InquisitiveScouter

Definitely high numbers...

Our unit is strong.  We have 60+ youth on the roster.  At recharter, we have dropped approximately 10 due to aging out, attrition, and transfer.  We expect to see those added back through Crossovers and recruiting during the year.  We just barely hit our 85% retention rate for JTE Gold.

Agree with @1980Scouter.  Even a "rolling" one or two year average would be more indicative of reality and would flatten out the highs and lows.               

18 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

If falsely accused of YPT abuse, have the CO investigate and exonerate.

Thanks for bringing your story forward.  So many of us are focused on preventing YPT incidents that we sometimes fail to recognize that good adult reputations are brought into question when a person makes unsubstantiated accusations that seem impossible to unwind or dispute.  However, this is not the case.  There is a great way to handle unfounded accusations.

When an allegation is made -- directly or impliedly -- that a volunteer has violated YPT during an incident involving a youth, the matter should always be fully investigated by the BSA and the Chartered Organization (CO).  Involving the CO is the only way to protect our youth members and the reputation of an adult falsely accused.  This is because when the BSA does the investigation by itself, there is no express, written exoneration of an innocent adult.  The BSA process only results in either removal of the accused adult from the program (being added to the ineligible volunteer list) or “no action” being taken.  No written explanation is ever provided.  That “no action” is taken does not equate into express exoneration.

When an adult scout leader observes abuse of a child by another that violates YPT, the observing scout leader is required under state laws to stop the abuse and immediately report the incident to law enforcement.  Next, the Scout Executive and CO must be informed.  Depending on the severity of the circumstance, law enforcement may or may not take action.  Regardless, the BSA and CO are obligated under their own internal policies to investigate and take action (if appropriate).  We are all familiar with the BSA YPT system.  COs also have ethical policies and are required to act to investigate and prevent reported abuse.  Often the CO will defer to the BSA to conduct the investigation and defer to its judgement – but this does not properly protect potentially-innocent adult volunteers.

What any falsely-accused adult should insist on in these types of situations is for the CO to conduct its own investigation of the matter in cooperation with the BSA and issue its own CO written report.  If the allegation is false or simply an unfounded suspicion on the part of the accuser, the CO can and should exonerate the accused in writing.  The BSA in such a circumstance will conduct its own investigation and determine to take “no action”.  The difference is clear – the accused can receive an explanation and exoneration only from the CO.

Here is an actual example.  A parent of a youth accused scout leaders of child abuse in writing because the youth came back exhausted after a long hike.  In this case the youth was not injured, only tired and thirsty.  And, full permission slips were executed with adequate warning that there was going to be a long hike that day.  The semi-public nature of the child abuse accusation was humiliating and potentially damaging to the careers of scout leaders, some of whom had security clearances.  The leaders self-reported the incident to the Scout Executive and CO (a church).  The church CO conducted its own investigation (involving an attorney) in cooperation with the BSA and issued a fully-exonerating document.  Those scout leaders now have a document protecting themselves.

In the incident you describe, Mr. Pillar did not report the alleged abuse to law enforcement.  Probably because he knows the allegation is either entirely false or a dishonestly exaggerated version of innocent facts.  That the BSA camp staff was made aware of the matter and chose to take “no action” proves how those falsely accused of a YPT incident are not exonerated under the BSA system.  Finally, you do not mention whether the alleged abuse was ever reported to the CO.

Mr. Pillar will continue to hector you with express or implied allegations of child abuse and your reputation will continue to be negatively impacted.  You have three choices:

1.    You can accept his continued hectoring and manage the impact on your reputation.

2.    You can sue him in court for defamation.

3.    You can self-report the original and all subsequent youth abuse allegations of Mr. Pillar to the BSA and CO and request a written report from your CO.  You must assure that your CO is directly and independently involved in the process and issues its written report.

Mr. Pillar will be forced to appear and prove his case to the CO and their attorney with facts.  “Pillars of the community” who use bullying and slanderous techniques to destroy reputations crumble when required to prove their cases.  There is no better justice.

 

Thanks for that @Cburkhardt!!  I did not know of this "accepted" (?) avenue for dealing with such situations.

Would this also apply if an adult on Camp Staff was accused by a youth Camp Staffer of an infraction?  Who would be in the CO role to write such a letter in that case, since both are "employees" of the council at the time?

11 hours ago, qwazse said:

Define “other countries” the largest organizations (India, Indonesia) are segregated. Some of the fastest growing (Pakistan) are unisex. Some of the slowest growing or declining (like ours) are facing negative growth. The most successful associations with blended organization are that way because their royals insisted it be so. Scouts UK has only just recovered its losses in male membership after decades of decline. And that was a result of a concerted effort of their leaders of Girl Guides insisting that everyone play nice.

So, why should a girl AOL lack a troop to crossover? Two causes:

• The president and congress have no interest in making  BSA and GS/USA “play nice” by (at the very least) sharing participation in Jamboree.
• The scout failed to recruit her friends (or enemies) and a trio of caring adults.

It is indeed a serious issue but as far as I can tell it’s not ours to solve until we are demanded to do so by 1) our youth or 2) our elected officials.

 

Third cause:   Council not facilitating, educating/training, supporting the work it takes to administer a Troop

Fourth cause:  Parents not willing to put in the time or effort to create a Troop and mentor youth in through the program.

Fifth cause:  Council not focusing on a healthy unit climate and working to create the needed unit structure.  Lack of a good leadership structure (including pay) needed to recruit, train, support, and retain DE's... which results in a  lack of a solid District Volunteer Staff, Commissioner Corps, etc. etc. etc.

Thanks for opening up your story.  I think you have a good outcome so far.  And it seems as though the Committee stood up for you. (?)  That means they may see things in sort of the same light as you do.  Recommend you have a private chat with the other two Key 3 to confirm.

As someone mentioned in your previous thread, a good idea is to always have an adult buddy with you.  This has saved my behind several times over the past years, in different ways.  IMHO, due to increased screen time (vs face-to-face time), young people (not just Scouts) are becoming less proficient at reading people and interpreting context and meaning.  This means more of these situations are likely to appear.

Any time I am doing stuff with Scouts (other than driving), I try have another adult joined at the hip.  It is difficult, and ofttimes impossible to have them side-by-side (rather than present at the event doing other things).  But, if you can get to that point, you will find you are less concerned about issues like this recurring.

13 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

How do you defend against loose accusations but also protect the vulnerable. 

By adhering to our legal principle of presumption of innocence.

BSA has turned this on its head.  If someone accuses in BSA, you are guilty until proven innocent.  Except, you are never given the Kafkaesque opportunity to prove innocence.  And even some who have been proven innocent are still left on the IVF.

In the case @Eagle94-A1 relates, the Scout accused an adult of "solicitation of a minor" or "unlawful contact of a minor", or some other statutory violation. 

We should take accusations seriously, and clear the air when they are made, because sometimes, they are based on an inexperienced misread of the situation. 

https://www.blackburncenter.org/post/on-believing-victims

BSA mindset appears to be that it can discard adults at will, and suffer no negative consequences.  I would posit this as one of the many reasons, overall, that BSA is failing.

12 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Lone scout learning leadership? 

Citizenship by themselves?  Or do you mean the four merit badges?  

Character as a lone scout?  Is it any different from homeschooling by the parents? 

Fitness by themselves?  Fitness is achieved by being in an active, busy group; not just a merit badge.  

IMHO, a specific sport would be better than the lone scout program.  

Scouting is social.  I'm not against the lone scout for isolated families, but I question the match in this situation.

Recommended reading to help open your aperture a bit...

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/boyscouts/pdf/511-420.pdf

Assuming you mean the Historic Trails Award.

https://www.scouting.org/awards/awards-central/historic-trails/

Yes, completed this multiple times.  We are surrounded by many historic trails around here, fortunately with camping opportunities attached.

However, it need not be one of the trails on the BSA list.  There are literally hundreds of other opportunities for you to meet the requirements if one of the BSA trails is not convenient to you.  

Many state and national historic parks have opportunities for you.  Any place on the National Register of Historic Places would qualify also.

https://www.nps.gov/subjects/nationalregister/index.htm

Sounds like what your are doing is on target.

You may enter the completion in Scoutbook for your Scouts.  No real need to file the application any more.  That is throw back to a time before Scoutbook, when the Registrar would enter these kinds of awards on a Scout's (or Scouter's) record in ScoutNet.

Enjoy!!

6 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

It's okay to work with troubled scouts, but boundaries exist. Scouts that can't control themselves or are a risk to others do need to be separated from the troop.

 

As for lone scout, I always question the value of it. Scout's value is in working with other scouts. Scouting is about community and developing connections. At some point, lone scout sounds more like getting rank than getting value.

2 minutes ago, fred8033 said: It's okay to work with troubled scouts, but boundaries exist. Scouts that can't control themselves or are a risk to others do need to be separated from the troop. As for lone scout, I always question the value of it. Scout's value is in working with other scouts. Scouting is about community and developing connections. At some point, lone scout sounds more like getting rank than getting value. 

 

Character, citizenship, fitness, leadership...

Would helping this Scout with 3 out of 4 be acceptable?

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

An issue totally unespected and out of the blue.  Been in the program since cubs, and other than occasional breaking of something in frustration, never threatening to others.  Something went awry it would seem and his doctors are involved.  It just seems that if we can work with him in some way that does not put others in harms way, or he is proven to be tempered, would Lone Scout be an option.  A lot of "ifs", and not something likely in the books directly.  On the other hand, we have a history of reaching out to troubled youth and giving them a chance if possible.  It just seems a shame to see his efforts to date to be lost.  But, we have to put the others ahead; that is understood.  Thanks for your comments.  Probably one of those untenable situations.

As @mrjohns2 relays, it is entirely up to the council.

Start with the Registrar.  Call and explain the situation.  Ask if there are any Lone Scouts in your council already.  If yes, then they will most likely add this Scout.

If no, ask if the Registrar would support you if you asked for this Scout to be added as a Lone Scout.  Although it is the SE's decision, it is the registrar who will gain the extra workload.  So, if the Registrar is on board, it makes things easier.

If the Registrar declines, then go ahead and call your SE and ask, but expect the answer to be "No".

If "No" then ask the SE if they would support your calling neighboring councils to see if any will accept Lone Scouts.

Keep pushing, courteously, and you will find a way.  

6 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Your guess is as good as mine.  They have a patrol name, but beyond that I am not sure there is anything remotely patrol related.

OK, then you have a camping club, not a Scout Troop.

"The patrol system is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried on. It is the only method." - BP

I would submit this is where you have to start.  

“The formation of the boys into Patrols of from six to eight and training them as separate units each under its own responsible leader is the key to a good Troop." - BP

If you cannot get other leaders to agree to this concept, and to help implement it, then you should leave and find another Troop...one that uses the Patrol Method.

8 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

At some point my kid is going to get fed up and then a new CC will have to be selected. 

What does your son's patrol want to do?  Get another adult, and take them camping, if that's what the Scouts want.  Does not have to be the SM on every trip.

31 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I was made aware on Tuesday our Council isnt doing JTE any more.  That after I had filled out the worksheet. 🙄

@5thGenTexan, you don't need the council...  What level did you get? 

Just order the patches, if you want them, and recognize your Scouts at the level of program they achieved.  We filled out our worksheet, sent it to our FD (we don't have an assigned DE) with a cc to our District Commissioner (we don't have an assigned Commissioner), and ordered our own patches.

Here's a link to Gold:

https://www.scoutshop.org/no-name-provided-656986.html

1 hour ago, ScouterSD said:

Does the insurance company feel that a facility usage or affiliate agreement does not protect the Church?   Sounds 100% opposite to the UMC thinking.

If anything happens on church property, then the church will get dragged into the lawsuit.

"Sue everyone, and let the courts sort it out," says the lawyer corps.  (While the church hemorrhages cash in lawyer fees probably seeks a settlement.)

38 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Teach 'em the CORRECT lyrics....

"" "scuse me, while I kiss this guy....""     = Jimi Hendrix, please call your office......

LOL,

Don't know how they got this, but I remember Scouts singing "Come on Eileen! Oh, I slid on my winks..."

Don't overdo it at first...  Just a tune or two during a lull around the campfire.  Don't make it your show 😜

Make them short...  Don't do 100 bottles of root beer on the wall. 

Don't demand that everyone sing... Youth often don't know the words, so are reluctant to sing.  They have to hear the song many times before they feel comfortable with the words.  Wanna help them?  Print out a few copies and hand them out.  Don't get upset if they wind up in the fire.  In fact, make a game of that.  Print on the bottom of it "Burn Only After Singing!!!" 

Learn Scout Vespers... that's a good one to start with.

Learn America (My Country 'Tis of Thee) or America the Beautiful... 

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

In other non BSA organizations, etc... Resident Camp was contrasted with Day Camp, meaning you stayed for the nights.

Yup!

In a BSA context, I would say the term should apply to overnight camps where you stay in one place the whole time.

49 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

LOL, is the National OA Committee implying that a unit run "resident camp" must comply with NCAP?

They couldn't anyway... NCAP specifically excludes unit camping, and directs it fall under G2SS:

NATIONAL CAMP STANDARDS APPLICABILITY, SA-001

Exclusions. The World Scout Jamboree, National Scout Jamboree, and National Order of the Arrow Conference are mass events subject to additional health and safety requirements specific to those events which are equivalent to or more stringent than the National Camp Standards. Unit activities are subject to the Guide to Safe Scouting.

https://pdscouting.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2022-NCAP-Standards-v2-430-056.pdf

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Q/A: Resident Camping Requirement

 

Q: I have a question about Unit Elections. For the camping requirement of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping does the camping have to be at a BSA owned and operated camp, or can it be a unit long term campout allowed by the council?

A: There has been some confusion over what camping qualifies in meeting the membership requirement for camping. Three factors apply:

Camping must be under the auspices of an approved BSA program.

The decision on what specific camping meets the spirit and intent of the camping requirement rests with the unit leader of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election.

It is preferred that camping requirements be met as part of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election (i.e., troop, crew or ship); however, extenuating circumstances may exist (e.g., in cases where a youth did not have an opportunity to meet the requirement with the unit), that make it appropriate for unit leaders to consider other BSA camping experiences (e.g., a Venturer counting camping nights completed with a troop or camping nights completed while serving as a staff member at a council camp or national high adventure base). In each case, the unit leader must satisfy themselves the spirit and intent of the requirement was met (i.e., it was indeed qualifying outdoor camping).

The term "ship nights" refers to nights during with the individual slept overnight on their ship. The ship need not be underway during that period for the nights to qualify.

This does not say that the resident camp must be at a BSA owned or operated facility. If the national Order of the Arrow committee had wanted to say that, they would have. The language used was very carefully composed. If a unit runs their own long-term resident camp, "under the auspices and standards" of the BSA, it qualifies. The BSA does have very explicit standards for a resident Scout camp, requiring much more than just a week long campout. Your local council camping committee can provide more information on what the current standards are.

Some of the confusion may be caused by an error in a recent printing of the Boy Scout Handbook, which stated the camping had to be at "a local or national council facility", but that is incorrect.

 

https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/resident-camping-requirement

LOL, is the National OA Committee implying that a unit run "resident camp" must comply with NCAP?

Q/A: Resident Camping Requirement

Q: I have a question about Unit Elections. For the camping requirement of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping does the camping have to be at a BSA owned and operated camp, or can it be a unit long term campout allowed by the council?

A: There has been some confusion over what camping qualifies in meeting the membership requirement for camping. Three factors apply:

Camping must be under the auspices of an approved BSA program.

The decision on what specific camping meets the spirit and intent of the camping requirement rests with the unit leader of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election.

It is preferred that camping requirements be met as part of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election (i.e., troop, crew or ship); however, extenuating circumstances may exist (e.g., in cases where a youth did not have an opportunity to meet the requirement with the unit), that make it appropriate for unit leaders to consider other BSA camping experiences (e.g., a Venturer counting camping nights completed with a troop or camping nights completed while serving as a staff member at a council camp or national high adventure base). In each case, the unit leader must satisfy themselves the spirit and intent of the requirement was met (i.e., it was indeed qualifying outdoor camping).

The term "ship nights" refers to nights during with the individual slept overnight on their ship. The ship need not be underway during that period for the nights to qualify.

This does not say that the resident camp must be at a BSA owned or operated facility. If the national Order of the Arrow committee had wanted to say that, they would have. The language used was very carefully composed. If a unit runs their own long-term resident camp, "under the auspices and standards" of the BSA, it qualifies. The BSA does have very explicit standards for a resident Scout camp, requiring much more than just a week long campout. Your local council camping committee can provide more information on what the current standards are.

Some of the confusion may be caused by an error in a recent printing of the Boy Scout Handbook, which stated the camping had to be at "a local or national council facility", but that is incorrect.

https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/resident-camping-requirement

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Your mental gymnastics could come back to bite …

• Philmont trek is a series of overnights interrupted by hikes with full packs.
• Seabase sailing adventures is a series of overnights interrupted by rolling up your bunk, stowing it in the hold, and snorkeling reefs or touring islands.
• We could say the same for extended adventures with dog sledding, cross country skiing, or circus caravans.

Look, let’s clear all of the machinations off the table and do what this forum prattles on incessantly about doing. Be boy led.

Have the scout read the requirements, look at his camping log, and ask him what he thinks should be decided.

OK, still having coffee and waiting for my teenagers to get out of bed, so...

Back to philosophy.  Here's another twist:

Q: Who decides what camping activities qualify for the camping requirement needed for election to the Order of the Arrow?

A: With the camping requirement, as with all other eligibility requirements, it is the unit leader's job to interpret whether a Scout has met the requirement.

As stated in the Guide for Officers and Advisers (2021 revision, page 18):

"Unit Leader Approval.  To become eligible for election, a Scout must be registered with the Boy Scouts of America and have the approval of their unit leader prior to the election. The unit leader must certify their Scout spirit (i.e., their adherence to the Scout Oath and Law and active participation in unit activities). The unit leader must also certify that the nominee meets all specified requirements at the time of this annual election."

Other than defining the length of time needed for a camping activity to be considered a long-term camp*, the National Order of the Arrow Committee leaves the interpretation of the camping requirement to the unit leader.

* A "long-term camp" is one consisting of at least six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping. A "short-term camp" is anything less than that.

https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/camping-requirement-interpretation

Unpack that one 😜

For the letter-of-the-lawyers, define "resident camp"

42 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Have the scout read the requirements, look at his camping log, and ask him what he thinks should be decided.

Love it; will do!

9 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Asked and answered here: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/

Wade through the myriad comments, if you dare.

From the article:

"Short-term campouts provide variety in both preparation and experience, and the Scouts are more likely to have to set up their own tent and take more responsibility for outdoor living skills. A long-term summer camp is still a long-term camp even if the Scout is there for only a portion of the time. It’s an entirely different adventure and usually doesn’t call for the same level of self-reliance required for a short-term camp."

I think we'll count the canoe trek as 5 short-term camping experiences, with a day of canoeing between each one 😜

2 hours ago, UKScouterInCA said:

OK, bit of an aside, but I always found the Req's for the Camping MB weird. The Scout can only claim one long term camping trip (up to 6 nights) and needs 20 nights. But no guidance on what a short term camping trip is. 1 night? 2? 3? 4? 5?. What about a Scout who has done multiple long term camps? It seems weird that they can use a one night car camping trip, but no nights at all from that 12 night Philmont expedition because they already had a summer camp counted? Or does it camp for x nights?

Same reasoning I was questioning, @UKScouterInCA.  It is all poorly worded.  I believe the intent is to have a Scout set up camp multiple times, in a multitude of different settings, and fit into the mindset @qwazse outlined above.

Look at the relaxed OA requirements for camping above.  If you are a letter-of-the-law person like @mrjohns2 , then a Scout could have camped in his own back yard 27-31 May (5 nights in May) and then 01-05 June (5 nights in June) and have been eligible with short term nights.  Never move his tent for this "virtual camping" experience.  Not exactly what we'd be looking for, huh?

2 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Don’t shirk the rules @InquisitiveScouter, it isn’t very obedient of you. Not everyone gets a ribbon, trophy, or sash. 

Not shirking.  But I am a spirit if the law person, rather than a letter of the law type.

56 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

No camping in September, October, or November? I think I see where the problem is. 

Troop was camping.  This Scout is also deeply active in school, sports, band, and church.  I wish every Scout was as well rounded as he.

Don't jump to conclusions without asking about the facts.

You aren't making a very splendid figure @mrjohns2