InquisitiveScouter

4 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

And to give an idea of how bad at this BSA is, or at least how dysfunctional the relationship between National and Councils is, read that C10 memo again:

1. C10 did not have the heads up this was coming so they could already have that product developed and on the shelf waiting, which would have benefited both the Scouts they serve and their own bottom line.
2. Like us, and contrary to what he have been told, C10 had no idea what any of this meant and also believes this policy to be new. Read their language (emphasis added):

• The Circle Ten Council has been reviewing this new information and seeking clarification.
• Through our investigation, we have determined that a “short-term camp”...

 

 

But, wait!  Wasn't all this asked and answered for them back in 2019 via Appendix MM in the 204 page BALOO instructor syallbus buried in the bowels of BSA's website servers?

LOL

You just cannot make this stuff up.

38 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I am the CC for two Troops.  Recently I have been checking on our leadership training and found that a few Committee Members and the SM have not completed their Position Specific Training, SM after a year hasn't even attempted.  

So, the I guess guideline is that this training is supposed to be completed within 30 days of the application being accepted or something to that effect.

 

I am going to bring this up in the next Committee Meeting and strongly suggest everyone gets caught up on the required training for their position.  I am even going to give 30 days get it done.  What do we, the Committee do if these leaders blow it off and laugh while saying they just aren't gonna do it?

 

Why bother with the training?  Because it will help you deliver the best program for your Scouts.  Try to appeal to them that way.  Threats and ultimata in a volunteer organization will never accomplish your ends...

What will you do?  That depends... do you have someone to replace them who is willing to take the training??  (You do not have to be in a position to accomplish the training... if you have someone who wants the position, ask them to complete the training first to show their commitment, then put them in the position.  If only the world was that simple, right?) 

"Enforcement" varies council to council.  Ours says they are like @qwazse's but they have never enforced it.  Honestly, they cannot afford to.  Many units are barely hanging on with the minimum leaders on the charter.  (Scouting according to BSA policies is a complex undertaking.)

The council (and possibly your unit) is better off with an untrained leader, than with no leader in the position at all.  Choose wisely, and best of luck.

Welcome!

On 1/12/2023 at 2:11 PM, JesseMills said:

Howdy all,

I’m just getting plugged in here so I have the resources of this forum to tap when need be!  I scouted long long ago and then worked as a church choir director for awhile concurrently with teaching band & picking up music theatre gigs as a pit musician.  Sadly, the stress of constantly looking for new work got to me and I “went corporate” to be a project manager.  One year in, I found myself missing doing something more meaningful than doing corporate work, so I’m meeting with my local council next week to see how all the skills I developed can be brought to helping out the next generation!  I’m definitely hoping to at least be an MBC (music & theatre among others) and am open to whatever the council says they’re in need of.

Hello again, and happy to have a place to look up y’all’s collective wisdom and discussions!

Jesse, more than anything, your council needs adult leaders who will take Scouts camping and deliver the promise of adventure at the unit level.  This is the heart of Scouting.

If you do not have the heart to take them into the woods, then be an active committee member for a unit, and provide administrative support for those who do take on the task of outdoor adventure.  Anything you can do to lighten their load will help them deliver more adventure for the youth.   Examples include managing all the Troop medical forms, helping to mentor a youth in a support role (like Webmaster, Historian, Librarian, etc.), being a reliable member of Boards of Review, managing adult training for the unit, etc., etc.

And, you should ALWAYS be a Merit Badge Counselor. 😛 

If you believe you cannot fill any of those unit roles, post again for other ideas... 

Welcome!

If you had a parent signed application back then (even if the parent held on to it before giving it back to you) then you have what I have heard two different registrars refer to as "intent to join."  (I don't know if this is some official registrar term or not.)

If the application was dated three months ago, then the registrar could back date the registration to that date, and charge the unit the commensurate back-dated fees.  Then, all activities since that time are creditable.

Only requirements completed on or after the joining date are creditable.

This WILL be a potential problem down the road.  Make sure all ranks, badges, etc., approved in the system show a date on or after joining date.  This condition is an automatic kick-back on an Eagle Scout application.

That is the "letter of the law" answer.

The "spirit of the law" answer is what @MikeS72 @SiouxRanger@mrjohns2 are about... give the Scout credit, and adjust dates as necessary, if the registrar has already entered a conflicting joining date (after your three months) in the system.

On 2/25/2023 at 12:57 PM, SiouxRanger said:

Our unit, in my experience, has never formally "vetted" anyone.  If an issue with respect to some adult is noticed, the leadership generally discusses it and formulates a plan to address it.

All that background stuff printed on the adult application is information provided for the CO to vet (and make a decision whether to accept or deny) the person.

See the blurb above the CO signature block.  "APPROVALS FOR UNIT ADULTS: I have reviewed this application and the responses to any questions answered “Yes,” and have made any follow-up inquiries necessary to be satisfied that the applicant possesses the moral, educational, and emotional qualities to be an adult leader in the BSA."

Your CO and unit should really be exercising "due diligence" in vetting people. 

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

@MattR"As others have said, what's that much different between one night and two?"     One? 😂

 

Same :   Why can't MBCs go camping with a troop and need to be a paying volunteer?    They have the same YPT and other required clearances as a paying volunteer.     Cash? 😏

The official answer is : MBCs are not vetted by your CO/COR.  Only unit registered adults (CO approved) are supposed to be camping with your unit.

That is why inter-unit events are to be cleared by the council.

Now, do you think the council really does anything for these inter-unit events, other than tacking on a fee?

And if you could get your CO to approve the MBC, you ought be good to go.  But I'd get that in writing, just to have your bases covered.

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

We created a 501c3 a couple of years ago. We are about as small as you can get with <$200 of expenses and no donations for the first year or 2. When a volunteer’s employer checked recently, we were on the list! That was our first real donation. It does have to be a registered 501c3. Many churches aren’t since they are exempt from the paperwork if they are a member of a larger denomination that is. So, the larger denomination would be in the list, but not the unit. 

Corporate finance office usually just has to check that the EIN is a valid 501c3 with IRS.  It takes a few keystrokes...

1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I am not sure its that easy.  When they let her do her donations, there is a website with approved charities to choose from.  If its not on that list, they won't match.

You know... a corporate thing.

So, she checked to see if your CO was on the list??

35 minutes ago, Alec27 said:

Morning All, 

Where can I find the info about what awards my troop leaders currently hold, such as award knots, service pins, recognitions, etc.  One of my Scouters, a man that has been with our Troop for almost 2 decades is a very modest gentleman.  He has served as SM, ASM, UAC, CC, COR and only wears the bare minimum on his Class A.  I'm trying to figure out if he has been awarded things in the past and is just too modest to wear them on his uniform, or maybe nobody over the years nominated him for anything through the council.  If the ladder is the case, I'd really love to put him in for the awards he rightfully should have.  Is there a way that I can see what awards or recognitions he has earned / been given somewhere in my.scouting, or SB or somewhere else.  I have pretty good access to those platforms as a Troop Admin and UAC.  Thank You All !  

You must call your Council Registrar to ask this info.  The Registrar has access to all recorded adult awards.

Depending on how you sell it (  ) your Registrar might not provide the info directly (like a list).  That is, for example, you may only be able to ask, "Does our Unit Leader have the "Award of Merit'"?  The Registrar may tell you Yes or No, and then you can move forward on that info.

In fact, that is the course I would recommend... Pick an award you think your leader qualifies for 

https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/what-cub-scouts-earn/adult-awards-and-recognition/

Scouter's Training Award

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Scouters-Training-Award-for-Scout-BSA-Leaders.pdf

Scoutmaster's Key

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/511-054_WB.pdf

Unit Leader Award of Merit

https://www.scouting.org/programs/venturing/venturing-awards-and-advancement/leadership/unit-leader-award-of-merit/

District Award of Merit

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33720.pdf

etc, etc, etc

Be advised, your leader has been around long enough that he may have an award already, but it is not recorded.  That's OK!  Recognize him again, and work with the Registrar to make sure it is recorded!! 

Or, you could pick an award, and ask him if he has it.  If he says yes, work with them to figure out an award date and ask the Registrar to put it in his record.

Thank you for doing this!!

Just now, malraux said:

As per that link, if overnight always meant a single night, then multi-day backpacking trips are against the g2ss.

Spot on!

17 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Next year, have your wife's company make the donation to your CO.  Coordinate with your CO ahead of time to ask about this and ask for the funds to be passed on to the Troop.

This is perfectly fine, but your council will be livid.

@5thGenTexan, to further clarify, you need to coordinate that with your CO because you need their EIN (and address and contact info) to provide to your wife's company.  The company needs that info to make the donation, and for tax reporting purposes.

Also, ask your wife to find out how the company makes the donation.  If by paper check, mailed, then that's probably all the info you need.  If they do electronic deposit, then you might be able to have them send it directly to your unit bank account by providing ABA Routing and Account numbers.

On 10/10/2019 at 3:54 PM, RichardB said:

Are you referring to this chart??

It does not clarify.  The stipulation that Scouts, BSA may have "Weekend Campouts" is distinguished from the "Pack Overnighters" only in that Pack events must be at "Council-Designated Locations Only".  Throw in the Family Camping for Webelos Scouts block, and it only adds to this confusion.

Here is the official link to the chart, BTW:

 https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-686.pdf

That document has no links in G2SS pointing to it, that I can find.  (Would someone else check this, please?)

The only document I can see linked from G2SS is this one:

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf

Which, again, adds no clarity.

Back then, the other reference to this was pointed out by @malraux, which is still a valid link:

https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/activities/cub-scout-camping/

Now, that guidance DOES add clarity.  However, burying this significant restriction in only a few obscure locations is a poor practice.  Something like that ought to spelled out unequivocally in the G2SS.

3 minutes ago, MattR said:

In defense of @RichardB, there's a chart in the 2019 post that does clarify all of this, so don't shoot the messenger.

That said, we did ignore that rule because having webelos (aol now) join us for a campout with their parent was the best recruitment method we had. Going up for the day or just one night doesn't compare because the cub is not integrated as well. Other than sleeping we put him in a patrol. They loved it.

As others have said, what's that much different between one night and two?

 

And, he is not a "messenger." I believe this @RichardB is THE BSA Director Environmental Health and Safety,

and his LinkedIn profile describes his job as including, among other things, "Provides content and editorial leadership for Scouting Safely website and EHS Publications. Provides safety and health interpretations for standards, rules and policies and procedures. " (emphasis added)

If that is not his position, then I'll be happy to withdraw the arrow from the messenger's chest. 😛 

https://youtu.be/DgK25o__0Hw

Are you sure someone filed your registration with the council?

You can tell, if you have an account on my.scouting.org

The phone app for scoutbook has little functionality, IMO

Best to go to the website and use the online application.

Have you logged in there?

5 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

With our Troop fees figured in, it's $415 a year for our family.  Before trainings, MB fees, camp fees, all the stuff I buy for the Troops and don't ask for reimbursement.   And my wife's company matches charitable donations, so FOS got $500 from us this year.

Next year, have your wife's company make the donation to your CO.  Coordinate with your CO ahead of time to ask about this and ask for the funds to be passed on to the Troop.

This is perfectly fine, but your council will be livid.

4 minutes ago, curious_scouter said:

This is likely.  Fair is fair though, if by this rule the # of paid leaders increases notably - the fees should decrease similarly.  They won't. 

Hey, man, just drink the kool-aid and pay the fees.  Gotta FOS!! (Fund Our Salaries)

29 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

What I'm saying is that people who only have experience with others like themselves and don't see differences make assumptions based on their own experiences of similarity.

And here you are, making an assumption about "people who only have experience with others like themselves..."

That is exactly the kind of gross generalization and stereotyping that we are opposed to.  Physician, heal thyself.

Deal with people individually.  It is the only way...

29 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

You hear things like "I treat everyone the same",

I don't hear this... because no one treats everyone the same.  We all act differently around different people.  I do not treat everyone the same.  But I do strive to treat everyone fairly.   There is a huge difference.  I do not treat a 17 year old like I treat an 11 year old.  I do not speak to women the same way I speak to men.  I do not treat my elders like I treat my peers, or those junior to me... and on and on and on... 

We are and act differently depending on with whom it is we are interacting.  This is a psychological behavior called "self-monitoring"  https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-self-monitoring-5179838

And, just like any psychological behavior, it occurs on a spectrum.  Too much or too little self-monitoring can lead to harm to self and others.

6 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

I think more importantly is "why not?". For the GTSS to have real buy in, all restrictions should have at their core articulable rationale for all restrictions. All restrictions, rules etc... must be written succinctly to not require a 19 page FAQ attempting to explain how to follow them. 

If any appear to be arbitrary (or worse) then those tasked with implementing the gtss will  ignore parts they decide are arbitrary, "up for interpretation", or just plain ridiculous. This makes the gtss ultimately just a list of suggestions. This failure is owned by those who penned it without meaningful buy in from those tasked to implement it. 

@DuctTape for National Commissioner!  (It's been a while, so it needed saying again 😛 )

12 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Interesting post. I agree with the first paragraph, but based from my experiences, have a different opinions on the rest. I guess different experiences lead to different biases.

Barry

Just remember, Barry... You are unique!  (Just like everyone else  )

There is a deep danger in focusing on "identities."  The result is a descent into tribalism.  (We could improve the merit badge by removing this term and "equity" from the line-up.)

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/social-empathy/201903/when-tribalism-goes-bad

Instead, we should craft questions in the discussion with Scouts along these lines:

- Research an event or situation in US history where a person or group of people were discriminated against due to a trait which was innate. (skin color, height, sex, intelligence, physical ability, handedness, etc.) Explain what happened and the outcome.  Are things different now?  Why or why not?  Relate this to the Scout Oath and Scout Law. (Put this in Citizenship in the Nation.)

- Research an event or situation in US history where a person or group of people were discriminated against due to a characteristic which was acquired.  (such as religion, language, culture, political affiliation, education, economic status, etc.)   Explain what happened and the outcome.  Are things different now?  Why or why not?  Relate this to the Scout Oath and Scout Law. (Put this in Citizenship in the Nation.)

- Research an event or situation world history (excluding the US) where a person or group of people were discriminated against due to a trait which was innate. (skin color, height, sex, intelligence, physical ability, handedness, etc.) Explain what happened and the outcome.  Are things different now?  Why or why not?  Relate this to the Scout Oath and Scout Law. (Put this in Citizenship in the World.)

- Research an event or situation in world history (excluding the US) where a person or group of people were discriminated against due to a characteristic which was acquired.  (such as religion, language, culture, political affiliation, education, economic status, etc.)   Explain what happened and the outcome.  Are things different now?  Why or why not?  Relate this to the Scout Oath and Scout Law. (Put this in Citizenship in the World.)

Until we start viewing people as unique and individual creations, we will never reach an egalitarian society.  Never.  (For example, race is a social construct, and has no basis in the science of genetics.  And as long as we "focus" on it, it will be to our detriment.)

10 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Pros  allowed it to happen because it was already planned and no notice that the policy was being reinstated went out to them in advance.

No notice.  So, the councils had no input to the decision-making.  Sound familiar?

2 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

"within reason"???

Atheists?

3 hours ago, RichardB said:

Oh, also - how can and asked and answered question in 2019 still be under debate?   

 

Unsatisfactory.

Several observations:

1.  In reviewing the 2019 posts and your responses, you never answer the question at hand.  You simply post a definition of "overnight" which in no way enlightens the questioning audience. (And you have repeated that here.)

2.  You post a link to an instructor syllabus which is now defunct, therefore invalid to answer the question.

3.  There are 72 instances of the word "overnight" in the currently available BALOO manual (2017 printing, see link).  I reviewed each of them, and there is no clarification that a single night experience is dictated.  Your previous post (at least the info in the link) seems to point to a 2018 version of the syllabus, so I dug up a copy of that too by searching for the pub number with "18" in it the identifier.  (links to both are here:)

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/510-033(17)baloo.pdf

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/510-03318-BALOO_web_v2.pdf

There are 78 instances of "overnighter" in the 2018 syllabus.  Again, nothing limiting it to a single night in the context of any of the instruction.

Appendix MM simply lists a "Sample Pack Camping Schedule" for a one night excursion.  Nowhere is there a prescription that limits packs to this type of schedule.  Could you see how, in a 204-page syllabus, where this is only potentially  intimated on a one-page "sample", and not definitively spelled out anywhere else in the text, that this policy of a "single night camping trip limitation"  is puzzling to anyone? 

BTW, BOTH are posted on the official BSA website.  See notes above relating to multiple versions of policy documents.  Same condemnation applies here.  (Also, when you Google "BALOO Syllabus"  the number one return is the 2017 link.  Nowhere in those search returns is a hit on the 2018 syllabus.  Even when you search "BALOO Syllabus 2018" you get no valid hits. You have to search specifically for "510-03318" to get that version.  So, what do you think the average Cub Leader out there is gonna get in their searches?)

4.  Even your lack of a direct answer in this thread is puzzling.  Are you deliberately trying to be ambiguous?

So, please answer this question directly:

Is it National BSA policy that Cub Scout pack overnight experiences are limited to one single night only?

It was only a matter of time before the pot was stirred again 😛

BTW, slide 34:

15. How will you make sure that the merit badge is achieving its objectives? Like all BSA programs, we will continuously evaluate and improve the Citizenship in Society merit badge based on feedback shared by those within the Scouting program.

Anybody been asked for any feedback?  Anyone see an avenue mentioned in the slide show to provide feedback?

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/diversity_equity_and_inclusion/Citizenship-in-Society-Merit-Badge-Counselor-Guide-2021.pdf

P.S.  They don't care about your feedback...

19 hours ago, RichardB said:

 

Cub Packs or Webelos / AOL Dens can organize Overnight activities, at council designated locations, with a BALOO trained leader.  This is neither a new nor changed age appropriate requirement.    It does appear that the intent of overnight, included in BALOO training: https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/510-03318-BALOO_web_v2.pdf, on the Cub Scout Page:   https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/activities/cub-scout-camping/  has been clarified by this update.  It's been in place decades.   

Councils can run longer Cub Scout camping following the National Camp Accreditation Standards.   But units remain limited to overnight opportunities.  Perhaps this is the source of confusion.  

Please pass some messages to the G2SS writing team:

1.  Hire a good communicator.

2.  Don't write so that you can be understood; write so that you can't be misunderstood.  (Taft)  see @scoutldr post above, for example.

3.  Send your draft policies to someone outside the National organization, preferably to someone that your policies will affect (and who has to comply with them).  Let them read them and then (in a verbal conversation) have them tell you what they read in their own words with some concrete examples of impact to their unit operations.  If they cannot explain it back to you logically and apply your policy correctly, as you intend it, then you have missed the mark.  Try again. 

4.  Never have two different versions of your policies on the official BSA page.  Currently, the download version is still the Feb 2022 version, versus the online version, which is the (now) 2023 version.  Although the caveat about this is on the website, this is unprofessional, and the practice should end.  These two official sources should (must??) always be synchronized.  It is not difficult to update the pdf and post the new version for download.