19 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

Yup. Council is charging $2,900 for Jambo.  

We have a lot of open spaces for jambo in our council.  Wonder why Scouts aren't going? (No, I'm not wondering, really...)

We did a unit camp during 2020 (COVID), when all other Summer Camps in our area shut down.  Eleven adults and thirty Scouts.

We rented a local campground for the week, had parents and leaders as "staff", and (after looking at what a lot of our Scouts needed or wanted) offered three MB programs in the morning including Wilderness Survival, Environmental Science, and Mammal Study.  We were going to do Motorboating, but had some mechanical issues with the boat, so could not.

The actual primary focus, and most of the "heavy lifting" was coordinating Cooking MB requirements.  Scouts camped and cooked by patrols, and the week was divided into three "cooking sessions."  We had six patrols camping, so there were eighteen Scouts who worked on these requirements.  Sessions one (Sunday dinner to Tuesday lunch) and two (Tuesday dinner to Thursday lunch) were to focus on Cooking MB, session three (Thursday dinner to Sat Lunch) was for Scouts who needed cooking requirements for rank.  Scouts submitted menus and shopping lists for all sessions prior to camp.  First session shopped before camp.  Second and third sessions used one afternoon of camp to shop for their sessions.  We had eleven adults attend (not all for the whole time), so for each meal, a different adult went to a patrol as a guest, and to provide the "evaluation" for Cooking MB.  Smashing success!  Scouts enjoyed the challenge.  Adults got to know Scouts better.  Everyone had "skin in the game."

Afternoons were "free time" for Scouts, but adults always "staffed" fishing, canoeing, swimming, or Scout skills (primarily Totin' Chip and Firem'n Chit)  Many worked on building survival shelters to sleep in on Thursday night.  Older Scouts often "hung out" in their hammocks just breezing the time away.  And they loved it.

(Note:  We really didn't do "swimming."  We had an area on the river suitable for getting wet, so we had each Scout wear shoes a life jacket while in the water, and treated it as a boating activity without boats 😜 .  They didn't care.  In fact, I think it made them feel a bit more comfortable in the water.)

Our Friday night closing campfire, we brought out lots of alumni and families, and did a Scout planned campfire with each patrol contributing one skit, one song, and one cheer. We also had two Eagle presentation ceremonies.  (The Eagle families brought individual servings of ice cream and cupcakes for everyone.)  About sixty people total at the campfire.

One afternoon, we did a float trip on the river.

Our older Scouts, most of whom had been to three or more Summer Camps, said this was the best summer camp they had ever had.  I agree 😜

We did all of this, including campground rental, food for all sessions, and supplies, for about $220 per head (original estimate was $300 per head).   By far, the biggest expense was campground rental ($7500).  But this was a special place that really added to the experience.

If we did not have to rent the campground, the cost for food and supplies was, for the entire week, about $65 per person.

One of the ways we saved oodles of money was, at the end of each session, we gathered all food items left over, and each cook for the next session would take items which fit their shopping list, or they'd make a substitution on their menu to use an item left over (A Scout is Thrifty!)  For example, if there were five apples left over, and a Scout had put bananas on his menu, he'd just take the apples as a sub.

Hope this helps with thinking, costing, and planning...

24 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If I had my way, instead of summer camp, we would be doing our own HA trip. Unfortunately not only is my CC pushing MBs and advancement, but that is what the Scouts want as well. Heck the camp we are going to, which is charging $330, suggests having the last period open to take advantage of free shooting, swimming, and boating, and the comment made "you are paying for classes, need to take advantage of them."

When we were looking at camps, most were over $400. Few, if any, of my Scouts could afford them. I suggested a weeklong backpacking trip on the AT,  and was told it would be a wasted summer because they couldn't earn MBs. Same person said while Philmont was great, it was a wasted trip because the Scouts didn't earn any MBs.

Advancement over adventure.  You and I both know they have it backwards.

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

OH MY WORD! Did you see the prices for their summer camp. And that does not include tents or cots, which are extra. My Scouts were interested, until they saw the price tag

My worry is that when all the council mergers start, and camps start being sold, Summit will be the closest option for us. 

On a different note, I wonder what those council camps that are "leased" by councils will do.

The Summer Camp near us (different council) upped their prices $200 per head from 2 years ago when we attended.  A one-third increase.  So, we dropped them from consideration in favor of other councils' camps who did not do the same...

But... see link page 3... the Summit 2022 Summer Camp is about average market price.

https://summitbsa.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Summit-Bechtel-Reserve-Program-Planning-Guide.pdf

38 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

If only all that money BSA poured into the cash sink that is Summit (north of $750 million) was available and had NOT been dumped by the truckload in West Virginia

You mean that Summer Camp on steroids that is competing with all the Summer Camps of the surrounding councils?

15 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Low chance ... even after they burn through their own cash, National BSA can definitely pull money from councils.  Ch7 is a disaster. 

 

But!, but!, but!, I thought councils were independent of National!!??  <sarc>

16 hours ago, RainShine said:

There are many activities my Scouts do outside the troop, hockey, skiing, loads of stuff. If only those coaches were merit badge counselors. Perhaps I could get in touch with them and ask. I always ask the Scouts parents to ask the coach but Ive never gotten a favorable response to that.

Question: if the coach has already done youth protection from some other organization, would that count or does it pretty much have to be the Scouts BSA YP program?

boy, not enough hours in the day... 

One thing I have done is to become an MBC for much of the stuff I can do also, outside of professional or deep hobby interests.

So, although I am no ski instructor or coach, I can do and teach all of the skills for Alpine and Nordic skiing in the Snow Sports Merit Badge.  I do not mess with Snowboarding.  But, if there is a Scout who Snowboards, and they work with an instructor or coach who does know those things, I can have a conversation with the Scout and coach about the requirements and reach a level of satisfaction that the Scout has completed the requirements for the Snowboarding portion.

I have no issue signing off the badge then.

I firmly believe a great part of being an MBC for a particular subject does not mean you know everything about it, but that you have more than a passing knowledge of the subject, and KNOW where to tap into resources to guide the Scout as he completes the requirements, or needs some instruction or guidance to complete the requirements. 

There is no need to recruit a Subject Matter Expert to be the counselor...

10 hours ago, ProScouter06 said:

New Cub Scout uniform is out! New CS uniform

looks good to me! 

Looks like the torso cut is much longer now.  Maybe those shirt tails will get tucked in now??  (Doubt it 😜 )

The restriction (on under 13)  is based on the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA).

"COPPA imposes certain requirements on operators of websites or online services directed to children under 13 years of age, and on operators of other websites or online services that have actual knowledge that they are collecting personal information online from a child under 13 years of age.

https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/rules/childrens-online-privacy-protection-rule-coppa

So they don't have to deal with COPPA, and put in additional coding and controls, the websites simply put on the age restrictions.

The same is true for mail servers, like Google Mail (gmail.)

Like @qwazse, I tell parents that they should create their own accounts for their Scouts to use, but they should monitor the activity to supervise content and conduct.  If they feel their Scout can handle it at 13, then they can help the Scout create her own accounts. 

This also applies to Scoutbook.  A Scout cannot activate their own Scoutbook account until they are invited by their parent with a unique email address, and email servers have to comply with COPPA.

The Scouts should have them, because it is part of learning responsibility in the digital world.  But, we always defer to the prerogative of the parents.  We have a few 14 year old Scouts who get all of their messages, texts, correspondence, etc., through their parents.

28 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

In the case at hand, what is the probability of Chapter 7?

Maybe we can ask Elon Musk to buy BSA!

10 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

In the case at hand, what is the probability of Chapter 7?

That is a question I am certain is circulating the halls in Irving, TX

3 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

Given the lengthy appeals process, what happens to an enterprise like BSA if it runs out of money during a bankruptcy, especially with regards to this settlement??

They either secure loans, donations, sell more assets, etc. (some form of cash infusion),  or file Chapter 7.

One of the best ways Lodges used to serve units was with a Where to Go Camping Booklet (WTGCB).  It was researched and published frequently by the lodge.  My home Lodge did this, and there was even an award at our Conclave for Best WTGCB.

Some lodges still do this service for units.

https://danbeard.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Dan_Beard_Council_Where_to_Go_Camping_Guide_June_2018.pdf

http://www.nisqually155.org/resources/Where_to_Go_Camping_Guide.pdf

https://eswau.net/where-to-go-camping-guide/

Ours does not.

7 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

 If a policeman does not get his required annual training no one is going to say "that's OK, well take care of it."  Instead that officer looses their power to arrest and can't participate actively in his job.  They don't stop being a cop, they just aren't allowed to play in the game.  It's not a good idea for that officer to grab his badge and gun and go on patrol until the issue is corrected.  At that time they become a full fledged officer again and can get back to work. 

Let's take that analogy, and substitute Arrowman back in, and appropriate terms to reverse the analogy...

If an Arrowman does not pay his annual Lodge dues, no one is going to say "that's OK, we'll take care of it." (????) Instead, the Arrowman loses their power to serve their unit and can't actively participate in their unit.  They don't stop being an Arrowman, they just aren't allowed to serve their unit.  It's not a good idea for that Arrowman to grab his sash and go back to serve until the issue [paying his dues] is corrected.  At that time [upon paying his lodge dues] they become a full fledged Arrowman again and can get back to work serving their unit.

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

I think the real issue is why someone who has completed the Ordeal not want to be in good standing. 

No, that isn't the issue.

I know many Arrowmen who are in good standing in their units (the people who honored them with the recognition in the first place), who do not wish to be associated with a lodge.

I am one of them

The purpose of the OA is not to put another rock in a Scout's rucksack.

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

This is only possible if the unit supports the lodge by encouraging active participation. 

LOL, no! 

https://oa-bsa.org/about/organization-structure

Lodges

At the local level, lodges exist to serve BSA councils and individual units. The key leaders in the lodge are the youth lodge chief, volunteer adult lodge adviser, and professional staff adviser. The lodge chief presides over the Lodge Executive Committee, which is responsible for executing the annual program of the lodge. While each lodge is different, the Lodge Executive Committee typically consists of one or more vice chiefs, a secretary, and a treasurer, as well as chapter and/or service area chiefs and operating committee chairmen who are responsible for various aspects of the lodge’s program. Many lodges, especially large ones where additional structure is necessary, have service areas and chapters to chapters. These often align with BSA districts and execute the program of the lodge on a community level.

Units do not exist to support the lodge!  You have it backwards!

This is one key reason that the OA does not fare well.  Many lodges are like big self-licking ice cream cones.  They exist primarily to serve themselves, and that is why many unit leaders do not allow the OA program in their unit! (You do understand that principle of prerogative?) Here, the OA created a Venturing unit just to provide lodge members a place to keep their BSA registrations so they could continue to serve the lodge without being involved with any local units.  The Venturing unit is a "shell corporation."   How do you think the unit leaders in this council view that Crew?

As a leader, I encourage our youth to participate in the lodge, if they wish.  But, they are under no obligation to do so. I also tell them that, if that participation detracts from their service to their unit (i.e., the people who selected them for the honor in the first place), then they have misplaced their priorities.

Your policeman analogy is unintelligible, and does not clarify.

What does a Scout do [with a previous award] if they convert to another faith?

- The Scout may continue wearing the "previous" award at her discretion.

Do they need to do the program over again or can they simply switch the pin to the one corresponding faith they now follow?

- The "program" is different for each faith.  That is, the requirements for a religious award for each faith are different and often have different levels based on age/grade.  If the Scout wishes to earn the award for her new faith, she must complete its requirements (from scratch, so to speak).

- A Scout may not earn an award in one faith and then wear the 'equivalent' award from another faith, as the requirements for each award are different.  That is, having a religious award from one faith does not grant you the "analogous" religious award in another faith.

As stated above, the specific religious awards are not BSA awards.  BSA recognizes the accomplishment when a youth completes the award requirements sponsored by a specific faith.

A recognition of the accomplishment comes in two forms:

1.  A medal (or some other recognition) is awarded by an organization sponsoring the award of that particular faith.  BSA does not procure nor award these "medals"  You must get them from the specific organization/faith to be presented at a ceremony of the Scout's choice.  You can find a list of contacts for those organizations here

https://www.scouting.org/awards/religious-awards/chart/

Many of those awards have links you can follow to view the requirements.  Some even have a downloadable workbook.  YMMV.

2.  Once a Scout earns the particular award, then she is entitled to wear a knot on her uniform signifying the accomplishment (wearing the medal previously awarded might be kinda clunky on the shirt)  The knot for youth is this

https://www.scoutshop.org/youth-religious-award-knot-5007.html

And multiple levels of the award are recognized by device pins, corresponding to the program of Scouting during which the award was earned.  Here is the Scouts, BSA device:

https://www.scoutshop.org/boy-scout-pin-device-927.html

and these are BSA items

Here is some more info explaining the program...

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/11/13/scouts-guide-earning-religious-emblem/

And you can find out how to wear them in the Guide to Awards and Insignia

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Religious_Emblems_WEB.pdf

Finally, any youth/adult may earn these awards.  They do not have to be Scouts.  To wear the BSA knot and devices, you must be a Scout/Scouter.

Hope this answers your questions.

Your thinking is right on this...

And I am VERY glad you have a culture in your unit where this is the case.  (The youth wanting to continue to be part of the program.)

But, there are clear boundaries, as you point out.

What they want is not Venturing.  What they want is Rovering!!

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/rovers.html

Just now, curious_scouter said:

Good info in here, I do like the tips about viewing this as "selection" vs. "election". 

Another thing I'd like to share is around eligibility.  Don't rely exclusively on things like your troop's website for eligibility.  We had a few Scouts who had transferred to our troop in the past year, their camping history was not complete on our website so they were overlooked but eligible.  Caused a bit of a fiasco because the ballots were nicely pre-printed by the elections team based on what an ASM told them from the troop web host report.

Now, I'm having ASMs work to re-compile all camping history into Scoutbook with the hope and idea that it'll make it easier to have a consolidated record and should a youth leave our unit for whatever reason we've done them a potential favor in that the activity follows them on Scoutbook vs. getting stuck on our TWH subscription.

 

With a larger Troop, this does require a bit more scrutiny well before the OA selection.  Our selection night is next week, and the SM Corps has been in discussions about who is eligible.  Ultimately the SM's decision, but he has wisely asked for input from the ASM assigned to each Patrol, and our ASM/OA Troop Advisor

5 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

I'm aware of what Capp said, also aware of the blowback those comments got. It undermined the purpose of the Lodge and forcing Lodges to send $$$ to National, when we could just create our own "camp society" and not operate under the name of Lodge. And, as the moment about NOAC illustrates, National doesn't actually stay in keeping to the Capp comments, as you can't attend a National event (NOAC, or even Arrow Corp, nor OAHA) without paying dues, and you have to do that through a Lodge.

So, to be clear, are you saying that Joey Scout, who is elected by his unit and goes through the Ordeal (having paid the fee and his membership dues in the local Lodge for the year), and becomes an Arrowman, that he ceases to be an Arrowman when his dues lapse next year for the local Lodge?

2 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

I'm aware of what Capp said, also aware of the blowback those comments got. It undermined the purpose of the Lodge and forcing Lodges to send $$$ to National, when we could just create our own "camp society" and not operate under the name of Lodge. And, as the moment about NOAC illustrates, National doesn't actually stay in keeping to the Capp comments, as you can't attend a National event (NOAC, or even Arrow Corp, nor OAHA) without paying dues, and you have to do that through a Lodge.

And yet they have not been removed, nor changed, nor further clarified, in spite of any "blowback."  

And I have no contention with anyone's statements about what the attendance policies or standards are for Lodge, Section, Area (or Service Territory), or National OA events.  Never made any assertions otherwise.

The absolute funny thing is, that I used to be of that mindset, during some of my tenure as Lodge Chief x 2/Vigil Honor (1984)/Ceremonies Team Chief x 6/Unit Elections x 2 /National Leadership Seminar/NOAC, etc etc. .etc But I had a great mentor who had been a Vigil Honor since the 1930's, was instrumental in founding many lodges in the Southeast, knew and worked with E. Urner Goodman, Carroll Edson, and J. Rucker Newbery, and a Lodge Advisor for another 25 years before I came along...

He pointed out the same principles I am pointing out to you.

28 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Only currently registered members of the Boy Scouts of America and the Order may wear the insignia of the Order of the Arrow.

Although I would withdraw my parent example based on this...

Any registered member of BSA who is an Arrowman may wear his insignia.  He is a member of the Order, regardless of lodge affiliation.

23 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

 

The conversation a Lodge Adviser has to have every now and then... Like the BSA, there is no such thing as lifetime membership in the OA. You are a member so long as you pay your membership dues. So no, it isn't exactly appropriate that someone continue to wear a sash if they are not paying their membership dues, the same as it is not appropriate to continue to wear a BSA uniform if you are not paying your annual BSA membership fee. True that an individual only goes through Ordeal once, but one has a continuing effort to be considered a member to wear the sash.

The handbook states "“Only currently registered members of the Boy Scouts of America and the Order may wear the insignia of the Order of the Arrow.” To be a member, you have to pay your Lodge dues, which includes $5.00 that goes to National for your OA membership dues.

 

Your statement is in direct contradiction to that published on the National OA site.

https://oa-bsa.org/article/ask-chairman-can-members-who-are-not-dues-paid-wear-lodge-flap

I'll go by what they say, thanks!

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

Ok, its a pretty simple train to follow:  attend the ordeal, complete the ordeal, remain active by paying dues, attend events, wear Sash.  Or attend the ordeal, complete the ordeal, don't remain active by not paying dues, don't attend lodge events, no Sash. Obviously I did read the post and perhaps you should read the mountains of literature available explaining the purpose and mission of the OA.   In fact it's now impossible to register for an event like NOAC unless you are an active member of your lodge.  Should I continue?

LOL

Yes, you should continue after reading the following:

Let's start with the Purpose and Mission of the OA: https://oa-bsa.org/about/mission-purpose

Mission & Purpose

 Please show me ANY statement in the above that membership requires a Scout to do anything with the Lodge after completing his induction. 😜 

Here's another reference:  https://oa-bsa.org/article/ask-chairman-can-members-who-are-not-dues-paid-wear-lodge-flap

Please note, "An Order of the Arrow member can always wear their sash and the Universal Arrow Ribbon once they have completed the induction. However, wearing a lodge flap indicates that their current dues are paid in the specific lodge that the flap represents. So, if the individual has not paid their dues, they should remove the flap from their uniform."

If you actually bothered to read the "mountains of literature" with intellectual honesty, you could only come to the conclusion that you are mistaken.

And I agree with your statement about NOAC, but that is irrelevant.  I made absolutely no pronouncements about NOAC or any other lodge, section, or National events like that.

OA business includes unit OA elections, where any Arrowman may wear his sash, regardless of his current lodge affiliation.

OA events at Summer Camp would also fit the bill.  OA days, OA Ice Cream Socials, Call-outs at the campfire, etc. etc. etc.  An Arrowman may wear his sash for those events, regardless of his current lodge affiliation.

Parents who are Arrowmen, and no longer affiliated with BSA, but observing the induction of their Scout at an Ordeal may wear their sash while attending, regardless of their current lodge affiliation.

You must make a distinction between being an Arrowman and being a lodge member.  They are two separate statuses.  Once inducted, you are ALWAYS a member of the Order of the Arrow.  Once you let your dues lapse in a lodge, you are no longer a "member in good standing", but retain your status as an Arrowman.  The honor was given by an Arrowman's unit, not by the Lodge.

Please continue, because you said "several" of my original assertions were incorrect.  You have yet to name any that were incorrect.

I'll leave you with two thoughts that apply in the situation:

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest."

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

For example the OA Sash is only worrn at OA events or while conducting OA business.

No one said otherwise.  Read the post... 

9 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

You still may wear your sash at any and all OA observances.

That means events and business...

What other points are incorrect??