3D

 

And as a long time volunteer in the Crossroads of America Council at both the Pack and Troop level I do not approve of this fee.

 

My word... look at slide 9, "If a Scout separates from Scouting and wants to return later, does he or she have to pay the Joining Fee again?"  YES????!!!

Their Joining Fee is simply a flat fee combining the BSA Joining Fee and the BSA Annual Registration Costs.  National has no such rule in place (that I know of), so why would the council do it?  If Jimmy takes a year off from Scouting and comes back, our local registrar does not hit them with National's Joining Fee again...  His old record is still in the system.

11 hours ago, Armymutt said:

Quite a jump between the SE and the deputy.

This is why many hang on tightly until they get the golden ticket SE position.  Also, why the professional corps created a system where there is no hiring of "outsiders."

Is an experienced executive or CEO of say, another youth organization, or a Y, even allowed to put in a resume for an opening in a BSA Council SE position?  No way... National gives the council board a slate of candidates from which to pick their next CEO.  IMO, that is bad for business...

So, who is really choosing your next SE?

13 hours ago, topshot said:

I am curious how many councils have moved to the subscription model and how much they charge each month. Ours just announced they will be moving to that next year and it's not going over well (~300% increase). They claim there are others that do this.

Ours has not announced anything like that yet.

There is a "mandate" out there that annual council service fees cannot exceed National membership fee.  See page three.  https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Rules_Regulations_Sept20.pdf

Note that is the 2020 version.  If there was a subsequent revision that removed the fee stipulation, councils may be moving in a direction where they charge more than National.  

Is there a more connected guru out there who can find an updated Rules, or confirm the one linked above is current?

And, perhaps the councils are justifying this by saying the "service fee" and the "activity fee"  are combined to make the "subscription fee". 

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Only name I see on the 2020 990 form is JAMES PARNELL who was paid $104K.   Honestly not too bad compared to most councils I have seen.

For Tidewater Council, my guess is, Parnell was named in 2019, but did not start until sometime later in 2020.  Expect salary to be above $192K, which is what the previous guy got.

You really want to find out? Call your council office and ask to see their IRS Form 990 for 2021, and 2022 (if filed).

They are required, by law, to allow you access to this information.  They do not have to provide you a copy, but they must allow you to see this in their office during normal business hours.

If they refuse, please report them to your local Congressional Representative, and the IRS.  Please!!

1 hour ago, SiouxRanger said:

I find it difficult to subsidize the income of someone whose income exceeds mine and whose performance is less than mine.  Someone I'd never hire.

You, my friend, are a kindred soul!

2 hours ago, Delphinus said:

I wonder how much the Tidewater Council executives get paid? I don't know if they're full-time equivalent employees , but it certainly gives incentives for them to show up to the pack Blue & Gold events every year, highjack the meetings for 40 minutes, and high-pressure the parents to donate money and achieve donation goals. 

See page 17. they reported $0 for 2019

I find that very odd...

https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/540505875_201912_990_2020112017429593.pdf

In 2018, a different guy got paid $192K.  See page 18 at

https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/540505875_201812_990_2019091616653396.pdf

And here's their Trust Fund report in 2019

https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/541707488_201912_990_2020091417296410.pdf

Enjoy!

(Hey, now you know why I am blacklisted in our council!  For sharing public information!)

We call it "Sniffing Spiders!!"

Kids love this trick.  Put a strong flashlight up next to your eye, pointing out to the ground.  Scan slowly until you see a very small green, red, or purple light.  Hold the light next to your eye steadily, and slowly move towards where the reflected colored light, keeping the flashlight shining on it so you can see the colored light coming back at you.  Follow it all the way to the ground, and you will find a spider!

Don't let on anything about the light at first... play it up that you have a special talent... you can smell spiders!  Show them the first one or two, and then reveal the secret.  

If it is warm enough where you live, this is easy.  Of, course, tell Scouts not to catch or handle the spiders

Fair warning!  Teach with discretion 😜 If you don't like spiders, you will get creeped out because they are EVERYWHERE! 

When there is a heavy dew, this becomes much more difficult, as dew drops can reflect colors back as well.

https://thehappyscientist.com/content/spider-spotting#

When they learn this, even the adults have fun with it!

Enjoy!

1 minute ago, Jameson76 said:

We are at close to $650K for our SE (sorry CEO) for salary and benefits.  For the top 5 staff it is north of $1.6MM

Over 1/3 of the council staff is development (fundraising), marketing (figuring out how to fundraise), program management (running fundraisers)

@Jameson76, would you be able to do the job?  And, if yes (or no), how much would you like to be paid (or think they should be)?  (I'm just curious, and not trying to be a joker...)

I know I could.  And I'd do it for about $150K, in our local area.  However, I use a lower number because I also receive a pension from another type of service organization 😜

At that combined income, our family would be in the top 10% of household incomes in the US.  (Where those salaries already place our SE's.)

Actually, tell the Scout to download the pdf and make the corrections himself...

I have just finished round 5 of working with an Eagle candidate to get his paperwork correct.

About round 2, his parent implied I could just make the corrections myself.

Yes, I could, but, no, I would not...  

Scout will be bringing his form to the meeting tonight to get Scoutmaster and Committee Chair signatures, then he will deliver it himself to Scout office tomorrow!

@qwazse is right on.  You may help and guide them, but do not do it for them.

BTW, a handwritten application is fine!!!

On 2/10/2023 at 7:59 PM, Eagle_Chris said:

We had an Eagle application sent back from National because the Scout had a merit badge earned before their BSA join date (when he was a AOL/Cub Scout).

His parents explained a SM/ASM told them it was OK (it was not).  We had to invalidate the merit badge and resubmit his application.

Luckily he had more than the minimum #, as he was 18.

I would recommend waiting to ensure everything is 100%.

Your registrar should have caught that!  We had a situation like that when I first came to this Troop.  Luckily, based on previous experience with the same issue (caught by the registrar the previous council), I found it and was able to help correct.  Here's one way a situation like that happens (it's what happened here...):

- Scout joined Troop in June, just as school was getting out.  Troop leader had the parent-signed application, but did not submit it to council (sat on it.) Scout went on outings and to Summer Camp with the Troop (where he earned merit badges).  Troop leader did not sign and submit application to council until after the summer was over (in September).  Registrar entered Date Joined Scouting as in September.  Also in September, they submitted an Advancement Report from Summer Camp, with Scout's name and badges.  Registrar entered advancement as recorded on the form.  I believe there were no internal checks in the software to flag these dates.  (The problem to identify was that a Scout had earned advancement before his joining date... that's a no-no.)   Troop was using TroopMaster at the time.  After that, Troop transitioned to Scoutbook, and began to use system generated-forms with all dates automatically input.  (Scoutbook also does not flag these kinds of errors.)  We generated this Scout's Eagle Application, and, as I was reviewing it with him, I saw the error.  To correct, we had the registrar pull his original application and correct his Joined Date to the date his parent signed the application. Then we generated a new Eagle Application with the corrected dates.  Our Registrar told me she could do this because there was "intent to join" at that June date (as per parent signature), and they were not going to hold up the Scout because an adult leader sat on an application.  (If parent and leader signature dates had both been September, the Scout would not have been "eligible" to earn the badges at camp.)

Those controls could be programmed into Scoutbook, I think.  Or into the form itself  (but I don't know that much about pdfs and whether internal checks like that can be coded into them.)

Much of the Registrar's job has been automated.  And I believe much more is in the works to be automated. This will help with council consolidations, as members will not have to travel to the council office to file paperwork.

One thing is filing Eagle Applications electronically...  I see no reason (other than coding) that we could not do logic checks and electronic signatures on a form in Scoutbook and have it automatically submitted to "National Registrar" after EBoR approval.

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

The council vetting has continued to improve.  At this point, I'm not sure national even does a review beyond what is done at the council level.  In fact, is the council level check done by a registrar, who is a national employee and makes it effectively a national check?  If a scout is cleared for an EBOR, pretty much all the national checks have been done.  There is very, very, very little that would block the scout.

I would agree.  I think we have reached the time when, as soon as an EBoR is done, that Scout is an Eagle Scout.

What, if anything is preventing us from making this so?  Or, what would it take to get us there?  Only the stroke of a pen (or a few strokes on a keyboard), I think...

I would love to see a a statistic on the number of Eagle applications National has returned with questions or errors.  They have to have this data.

55 minutes ago, Delphinus said:

Yikes! Why are the fees, particularly the Council fee, skyrocketing so much!? What added value are the Scouts and their families getting for that tremendous increase. All the Pack and Den leaders, the adult volunteers who actually do all of the work, are UNPAID. Where is all that extra money going? If they do that here, we'll probably drop out. We can easily afford it, but when I do a cost/benefit analysis, the value just isn't there to justify paying that much more. Our son has plenty of other extracurricular activities (sports, bowling, he's start Civil Air Patrol next year when he turns 12, etc...) that we don't need this program if they're going to try gouging us that much. I won't pay it just on principle. We're already seriously considering dropping out once he earns is AOL next month anyway, just because of some of the poor behavior and mistreatment from some of the Cub Scout adult leaders we've experienced the last several months.  

See page 22

https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/350867962_201912_990_2021021817717804.pdf

in 2019, CAC SE received $326K total compensation package.

Show that to the parents there, and see how they react to the fee increases.

LOL

23 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

So I have been seeing a lot of posts on FB with people passing their Eagle Board of Review, and having Eagle neckerchiefs, slides, and in a few cases medals being worn immediately after the EBOR.  Now I am seeing folks either planning their Eagle Court of Honor before their paperwork comes back from National (5 cases), and in the instances last night before their Eagle BOR. Yep, sat on 3 EBORs and their joint ECOH is this Sunday.  In all the cases, the SM was able to purchase the presentation kits. One SM  purchased "replacement" presentation kits because he is an Eagle, and used his credentials to get them.  But the other SM was travelling, saw a scout shop ( I assume council owned as National Scout shops require verification) and got the 3 kits last month.

So is this the new trend, or something just in my area?

Nothing new around here...

The mindset in most units here is that, after the EBoR, the chances of National turning it down is near zero.  And, if they did, there'd be appeals and corrections until the Scout received the award.  So they charge forward, because (I think that they think) waiting takes the joy out of the occasion.

We recognize the achievement in six ways!

1.  When a Scout is Eagle Scout Service Project complete, we make a big deal out of it at a Troop meeting.

2.  When a Scout is "Merit Badge Complete", we make a big deal out of it at a Troop meeting.

3.  In our Troop, we have a big Trail to Eagle board with each giant rank patch on it.  Under each rank are all the nametags of all the Scouts in the unit with that rank.

For our new Scouts, we put their nametag on the board upside down under Scout rank when they join.  When they make Scout rank, they turn it right side up.  At each rank announcement, the Scouts chant "Change the Board!" and the Scout earning his rank comes forward (with a huge smile!!) to receive his patch and move his nametag to the next rank.

When a Scout submits his application for Eagle Scout, we have him Change the Board! and move his nametag under Eagle Scout, but upside down!

4.  After his Eagle BoR is complete, we have him Change the Board! and turn his name right side up, while explaining that he is not yet an Eagle Scout in the eyes of the National Council, as we are awaiting the paperwork processing.

5.  Once his credentials come back, we announce that at the Troop meeting and present his Eagle rank patch (yes, with "Insta-palms"), and explain it is official, he can wear it on his uniform, and that now we get to help him plan for his Eagle Court of Honor.  There is much rejoicing!

6.  The Eagle Court of Honor.

After Eagle BoR, I tell parents the "rules," but also tell them the process normally takes between four and six weeks to get credentials back.  I have seen them return as fast as two weeks, and as slow as ten weeks.  It depends on the workload at National.  I advise them they should pencil in a date no earlier than six weeks from EBoR for Eagle Court of Honor.

We also give them options.  You can have an event here at our CoR facility for free.  If you want some other arrangement, then you will have to make the financial arrangements for that, but you take a risk by putting money down to reserve something without having credentials back.  The Troop does not pay for Eagle CoH decorations or refreshments.  (Some people want a "big wedding."  Others are happy with having it as a part of our normal quarterly Troop Court of Honor.  It all depends on the Scout's (and his mother's) wishes.  (Yes, I said that 😜 )

I tell them we can not present an Eagle patch or medal until we receive the credentials back from National. 

At the ECoH, we present the Eagle Kit, an Eagle Scout Neckerchief, and Eagle Scout Slide. (all gifts from the Troop)  We used to purchase a five year membership in NESA for them, but NESA upped the cost from $35 to $100.  No thanks...

If a Scout wishes to present more than one Mentor Pin, they have to purchase them...  we help with arranging that, if needed.

In handling Eagle this way, our unit is the exception around here.

And yes, our Scout shop will sell you every Eagle kit they have in stock, no questions asked...

They never check for any advancement report or other record before selling Merit Badges or Ranks.  I used to bring in the printed report from Scoutbook, but eventually got the question from them of "why bother?" 

I do not see a Notifications icon or a Messages icon on the mobile.  Only an Unread Content, Create New Topic, and Search.

I've never tried to access PMs from mobile.

I use an Android device, and, on can pull down the browser menu from the top right corner, scroll down and select Desktop Site.  You can see the Messages link there.

5 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Reports from some on Facebook indicate they are almost at 14,500 and have set a limit of 15,000 scouts due to staffing limits.  

Yeah, I would have been happy to donate my time and talent to work at the jamboree.

Just not going to pay $1200 for the privilege. (Plus travel costs to and fro.)

https://jamboree.scouting.org/jamboree-service-team/

LOL, you are right.  I am often the one "breaking news" to our pros and district/council volunteers here based on things I have picked up here.

Thanks for having a place where we can openly and civilly (well, at least attempt to, if you look at other threads) discuss our Scouting program!

21 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

From the item description:

This Cub Scout uniform short-sleeve button down is an option for part of the required official uniform for Tiger, Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts.

 

Since when did a uniform become "required"???

It didn't.  Obviously a misprint or mistake...

5 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Rumor is National Jamboree almost hit their limit 15,000 scouts.  

Wow, are you sure that was their target?

15K seems really low.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2013/08/26/putting-jamboree-attendance-numbers-in-historical-perspective/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Scout_jamboree_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)

"As a Family Life MBC, I help them plan it, and make sure they do it. But I ask for no details."

This is the way!